Birth Certificate question

[slyster]

1 hour ago, Homosassa said:

OP, if you were born in Maryland, make sure the birth certificate is not Maryland's cereal box top version that is issued at birth or issued unless one requests the full form.

 

The box top is not acceptable, even to Maryland DMV, for anyone requiring a birth certificate for ID purposes.

 

We needed to obtain the full version for my daughter. Because we lived in Howard County (had just moved from Severn), it was easy to go into Baltimore and obtain the full form.

 

I do have to say the certified copy is embarrassing to show anyone. The clerk who had to pull the information and type the information on the form made an embarrassing amount of typos with corrections.  For a state that ranks so high in the country for standards of education, it look like something that might have been issued in the state that ranks at the bottom.

I used this particular BC 2001-2008.  I got my passport in 2009 and I haven't had to use that BC since.  It was accepted on previous cruises.  

[ONECRUISER]

2 hours ago, slyster said:

I used this particular BC 2001-2008.  I got my passport in 2009 and I haven't had to use that BC since.  It was accepted on previous cruises.  

Lot of Changes happened/been coming 2005-now. One of Largest changes is Million's Driver's Licences will be no good to Fly. Multiple States have issue Real ID Driver's Licence which I think is mandatory Oct 2020 now. Already had Enhanced for years but Daughter and Mom got new ones this yr

Edited July 23, 2019 by ONECRUISER

[sparks1093]

41 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

Lot of Changes happened/been coming 2005-now. One of Largest changes is Million's Driver's Licences will be no good to Fly. Multiple States have issue Real ID Driver's Licence which I think is mandatory Oct 2020 now. Already had Enhanced for years but Daughter and Mom got new ones this yr

There may have been a lot of changes but there have been no changes regarding what is accepted on a closed loop cruise for a US citizen.

[ONECRUISER]

6 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

There may have been a lot of changes but there have been no changes regarding what is accepted on a closed loop cruise for a US citizen.

Well I did get my then Wife on a Cruise post 9/11 without a pictured ID. Just her BC and out ML. Not going happen now... Did have get my Enhanced ID for Open Circuit Cruise I sailed 6 out of last 7yrs

Edited July 23, 2019 by ONECRUISER

[retiredgram]

11 hours ago, brillohead said:

It better be acceptable, because it's the only version that I'll ever be able to have. 

 

I was adopted, and a "fake" birth certificate was issued by the state listing my adoptive mother and adoptive father as my parents at birth, and it's only available as the white-text-on-black-background version.  

It's what I sent in for my passport to be issued, and was accepted just fine.
 

This is what I have under same circumstances and it was accepted for my passport which was issued before 9/11.

[sparks1093]

24 minutes ago, ONECRUISER said:

Well I did get my then Wife on a Cruise post 9/11 without a pictured ID. Just her BC and out ML. Not going happen now... Did have get my Enhanced ID for Open Circuit Cruise I sailed 6 out of last 7yrs

The final regulations regarding what may be used for a closed loop cruise were issued over 10 years ago and they haven't changed since then.

[ONECRUISER]

1 hour ago, sparks1093 said:

The final regulations regarding what may be used for a closed loop cruise were issued over 10 years ago and they haven't changed since then.

Yes, my initial post was since 2006 they changed many travel requirements. Some were implemented, many delayed. Was many discussions on Cruise Critic back then, been on here since 1997. In my 4th decade of Cruising...

Edited July 23, 2019 by ONECRUISER

[SuiteLady]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 2:37 PM, sparks1093 said:

Your birth certificate needs to have parents' names on it for getting a passport, not so for using it for a cruise as any official birth certificate will work (many states offer several options for birth certificates, including wallet sized ones).

I stand corrected!  Yes, you are right because I used my "old" birth certificate on prior cruises!  It was when I went to get my passport that they had issues and made me get the one with parent's info on it!  Thanks for that catch, as I would not want to mislead anyone and give them more to worry about before their cruise!!  My bad......

[SRF]

11 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

The final regulations regarding what may be used for a closed loop cruise were issued over 10 years ago and they haven't changed since then.

 

It is not always about regs changing, but it can be about interpretation of those regs.

 

And actually, I am sure the regulations have changed, but the LAW has not.  And the law is always very vague.  Individual agencies write the regs, based on the law.

 

And yes, there has been a change in what is accepted as a valid BC.  It MUST be a government issued BC now.  

 

Even in this thread, people have stated that they have cruised with hospital BC, and several posts have stated where those trying to continue to use them, have had issues.

[sparks1093]

7 hours ago, SRF said:

 

It is not always about regs changing, but it can be about interpretation of those regs.

 

And actually, I am sure the regulations have changed, but the LAW has not.  And the law is always very vague.  Individual agencies write the regs, based on the law.

 

And yes, there has been a change in what is accepted as a valid BC.  It MUST be a government issued BC now.  

 

Even in this thread, people have stated that they have cruised with hospital BC, and several posts have stated where those trying to continue to use them, have had issues.

The law simply mandated DHS and State to write regulations covering the matter and the final regulations therefore have the force of law. I have no doubt that hospital birth certificates have been used. CBP verifies everyone's information during the cruise using a multitude of government databases which is one of the reasons that copies are allowed, the original record will be checked. (And that's one of the reasons that birth certificates for adults aren't allowed at border crossings, it would take too long to verify them all and that would cause wait times to skyrocket.) 

[SRF]

Virtually ALL laws are like that. They direct the appropriate agencies to promulgate regulations. 

 

And regulations are easier to update/change than laws.  And both are subject to interpretation.  But the agencies involved, and sometimes by the courts.

 

Which is why you cannot say that X is allowed, because it used to be and the law has not changed.

 

Take a look at the Federal Register to see how many regulations are changed DAILY.  And for some regulations, there are letters of interpretation, that change how the existing regulations are enforced.

[sparks1093]

17 hours ago, SRF said:

Virtually ALL laws are like that. They direct the appropriate agencies to promulgate regulations. 

 

And regulations are easier to update/change than laws.  And both are subject to interpretation.  But the agencies involved, and sometimes by the courts.

 

Which is why you cannot say that X is allowed, because it used to be and the law has not changed.

 

Take a look at the Federal Register to see how many regulations are changed DAILY.  And for some regulations, there are letters of interpretation, that change how the existing regulations are enforced.

Yes, but if a change is to take place it must be announced beforehand (60 days is the number that comes to mind). 

[SRF]

17 minutes ago, sparks1093 said:

Yes, but if a change is to take place it must be announced beforehand (60 days is the number that comes to mind). 

 

Yes, but do you read the Federal Register daily?

 

That is where changes are announced.

 

And if you really want to get into it, they publish a notice of a a proposed change in the Federal Register, and any one may make comments for or against, or propose changes to the proposed regulation.  You can do so online, via letter, or by actually attending the hearing and making comments for the record in person.  I have done all 3 ways.

 

ALL comments must be addressed when the determine the final regulation.  The comments and the response will also be published in the Federal Register.

 

And there are MANY regulations that are changed every day.

 

And again, the regulation may not change, but the interpretation may, without any notice or publication.

 

So the law may say ID to determine citizenship.  The regulation may say that a BC does this.   But if it only says a birth certificate, the interpretation may be changed, with NO rule making process, to say that only a government issued BC is acceptable.  It depends on how the law and the rule has been written.  And there are a number of cases, where the official, published (based on a info request) interpretation was not supported by the law or regulation.   I was involved in one such instance, and got the interpretation changed, without court involvement.

 

I have been dealing with Federal Law and regulations (and making comments and getting things changed) for over 35 years now.  

[sparks1093]

13 minutes ago, SRF said:

 

Yes, but do you read the Federal Register daily?

 

That is where changes are announced.

 

And if you really want to get into it, they publish a notice of a a proposed change in the Federal Register, and any one may make comments for or against, or propose changes to the proposed regulation.  You can do so online, via letter, or by actually attending the hearing and making comments for the record in person.  I have done all 3 ways.

 

ALL comments must be addressed when the determine the final regulation.  The comments and the response will also be published in the Federal Register.

 

And there are MANY regulations that are changed every day.

 

And again, the regulation may not change, but the interpretation may, without any notice or publication.

 

So the law may say ID to determine citizenship.  The regulation may say that a BC does this.   But if it only says a birth certificate, the interpretation may be changed, with NO rule making process, to say that only a government issued BC is acceptable.  It depends on how the law and the rule has been written.  And there are a number of cases, where the official, published (based on a info request) interpretation was not supported by the law or regulation.   I was involved in one such instance, and got the interpretation changed, without court involvement.

 

I have been dealing with Federal Law and regulations (and making comments and getting things changed) for over 35 years now.  

No, I don't read the FR everyday but I suspect that any change to the interpretation of the WHTI regulations would be made far and wide since so many are affected by it. The regulations do only say "birth certificate" and AFAIK that has always been interpreted as "government issued". This thread is the first one that I recall participating in where people have said that they used a hospital one. In any event for the OP the birth certificate that she used before is still valid for use now.

Edited July 26, 2019 by sparks1093

[slyster]

I got my passport yesterday!  Hopefully this thread helps others here though.

[sparks1093]

6 minutes ago, slyster said:

I got my passport yesterday!  Hopefully this thread helps others here though.

Woot! Have a great cruise!