Exaggerated or Not?

[babs135]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9704286/royal-caribbean-staff-watched-gang-rapists-plying-booze-girl/

[K32682]

While the Sun is known for sensationalism the story itself is published by more credible journals and the basic facts remain the same.  

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2019/07/25/royal-caribbean-negligence-lawsuit-over-2015-teen-rape-can-proceed/1824834001/

 

https://www.ibtimes.com/cruise-ship-passenger-gets-gang-raped-royal-caribbean-aware-sexual-assault-epidemic-2808984

 

https://miami.cbslocal.com/2019/07/24/royal-caribbean-lawsuit-gang-rape/

[Cruiser_1977]

I've read and seen several pieces on this. Not once do they mention her parents/guardians. I will probably get flamed for this but here goes: Why was a 15 year old girl allowed unaccompanied long enough to drink "multiple rounds of alcoholic drinks" then be "steered" toward a cabin and "gang raped"? I don't foresee this happening in under an hour. WTH is wrong with parents? I was a 15 year old girl (a long time ago) and I'll be darned if my parents would have let me out of their sight for more than 20 minutes on a cruise ship. As has been mentioned in other threads, it's like a mini city and people need to stop feeling some weird "sense of safety" while on board. You do not know the person in the next cabin, seat or lounger.

 

I have no idea if the bartenders/staff realized she was underage. Since she wasn't "buying" her card wasn't swiped. They probably assumed one of the men was a guardian. I am NOT saying they bear no responsibility. Similar to a land-based bar being responsible for the amount of alcohol they serve.

 

I hate that we seem to only ever hear one side of facts by the media. I want all of them, a timeline, video, statements from other guests and staff. I hope the scum that perpetrated this crime, if found guilty in a court of law (not an online forum or in the media) get the harshest sentence possible. Nothing makes the behavior OKAY.

 

I guess my point is simply, if she had been supervised, this wouldn't have happened.

[Bloodgem]

I'm not defending anyone but I do wonder how old this girl actually looked. These days some 15 -16 year old can look 17-18 

[Cruiser_1977]

13 minutes ago, fyree39 said:

Do you have kids?  More importantly, do you have teens? People without kids usually have these unrealistic expectations.  Having a 15 year old remain supervised constantly on any vacation is a pretty ridiculous expectation.

What's ridiculous is that you think because I don't have children I don't understand. I'm an aunt, an auntie (to my friend's kids), and a Godmother. I started baby sitting at 12 and have coached children from 5-17. I have been entrusted with children of all ages throughout my life. Oh, I was a teenage girl. 10 -15 minutes to go to the room to grab a sweater or head to the bathroom. Would you let your kid run around NYC or Washington, DC or another city unfamiliar to them unsupervised? Kid's make dumb choices (so do A LOT of adults). That is why they have parents and guardians to protect them. Not just from others, but also from themselves.

Edited August 12, 2019 by JennyB1977

[Toofarfromthesea]

2 hours ago, fyree39 said:

I once sat as a juror on a civil case involving a sexual assault of a minor. I read the above USA Today story (an easier read, imo) and I agree that the cruise line should bear most of the responsibility.  Parents let their older kids explore the ship by themselves on every cruise. If the cruise line isn't willing to keep an eye out for nefarious behavior between teens and adults, which was certainly going on in this case, then they need to pay the price for this neglect.

 

So, the consequences of parental irresponsibility should be borne by the cruiselines?  Interesting take.

[calliopecruiser]

2 hours ago, JennyB1977 said:

Why was a 15 year old girl allowed unaccompanied long enough to drink "multiple rounds of alcoholic drinks" then be "steered" toward a cabin and "gang raped"? 

Why shouldn't she have been?

 

Are you so naive to think that teenagers - at least those that are over 15 or 16 -- are never left alone for several hours at a time?  That they don't go out to the movies, or go hang out at the coffee shop or baseball field?  That they don't go out on dates?  That they don't go shopping with friends at the mall, or play basketball at the park?

 

Or is it that you think 15 and 16 year olds shouldn't do any of those things?

 

Or maybe you think that their parents have no other children, and so can spend all their time with their teenager (which would stunt her mental and emotional development, by the way, and keep her an immature child far longer than she should be). 

 

This is a tragedy, but the response is not to over-react by becoming overprotective and hyper-vigilant.

[Toofarfromthesea]

20 minutes ago, fyree39 said:

Do you have kids?  More importantly, do you have teens? People without kids usually have these unrealistic expectations.  Having a 15 year old remain supervised constantly on any vacation is a pretty ridiculous expectation.

 

Raised 2 terrific daughters.  Neither needed constant supervision, at age 15, because they were raised in a way that something like this could not possibly have happened. 

The parental irresponsibility started long before this cruise for this to happen.

[calliopecruiser]

Just now, Toofarfromthesea said:

because they were raised in a way that something like this could not possibly have happened. 

 

Something like this could always possibly happen.  What you mean is something like this is highly unlikely to have happened.  There are no sure things, and we don't know that this did involve any parental responsibility -- it may be that her parents would have also said 3 months ago that she was "raised in a way that something like this could not possibly have happened".   There are a lot of rape victims, violence victims, homeless, and addicted young women who had parents would would have said the same thing - until something unexpected happened.

 

Never say never.  There but for the Grace of God, etc. 

[Cruiser_1977]

26 minutes ago, calliopecruiser said:

Why shouldn't she have been?

 

Are you so naive to think that teenagers - at least those that are over 15 or 16 -- are never left alone for several hours at a time?  That they don't go out to the movies, or go hang out at the coffee shop or baseball field?  That they don't go out on dates?  That they don't go shopping with friends at the mall, or play basketball at the park?

 

Or is it that you think 15 and 16 year olds shouldn't do any of those things?

 

Or maybe you think that their parents have no other children, and so can spend all their time with their teenager (which would stunt her mental and emotional development, by the way, and keep her an immature child far longer than she should be). 

 

This is a tragedy, but the response is not to over-react by becoming overprotective and hyper-vigilant.

Those situations are not a cruise ship with access to cabins and alcohol. We are talking about a 15 year old. Possibly a freshman, maybe a sophomore in High School. They can't even drive a car and legally are not supposed to be taking ride shares.

 

1) Left ALONE. Sure at home and not in a position to be under the influence of strange people. My mom would tell me not to even open the door to strangers. If it's important...they'll come back.

2) Movies with a group of friends or even just one friend = Yes. ALONE, depends on the kid but probably not.

3) Coffee shop or baseball field, again with friends = Yes. ALONE depends on the kid. To a National League baseball park = NOPE. To the local park down the street...again a maybe.

4) Dates, yes. This is how it worked when I was a teen. Mom and dad dropped us off and picked us up at set times after speaking to date's parents. OR He picked me up, spoke to my parents (DAD), was given the "her curfew is 9pm" (at 15), "where are you going", "if she is not in this house at 9:01 pm there will be an issue" speeches....

 

I didn't always make the best decisions with my friends. We drank. We partied, grew up in a college town. However, WE as a group kept each other from being in a situation drunk, lost and alone....I was also lucky that even then one of us was ALWAYS the DD and ALWAYS sober. I'm not sure if WE owe that to our parents, our small town life, or the Grace of God. 

 

I never went ALONE to those places only with my girl friends or groups. Even when I got my car I had to be with people. When I had to open the pool (where I worked 15-19) I had to call my mom when I arrived because I was often the first person there (it was out in the country and surrounded by woods/farmland). I also called (good old landline) when my boss or other guards arrived. I was given freedom but with limitations. I learned responsibility and safe decision making.

Edited August 12, 2019 by JennyB1977

[Toofarfromthesea]

2 minutes ago, calliopecruiser said:

 

Something like this could always possibly happen.  What you mean is something like this is highly unlikely to have happened.  There are no sure things, and we don't know that this did involve any parental responsibility -- it may be that her parents would have also said 3 months ago that she was "raised in a way that something like this could not possibly have happened".   There are a lot of rape victims, violence victims, homeless, and addicted young women who had parents would would have said the same thing - until something unexpected happened.

 

Never say never.  There but for the Grace of God, etc. 

 

Yes, of course they could have been forcibly raped.  But they never would have allowed themselves to be plied by alcohol.  Or even been anywhere near a bar.  Or gotten into an extended discussion with grown up men in a situation like that.  Because they were raised better than that.

[mjkacmom]

37 minutes ago, JennyB1977 said:

What's ridiculous is that you think because I don't have children I don't understand. I'm an aunt, an auntie (to my friend's kids), and a Godmother. I started baby sitting at 12 and have coached children from 5-17. I have been entrusted with children of all ages throughout my life. Oh, I was a teenage girl. 10 -15 minutes to go to the room to grab a sweater or head to the bathroom. Would you let your kid run around NYC or Washington, DC or another city unfamiliar to them unsupervised? Kid's make dumb choices (so do A LOT of adults). That is why they have parents and guardians to protect them. Not just from others, but also from themselves.

At 14 my daughters’ took the train to NYC and the train down the shore (dd16 is heading down tomorrow with friends). I’ve raised 5 teens, so know a tremendous amount of them, and their parents, and no one I know would bat an eye at 15 year old being unsupervised on a ship. Heck, the teen club is 12+, and they are free to come and go. At 18, they are legal adults in the eye of the law, you don’t keep them bubbled wrapped until then. 15 year olds hold jobs, go riding around with other teens in cars, go to the mall, heck half apps every Saturday night after 10 pm at Applebee’s. In a couple of years they head off to college. We are talking high school sophomores. 

[mjkacmom]

22 minutes ago, JennyB1977 said:

Those situations are not a cruise ship with access to cabins and alcohol. We are talking about a 15 year old. Possibly a freshman, maybe a sophomore in High School. They can't even drive a car and legally are not supposed to be taking ride shares.

 

1) Left ALONE. Sure at home and not in a position to be under the influence of strange people. My mom would tell me not to even open the door to strangers. If it's important...they'll come back.

2) Movies with a group of friends or even just one friend = Yes. ALONE, depends on the kid but probably not.

3) Coffee shop or baseball field, again with friends = Yes. ALONE depends on the kid. To a National League baseball park = NOPE. To the local park down the street...again a maybe.

4) Dates, yes. This is how it worked when I was a teen. Mom and dad dropped us off and picked us up at set times after speaking to date's parents. OR He picked me up, spoke to my parents (DAD), was given the "her curfew is 9pm" (At 15), "where are you going", "if she is not in this house at 9:01 pm there will be an issue" speeches....

 

I never went ALONE to those places only with my girl friends or groups.

9 pm curfew for a 15 year old?!😂

[CPT Trips]

OldFart dad of a 30 something daughter who had a fairly long leash. A number of folks are kidding themselves about how capable young teens are.

[Cruiser_1977]

1 minute ago, mjkacmom said:

9 pm curfew for a 15 year old?!😂

You laugh but I am alive, healthy, relatively sane ;), productive member of society and I thank my parents. What the hell is a 15 year old doing past 9pm. I am 41 and still live by the adage "Nothing good happens in a bar after midnight"

 

15 = 9pm - 1993

16 = 10pm - 1994

17 = 11pm - 1995

18 = 12pm - 1996 the year I graduated.

[Cruiser_1977]

@CPT Trips Not questioning the capability of a teen. Teens are capable of wonderful things.Teens also have been known (as have people of all ages) to make unfortunate, even bad, decisions. It's the sinister thoughts/actions of those other beings that can take advantage of a young girl ALONE. I'm sure as a parent you all hope you've given your kids the tools to make the right choice(s). In the case of the Original Post this 15 year old didn't. She, it appears, allowed herself to be served alcohol by strangers.

 

I sincerely hope that we never hear of something like this again. My point stands, IF she had been with someone this wouldn't have happened.

Edited August 12, 2019 by JennyB1977

[mjkacmom]

13 minutes ago, JennyB1977 said:

You laugh but I am alive, healthy, relatively sane ;), productive member of society and I thank my parents. What the hell is a 15 year old doing past 9pm. I am 41 and still live by the adage "Nothing good happens in a bar after midnight"

 

15 = 9pm - 1993

16 = 10pm - 1994

17 = 11pm - 1995

18 = 12pm - 1996 the year I graduated.

My 15 year olds weren’t even home from dance class at 9. But after 9? At the movies, out to eat, at a party, at friends’ houses, at a concert, babysitting, at a game or practice. My 16 year olds have to be home by 11 unless they ask for an extension, once my kids turned 18 there was no curfew. One has her masters and almost CPA, one graduates from college next year, and another is headed off to college with large scholarships. All have a lot of common sense, good situational awareness, and confidence. And yes, starting around the age of 12, they were not attached at the hip to the parents on cruise ships, they were hanging out with all of their new found friends.

[Cruiser_1977]

7 minutes ago, mjkacmom said:

But after 9? At the movies, out to eat, at a party, at friends’ houses, at a concert, babysitting, at a game or practice.....hanging out with all of their new found friends.

not alone....

Edited August 12, 2019 by JennyB1977

[ed01106]

15 yo isn’t old enough to be left unsupervised for more than 20 minutes??????

 

Are you kidding me????? I was babysitting toddlers at that age.  As in I was not only unsupervised for hours at a time, I was someone else’s supervision.

[Cruiser_1977]

Just now, ed01106 said:

15 yo isn’t old enough to be left unsupervised for more than 20 minutes??????

 

Are you kidding me????? I was babysitting toddlers at that age.  As in I was not only unsupervised for hours at a time, I was someone else’s supervision.

You were not alone on a cruise ship. My point is IN THIS CASE. The young girl was left ALONE (according to the facts we have at this time) where she was able to be plied by others. I doubt a toddler you were babysitting was going to get you drunk and rape you! They are not the same thing.

[mjkacmom]

1 minute ago, JennyB1977 said:

You were not alone on a cruise ship. My point is IN THIS CASE. The young girl was left ALONE (according to the facts we have at this time) where she was able to be plied by others. I doubt a toddler you were babysitting was going to get you drunk and rape you! They are not the same thing.

How do you know she was left alone? For all we know, she said bye to her parents and said she was going to meet up with other teens. Or she was with other teens, and left them. I’m sure she didn’t tell her parents she was going to a bar and try to get free drinks. As parents, we do the best we can to teach our children right from wrong, but you can’t keep them tethered to you so that they are prevented from making bad decisions (most that don’t end in gang rape, but are learning experiences).

[ed01106]

9 minutes ago, JennyB1977 said:

You were not alone on a cruise ship. My point is IN THIS CASE. The young girl was left ALONE (according to the facts we have at this time) where she was able to be plied by others. I doubt a toddler you were babysitting was going to get you drunk and rape you! They are not the same thing.

 

At 15 I would be gone from after breakfast until dinner with no supervision.   I never went cruising at that age but I am sure it would have been a check in every few hours deal.  

[ed01106]

If RCL’s policy is that they take zero responsibility for the insuring minors don’t drink and that it is parents responsibility to monitor their 15 yo every minute of the day then they should make that clear on their website, from reading their FAQs I get the distinct impression teen can freely roam the ship and check in and out of the teen center on their own but they would be barred entry into the bars.  If that is not the case they should correct the webpage 

[Cruiser_1977]

From the RCCL cruise contract sent to me last week:

Section 8 referred to in "d." above is "8. PASSENGER’S OBLIGATION TO COMPLY WITH AGREEMENT, APPLICABLE LAWS, AND RULES OF CARRIER; QUARANTINE; INDEMNIFICATION:" This includes the alcohol policy. Alcohol policy that is covered under Section 8 as a "rules of the carrier": 

The minimum age to consume alcohol on Royal Caribbean International ships on sailings originating in North America is twenty-one (21). The minimum age to consume alcohol on Royal Caribbean International ships on sailings from South America, Europe, Asia, Australia and New Zealand is eighteen (18). The minimum age to consume alcohol at all private destinations remains twenty-one (21) without regard to where the sailing originated. The Company retains the right, on rare occasions, to raise the minimum age of alcohol consumption on any sailing when local laws require or permit such a modification.Guests who violate any alcohol policies (over consuming, providing alcohol to people under the age of 21, demonstrating irresponsible behavior, or attempting to conceal alcoholic items at security and or luggage checkpoints or any other time), may be disembarked or not allowed to board, at their own expense, in accordance with the Guest Conduct Policy."

 

Other than while a kid is physically in kid's club (teen's club), I doubt any cruise line is going to accept responsibility for monitoring a minor. I doubt their insurance companies would insure that level of responsibility.

Edited August 12, 2019 by JennyB1977

[calliopecruiser]

3 hours ago, JennyB1977 said:

I was given freedom but with limitations.

 

No, you were given the illusion of freedom and a leash you didn't recognize.    Freedom with limitations doesn't mean you get to go somewhere but have to call your parents to check in with them.  Limitations on freedom are things like limited time (curfews), distance, or activity, not someone waiting for you to check in and tell them you're OK.

 

And all those times teens are "with their friends"........they're often not with their friends.  You know that, right?