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gerelmx

Am I Violating the Jones Act?

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, travelbug4 said:

Just found a discussion on this subject from back in 2017 on cruisecritic.  So interesting...all of it. 

 

Consensus on that thread (what I read, not my opinion) was that you had to be off the ship for 24 hours (in your case between cruise 2 and 3) or travel on a different ship from Vancouver to LA to not violate the PVSA laws.  Or the plan that they suggested which is to join the ship the next day in Victoria (which I guess fulfills the 24 hour requirement)?..................................

 

 

 

But the situation there is entirely different from the situation being discussed here in this thread.

 

Notice the key statement:  " I was booked on a 1-day repo cruise from Seattle to Vancouver, and the following 6-day sailing from Vancouver to LA." 

 

In that situation the passenger wanted to board the ship initially at Seattle and disembark at LA,  which would be a violation of the PVSA because both are US ports.

 

In the situation being discussed here, the OP would initially be boarding the ship in Vancouver (a foreign port) so the PVSA does not apply. 

             

Edited by fleckle

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OP has escalated to CelebrityOneTouch which should at least get them a phone call from someone at the executive level to help direct them and TA to the right place within Celebrity either for resolution or a detailed answer on why they think this is a violation.  Since they sent the email on Friday afternoon from my experience I wouldn't expect a response from them until Monday/Tuesday timeframe.

 

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3 hours ago, fleckle said:

 

But the situation there is entirely different from the situation being discussed here in this thread.

 

Notice the key statement:  " I was booked on a 1-day repo cruise from Seattle to Vancouver, and the following 6-day sailing from Vancouver to LA." 

 

In that situation the passenger wanted to board the ship initially at Seattle and disembark at LA,  which would be a violation of the PVSA because both are US ports.

 

In the situation being discussed here, the OP would initially be boarding the ship in Vancouver (a foreign port) so the PVSA does not apply. 

             

 

Correct. Amazing how many people keep posting erroneous information. The OP is starting their voyage in a foreign port, hence PVSA does not even apply. Simple as that. Hopefully the OP is able to get through to someone at Celebrity with a basic understanding of the PVSA and the motivation/authority to follow through and fix the mistake that was made in incorrectly flagging the cruise as a violation. Crazy this is taking so long to be resolved; is not a grey area in the least, it is 100% not a violation of the PVSA. Fingers crossed the OP posts good news tomorrow. 

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On 8/3/2019 at 6:11 PM, chengkp75 said:

Just to add to your knowledge, Canada has a similar act to both the Jones Act and PVSA, the "Coastal Trading Act" which limits coastwise traffic between Canadian ports to Canadian vessels.  The restrictions on the vessels is less than the US Acts, but the fines are exponentially higher.

 

Does the law not apply to passengers, because there's a very clear violation if it does.  By combining legs 1 and 2 and disembarking early, gerelmx will be boarding in Vancouver and disembarking in Victoria.  This would be a cruise between two different Canadian ports, and if the Canadian law is similar to the PVSA would be in violation.  The only way the whole itinerary works without violation in either country is with all 3 legs combined.

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The question is how were the 3 B2B cruises booked. If it was booked as one cruise, it is not B2B, it is one cruise and PSVA does not apply. If it was booked as three B2B cruises it probably does apply. We took a Celebrity cruise in the Med. We began and ended in Barcelona. It was 4 B2B 7 day cruises. At the end of each 7 days, we had to get a new cruise card and get off the ship, turn around and re-board. It was 4 cruises that just happened to be B2B.

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9 minutes ago, timf2001 said:

 

Does the law not apply to passengers, because there's a very clear violation if it does.  By combining legs 1 and 2 and disembarking early, gerelmx will be boarding in Vancouver and disembarking in Victoria.  This would be a cruise between two different Canadian ports, and if the Canadian law is similar to the PVSA would be in violation.  The only way the whole itinerary works without violation in either country is with all 3 legs combined.

I don't know details of the Canadian law, but I don't believe the situation you are laying out here pertains to the OP.  So, if the Canadian law is similar to the United States PVSA, I doubt the proposed workaround would cause a problem.

  • OP is boarding leg 1 in Vancouver and disembarking leg 2 in Vancouver.  They are not disembarking early in Victoria, as neither leg 1 or leg 2 call on the port of Victoria.
  • Leg 3 departs Vancouver on Oct 13, but the workaround he has been given is to leave the ship the night of Oct 13 and re-board the next day in Victoria.  So OP is boarding leg 3 a day late, not disembarking leg 2 a day early.

In addition, as you have said, the entire B2B2B three leg itinerary does not violate the United States PVSA.

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22 minutes ago, Rudy888 said:

The question is how were the 3 B2B cruises booked. If it was booked as one cruise, it is not B2B, it is one cruise and PSVA does not apply. If it was booked as three B2B cruises it probably does apply. 

I don't believe any of this matters for the PVSA. @chengkp75 provided an excellent explanation in post 36.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Jersey42 said:

I don't know details of the Canadian law, but I don't believe the situation you are laying out here pertains to the OP.  So, if the Canadian law is similar to the United States PVSA, I doubt the proposed workaround would cause a problem.

  • OP is boarding leg 1 in Vancouver and disembarking leg 2 in Vancouver.  They are not disembarking early in Victoria, as neither leg 1 or leg 2 call on the port of Victoria.
  • Leg 3 departs Vancouver on Oct 13, but the workaround he has been given is to leave the ship the night of Oct 13 and re-board the next day in Victoria.  So OP is boarding leg 3 a day late, not disembarking leg 2 a day early.

In addition, as you have said, the entire B2B2B three leg itinerary does not violate the United States PVSA.

 

 

My mistake, I had the order of the ports mixed up.  You are correct that it would just be a round-trip to Vancouver and then a one-way Victoria to LA, which are both legal.

 

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1 hour ago, timf2001 said:

 

Does the law not apply to passengers, because there's a very clear violation if it does.  By combining legs 1 and 2 and disembarking early, gerelmx will be boarding in Vancouver and disembarking in Victoria.  This would be a cruise between two different Canadian ports, and if the Canadian law is similar to the PVSA would be in violation.  The only way the whole itinerary works without violation in either country is with all 3 legs combined.

 

The PVSA does not apply to Canada; it is a US law. While many countries have cabotage laws, it is quite rare for them to impact cruises. I have never heard of a Canadian cabotage law impacting a cruise. 

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28 minutes ago, Gonzo70 said:

 

The PVSA does not apply to Canada; it is a US law. While many countries have cabotage laws, it is quite rare for them to impact cruises. I have never heard of a Canadian cabotage law impacting a cruise. 

How many cruise lines cruise from one Canadian port to another Canadian port?  I certainly haven't seen any scheduled by the majors.  So it very well could be impacting how cruise lines schedule their ships.

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4 hours ago, timf2001 said:

 

Does the law not apply to passengers, because there's a very clear violation if it does.  By combining legs 1 and 2 and disembarking early, gerelmx will be boarding in Vancouver and disembarking in Victoria.  This would be a cruise between two different Canadian ports, and if the Canadian law is similar to the PVSA would be in violation.  The only way the whole itinerary works without violation in either country is with all 3 legs combined.

No, because the Canadian act does not require a "distant foreign port" only a foreign port in the voyage.

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Update

I receive a email from my TA, X approved the late embarkation in Victoria, Also CELEBRITY CRUISES INC MIR  charge to my CC $66.32 MXN aprox $3.50 USCy

 

I don't receive any additional document and/or instructions  for the late boarding.

 

I'm still waiting for the answer to my One Touch email send on August 1

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Gonzo70 said:

 

The PVSA does not apply to Canada; it is a US law. While many countries have cabotage laws, it is quite rare for them to impact cruises. I have never heard of a Canadian cabotage law impacting a cruise. 

It is rare for a SCHEDULED cruise to be impacted by any cabotage law from any country, since the cruise lines won't schedule a cruise that violates the law. It is only when passengers combine cruises, that potential violations happen.

There was a recent thread where someone wanted to cruise from Quebec and get off early in Halifax, and was denied because of the Coasting Trading Act.

Edited by chengkp75

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We were told we could not cruise from Hawaii -to Ensenada, Mexico then stay on the ship from Mexico to Vancouver as it violated the Jones Act.  We even offered to get off in Victoria but they refused to let us stay on.  This was about 5 yrs ago with Celebrity.

they are apparently fined & it all starts with the manifestation the beginning of the cruise.  Good luck!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, gerelmx said:

Update

I receive a email from my TA, X approved the late embarkation in Victoria, Also CELEBRITY CRUISES INC MIR  charge to my CC $66.32 MXN aprox $3.50 USCy

 

I don't receive any additional document and/or instructions  for the late boarding.

 

I'm still waiting for the answer to my One Touch email send on August 1

 

This matter has needlessly been dragging on for 6 days now and it keeps becoming more and more complicated and absurd.

 

You should contact Celebrity Cruises to have them take your reservation away from the incompetent travel agent so that you can deal directly with Celebrity yourself. 

Then their Resolutions Department can correct the error and you will be able to enjoy a wonderful cruise without any of this needless extraneous nonsense or expense.

 

Also contact your credit card company to have that unnecessary charge removed. 

 

A competent travel agent would have contacted Celebrity immediately upon receiving the email cited in your first post and would have had the entire matter resolved correctly without even needing to involve you in it at all.

 

We are all rooting for you and hoping this ridiculous and unnecessary ordeal will soon be over so you can put it behind you and enjoy a wonderful cruise without any further complications.

               

Edited by varoo

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1 hour ago, If only said:

We were told we could not cruise from Hawaii -to Ensenada, Mexico then stay on the ship from Mexico to Vancouver as it violated the Jones Act.  We even offered to get off in Victoria but they refused to let us stay on.  This was about 5 yrs ago with Celebrity.

they are apparently fined & it all starts with the manifestation the beginning of the cruise.  Good luck!

 

Did the second leg end in Seattle or Alaska? Ending a cruise in Canada (regardless if Vancouver or Victoria) would not violate the PVSA (again Jones Act is the wrong act). However if the second leg of the back-to-back was scheduled to end in Seattle, WA or in an Alaskan port, then the itinerary would violate the PVSA (assuming the ship only stopped in Mexico, a near foreign port, and not Colombia or some distant foreign port - i.e. a port outside of North America). Celebrity might opt to not allow people to book a back-to-back with the first leg starting in Hawaii and the second leg ending in Seattle or an Alaskan port even if the cruiser was willing to end the voyage early and debark in a Canadian port along the way.

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2 minutes ago, Gonzo70 said:

 

Did the second leg end in Seattle or Alaska? Ending a cruise in Canada (regardless if Vancouver or Victoria) would not violate the PVSA (again Jones Act is the wrong act). However if the second leg of the back-to-back was scheduled to end in Seattle, WA or in an Alaskan port, then the itinerary would violate the PVSA (assuming the ship only stopped in Mexico, a near foreign port, and not Colombia or some distant foreign port - i.e. a port outside of North America). Celebrity might opt to not allow people to book a back-to-back with the first leg starting in Hawaii and the second leg ending in Seattle or an Alaskan port even if the cruiser was willing to end the voyage early and debark in a Canadian port along the way.

At the time the cruise ended in Vancouver & Celebrity was adamant that it violated the 100yr old Jones Act.  We dealt directly with Celebrity & it was useless. 

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50 minutes ago, varoo said:

 

This matter has needlessly been dragging on for 6 days now and it keeps becoming more and more complicated and absurd.

 

You should contact Celebrity Cruises to have them take your reservation away from the incompetent travel agent so that you can deal directly with Celebrity yourself. 

Then their Resolutions Department can correct the error and you will be able to enjoy a wonderful cruise without any of this needless extraneous nonsense or expense.

 

Also contact your credit card company to have that unnecessary charge removed. 

 

A competent travel agent would have contacted Celebrity immediately upon receiving the email cited in your first post and would have had the entire matter resolved correctly without even needing to involve you in it at all.

 

We are all rooting for you and hoping this ridiculous and unnecessary ordeal will soon be over so you can put it behind you and enjoy a wonderful cruise without any further complications.

               

Agree....guess it's moving along for back up plan...with hopes it gets resolved in a better way.  

 

Hope TA is covering ALL the extras.... there's  a bit of commission for a B2B2B to work with...&  is still working on Plan A..starting with a 3 way call to Reso. Dept.

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Just a heads up to the OP, several years ago 2015+- we discussed starting in Alaska southbound to Vancouver and then B2B Vancouver north into Alaska returning south to Seattle. We knew it would violate PSVA so called Celebrity to discuss...they recommended the same workaround as in this case, only it was to disembark in Victoria, travel to Vancouver for the second trip.  Almost did it, until they advised we had to remove all our belongings in Victoria and take them with us.  OP indicateces he wants to just take a knapsack and leave everything behind in the cabin. Recommend he obtains approval from Celebrity before he commits.

 

Like everyone else, from what i know about PSVA, the three segments look fine.

 

Good luck.

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2 hours ago, gerelmx said:

Update

I receive a email from my TA, X approved the late embarkation in Victoria, Also CELEBRITY CRUISES INC MIR  charge to my CC $66.32 MXN aprox $3.50 USCy

 

I don't receive any additional document and/or instructions  for the late boarding.

 

I'm still waiting for the answer to my One Touch email send on August 1

 

Everybody knows that As I booked with a TA Celebrity doesn't talk with me, I escalate the problem by email to One Touch.

 

"I'm still waiting for the answer to my  email "

 

I  already receive the document with the authorization for boarding at Vancouver

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Posted (edited)

LOL, I just realized we will be on your Oct 3 cruise. 

Edited by bigbenboys
removed words

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17 minutes ago, bigbenboys said:

LOL, I just realized we will be on your Oct 3 cruise. 

 

See you onboard

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4 hours ago, gerelmx said:

 

Everybody knows that As I booked with a TA Celebrity doesn't talk with me, I escalate the problem by email to One Touch.

 

"I'm still waiting for the answer to my  email "

 

I  already receive the document with the authorization for boarding at Vancouver

 

Sorry Boarding in Victoria

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