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Exaggerated or Not?

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1 hour ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

And there are ways to minimize risk and ways to maximize risk.  Which would you say happened in this case?

And, frankly, I put most of the blame for the risk being maximized on the 'responsible' adults who allowed her to roam free.

Aye, magic. And what of those parents who did everything they could, but find their daughter got raped anyway?

 

Maybe they should have got her not to wear a skirt, maybe they should have their daughter change sex at birth, you know, just to mitigate any risk.

 

But then, boys have been abused too.

 

I wonder what you will blame THEIR parents for?

 

 

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i find it ridiculous that sides have to be taken at all in this situation.

 

imo, all parties bear responsibility including RCI, the criminals, the parents and the girl.  there is no way in heck a RCI staff member didn't see this girl getting plastered.

 

i don't understand the girl even being in a position to get wasted.  and i also don't understand how the assailants were able to get this girl alone.  why was a 15 year old allowed to roam the ship by herself?  as some other people have mentioned i am sure that no one would allow their 15 year old daughter to roam a major city by herself.  kids around here are not even allowed to walk to school or the bus stop or home from school by themselves.  

 

even when i was in high school or younger and we had pool activities we had a buddy system.  you were to keep tabs on your buddy at all times and every 15 minutes we had a "buddy check."

 

keeping it real where the heck were the parents?  where were her friends or siblings?

 

this entire situation reeks of irresponsibility and predators taking advantage of said irresponsibility. 

 

some people scoffed at a woman that said that they had a 9pm curfew at 15.   i am a dude and i had to be in my room at 9pm until i was a high school sophomore.  up until the 8th grade it was 8pm.  once i became a junior i had no curfew but my parents whom, raised me responsibly, knew that i could handle myself at that point. 

 

too many parents get on "vacation" and think that their responsibility as parents are "on vacation" too.  they allow their kids to run wild and free and mess up everyone else's vacation.  i have seen it too many times and that is one of the abundance of reasons i choose to cruise while school is in session.

 

that girl should never have been alone.  the assailants need to be dealt with as harshly as the law allows.  but let's not pretend there were not other issues here as well.

 

i hope that RCI learns from this unfortunate incident and makes some policy changes.

Edited by gammite

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But the point most of us are making is that no matter how silly, risky, or whatever, the girls behaviour was, it should not have resulted in a sexual assault. There is no excuse no matter how much some try to make one.

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4 minutes ago, DarrenM said:

But the point most of us are making is that no matter how silly, risky, or whatever, the girls behaviour was, it should not have resulted in a sexual assault. There is no excuse no matter how much some try to make one.

 

and i am sure no one is actually saying that the girl deserved to be sexually assaulted.

 

i haven't seen anyone convey that message. 

 

the message that I see conveyed is that the girl's parents and RCI failed in their responsibility to protect a girl that clearly was beyond her depth.  and due to her being beyond her depth she was taken advantage of by criminal predators.  this entire situation is absolutely ridiculous along with many of the comments in this thread.

Edited by gammite

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14 minutes ago, gammite said:

why was a 15 year old allowed to roam the ship by herself?  as some other people have mentioned i am sure that no one would allow their 15 year old daughter to roam a major city by herself.  kids around here are not even allowed to walk to school or the bus stop or home from school by themselves.  

 

 

Really? Keep in mind that a 15-year-old is going to be heading off to college on his/her own in three years or less. Perhaps they need to start getting some practical experience before that happens.... A person doesn't automatically become a mature responsible adult at age 18 with no prior experience.

 

In the city I live in, students are encouraged to walk to school and to bus stops by themselves and anywhere else they can get to on foot. Many kids of my son's age in high school didn't even bother getting driver's licenses until they needed them for college. 

 

Regardless, we have no idea of the actual circumstances and it's a bit silly to pretend we do. For all we know her parents may have been frantically trying to locate her while these events took place.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Really? Keep in mind that a 15-year-old is going to be heading off to college on his/her own in three years or less. Perhaps they need to start getting some practical experience before that happens.... A person doesn't automatically become a mature responsible adult at age 18 with no prior experience.

 

In the city I live in, students are encouraged to walk to school and to bus stops by themselves and anywhere else they can get to on foot. Many kids of my son's age in high school didn't even bother getting driver's licenses until they needed them for college. 

 

Regardless, we have no idea of the actual circumstances and it's a bit silly to pretend we do. For all we know her parents may have been frantically trying to locate her while these events took place.

 

 

 

your point is that is still 3 years off and if we just adjust her age by one year or two this thread would have a different flavor.  if she was 13 or even 14 the comments would be different.

 

and 15 is still not 16, 17 or 18.  she was too young to be roaming by herself.  

 

as you alluded to there are a number of unanswered questions.

 

how did she meet the predators?  why was she socializing with the predators?  how did it get a point them buying her drinks?  did they carry her off or did she go the room willingly?

 

where were the parents?  if they were hypothetically searching frantically for her did they contact ship security or staff?

 

and again, what were RCI crew (of all levels) doing while this was happening?  they watch everything.  and there are cameras everywhere.  something is not adding up here.

 

too many hypothetical questions.  what we do know is that she should not have been by herself and socializing/entertaining with grown men.  and i fault her parents for that.  no child, boy or girl should be socializing with strangers on vacation in any capacity.  and all children should have a buddy system when they are out without supervision.

Edited by gammite

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33 minutes ago, gammite said:

 

imo, all parties bear responsibility including RCI, the criminals, the parents and the girl. 

 

18 minutes ago, gammite said:

 

and i am sure no one is actually saying that the girl deserved to be sexually assaulted.

 

i haven't seen anyone convey that message.  

 

So....in your mind, what exactly is the difference between saying that the girl "bears responsibility" and that she "deserved to be .... assaulted"?

 

Both of these are examples of victim-blaming. A couple of germane paragraphs from an article in The Atlantic on this topic:

 

"While victim-blaming often brings to mind crimes like sexual assault and domestic violence, it occurs across the board, explains Barbara Gilin, a professor of social work at Widener University. Murders, burglaries, abductions—whatever the crime, many people tend to default to victim-blaming thoughts and behaviors as a defense mechanism in the face of bad news. Gilin notes that, while people tend to be able to accept natural disasters as unavoidable, many feel that they have a little more control over whether they become victims of crimes, that they can take precautions that will protect them. Therefore, some people have a harder time accepting that the victims of these crimes didn’t contribute to (and bear some responsibility for) their own victimization.

 

“In my experience, having worked with a lot of victims and people around them, people blame victims so that they can continue to feel safe themselves,” Gilin explains. “I think it helps them feel like bad things will never happen to them. They can continue to feel safe. Surely, there was some reason that the neighbor’s child was assaulted, and that will never happen to their child because that other parent must have been doing something wrong.”

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24 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

 

So....in your mind, what exactly is the difference between saying that the girl "bears responsibility" and that she "deserved to be .... assaulted"?

 

Both of these are examples of victim-blaming. A couple of germane paragraphs from an article in The Atlantic on this topic:

 

"While victim-blaming often brings to mind crimes like sexual assault and domestic violence, it occurs across the board, explains Barbara Gilin, a professor of social work at Widener University. Murders, burglaries, abductions—whatever the crime, many people tend to default to victim-blaming thoughts and behaviors as a defense mechanism in the face of bad news. Gilin notes that, while people tend to be able to accept natural disasters as unavoidable, many feel that they have a little more control over whether they become victims of crimes, that they can take precautions that will protect them. Therefore, some people have a harder time accepting that the victims of these crimes didn’t contribute to (and bear some responsibility for) their own victimization.

 

“In my experience, having worked with a lot of victims and people around them, people blame victims so that they can continue to feel safe themselves,” Gilin explains. “I think it helps them feel like bad things will never happen to them. They can continue to feel safe. Surely, there was some reason that the neighbor’s child was assaulted, and that will never happen to their child because that other parent must have been doing something wrong.”

 

i live in the real world.

 

you can call something victim blaming if you like.  we all have to protect ourselves.  we do not live in a utopian society or pleasantville.

 

this board is rife with disgusting comments about how people feel unsafe around certain people/ethnic groups and how they had to protect themselves or looked like they belong so that they would not get robbed, assaulted, etc.  i don't comment on them because it is what it is and people have their prejudices.  that is the real world.

 

don't attempt to say i am blaming this girl for her situation.  she should not have been assaulted.   period. full stop.

 

however that does not absolve anyone of the basic tenets of being street smart.  you stated that in a couple of years she is going off to school.  the first thing we tell our children when they first start leaving the house is don't talk to strangers.

 

what happened is not her fault.  at all.  

 

you can post all of the ivory tower article explanations of victim blaming that you like but one important question remains...

 

why was she there by herself socializing with the predators?

 

and again where were her parents and RCI?

Edited by gammite

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4 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Because heaven forbid some other 15 year old girl reads about it and figures out that she DOESN'T want her life to be changed in a horrible way and adjusts her behavior accordingly.

 

Thank goodness for the internet so the weak can spew their senseless drivel.   

 

It takes a truly heartless horse’s behind to victim shame in these cases. 

Edited by Cruzaholic41

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2 minutes ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

 

Thank goodness for the internet so the weak can spew their senseless drivel.   

 

It takes a truly heartless horse’s behind to victim shame in these cases. 

 

i understand you sentiment completely.

 

however, aren't the fairy tales we learned as children exactly the same thing as what the poster you quoted said.  these fairy tales are the foundation of many of our childhoods.  grimm's fairy tales, stories of mt olympus and aesop's fables while cleaned up for the consumption of children are exactly what the person you quoted was alluding to.

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11 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Because heaven forbid some other 15 year old girl reads about it and figures out that she DOESN'T want her life to be changed in a horrible way and adjusts her behavior accordingly.

 

I'm more worried about the message young men will get from this thread. That how a girl behaves dictates how she should be treated. That unless she was dragged kicking and screaming (thank you Hollywood stereotypes) the crime against her wasn't that serious because she basically aided and abetted the crime. That if their friends did something like this they're actions weren't bad because the victim was responsible by being drunk.

If you think these are not the messages young men are picking up you are just as much not living in the real world. I have volunteered with a high school program that tries to encourage respect for women and because they spend time online reading Facebook and Reddit comments insisting a woman gives up her right to safety if she is drunk I have to be the one to explain why drunkenness is no excuse for rape and that consent can only be achieved if a woman has clearly articulated with a sound mind what she wants.

Insisting that girls have to modify their behaviour only reinforces for boys the things they read online and gives them warped views about culpability in rape. Putting the onus on people to not become victims isn't going to disincentivize someone who wants to commit a criminal act if anything it probably makes it more attractive knowing that society will care more about the actions of the victim than their own.

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18 hours ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Because heaven forbid some other 15 year old girl reads about it and figures out that she DOESN'T want her life to be changed in a horrible way and adjusts her behavior accordingly.

Heaven forbid some 15 yr old girl reads this and doesn't report a rape for fear of victim blaming.

Edited by electro
typo

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13 hours ago, gammite said:

 

why was she there by herself socializing with the predators?

 

 

I'm sure they weren't wearing signs that said "I'm a Predator"

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1 hour ago, electro said:

Heaven forbid some 15 yr old girl reads this and doesn't report a rape for fear of victim blaming.

The predators should be punished  —  period. 

 

Unfortunately the opposition to victim shaming has become so overwhelming that an important aspect of the situation is ignored.  The girl had put herself in harm’s way by her conduct.  Acknowledging this undeniable fact is not victim shaming, it is simply understanding that people need to be aware of dangers which exist.

 

Refusing to accept that, while the attack was not her fault, her being in a place she should not have been, doing things she should not have been doing, with people she should not have been with — played a significant part in what happened  — is simply political correctness run amok.

 

 

 

 

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When you cant think of anything else to use blame political  correctness.

 

 

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And what about those attacked that werent in the wrong place doing the wrong things?

 

Who you blaming in those circumstances?

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8 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

I'm more worried about the message young men will get from this thread. That how a girl behaves dictates how she should be treated. That unless she was dragged kicking and screaming (thank you Hollywood stereotypes) the crime against her wasn't that serious because she basically aided and abetted the crime. That if their friends did something like this they're actions weren't bad because the victim was responsible by being drunk.

If you think these are not the messages young men are picking up you are just as much not living in the real world. I have volunteered with a high school program that tries to encourage respect for women and because they spend time online reading Facebook and Reddit comments insisting a woman gives up her right to safety if she is drunk I have to be the one to explain why drunkenness is no excuse for rape and that consent can only be achieved if a woman has clearly articulated with a sound mind what she wants.

Insisting that girls have to modify their behaviour only reinforces for boys the things they read online and gives them warped views about culpability in rape. Putting the onus on people to not become victims isn't going to disincentivize someone who wants to commit a criminal act if anything it probably makes it more attractive knowing that society will care more about the actions of the victim than their own.

 

men and boys also must modify their behavior.  they must act as gentlemen.  the boys in my world are being groomed to be gentlemen, to respect themselves and to respect others.  i can't imagine then men and boys i know attacking a woman under any circumstances because that is not how they are raised or socialized.

 

it blows my mind to see some men and boys act the way that they do.  it goes back to the parents and the family structure.  the were clearly raised by wolves.

 

and again we do not live in a safe world.  it is on the individual to not put themselves in harms way.  i can go find countless posts on this forum alone discussing the need to be vigilant and safe.

 

stop with the strawmen arguments.

Edited by gammite

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1 hour ago, electro said:

I'm sure they weren't wearing signs that said "I'm a Predator"

 

and again, we were all taught at a young age to not talk to strangers.

 

the lack of common sense in this thread blows my mind.

 

as a grown man i wouldn't have even been talking to her unless she was in need of some type of help or in despair.  and even then i would have enlisted people around me to help.  what do i look like socializing with a 15 year old girl with which i have no relation of any kind?

 

there are too many unanswered questions here.  we will never know the outcome because what happens at sea stays at sea.

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this is a very complex issue and it would be interesting to see how some of the reactions in this thread would change if just a few variables of the incident were different.

 

this thread alone is an excellent case study on human reaction.

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1 hour ago, DarrenM said:

And what about those attacked that werent in the wrong place doing the wrong things?

 

Who you blaming in those circumstances?

The attackers are ALWAYS to blame for the wrong they do.  

 

But  things rarely happen in a vacuum:  pretending that there must be no awareness of the risks involved in irresponsible behavior is essentially  endorsing irresponsible behavior.

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2 hours ago, DarrenM said:

And what about those attacked that werent in the wrong place doing the wrong things?

 

Who you blaming in those circumstances?

 

Every single person in this thread has said that nothing the girl did should in any way detract or reduce the culpability of the criminals or their consequences, yet you keep dishonestly portraying it as otherwise.

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I wonder how this thread would have evolved if the female involved had been 25, or even 35?  As someone we would expect to be 'older and wiser' would the comments be the same?  And what if she was travelling with her parents - would we be asking where were they?

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2 hours ago, babs135 said:

I wonder how this thread would have evolved if the female involved had been 25, or even 35?  As someone we would expect to be 'older and wiser' would the comments be the same?  And what if she was travelling with her parents - would we be asking where were they?

 

i would hope that a responsible ADULT woman would know better than to be sitting with a dozen strange men getting hammered into a drunken coma.  i am a grown man and i wouldn't be around that situation.

 

why do people keep bringing up straw man arguments???

 

do you leave your doors unlocked at night?  do you go to the mall and leave your vehicle doors unlocked?  do you leave your children in the care of any facility just because it says day care or school?  do you leave your purse sitting on a table at a restaurant unattended while you go to the restroom?  do you leave your cellphone unattended on a park bench while you pick up after the dog?

 

i highly doubt it.

 

at an early age (before tweens) i was made responsible for my brother.  we are 18 months apart and to make a long story short if anything happened in any capacity i was held responsible.  my excuses didn't matter.  if he got in trouble i got in trouble.  period.  point blank.   if he was unaccounted for i had better find him asap. (and this was decades before popular usage of cellphones.)  my parents didn't play any games.  had something happened to my brother on a cruise ship my parents would definitely be asking where the heck i was at if he was not with them.

 

this girl was traveling with at least her grandparents and her two sisters.   no one knew where she was at during this entire incident?  no one thought to go find her?  this situation has massive fails at a number of levels.

Edited by gammite

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23 minutes ago, mjkacmom said:

 On a cruise ship with no mean of contacting each other, you just have to trust. 

 

lol. never.

 

and i don't know too many parents that allow their teen children just to wander with no way of keeping in contact.  i live in a  major metropolitan area as well and it is always stated that kids SHOULD NOT be traveling alone to and from school.

 

i went to school decades ago and things were different.  and i was also a very mature teenager.  my parents knew i was going to do the right thing and i was not going to put myself if precarious situations.   

 

i would never let my 15 year old daughter (or son for that matter) roam a cruise ship by herself with no way of contacting her under any circumstances.  not. going. to. happen.

 

my partner and i had a conversation just last night pier runners and i told her under no circumstances is she to leave the ship if i am not aboard.  i will find a way to get back to her.  she almost in tears said, "i wouldn't want to be on the ship by myself.  something might happen to me.  i would need you to find me."

 

and i told her to stay her butt on the ship.  and if she was not on the ship i would stay in port until i found her.

 

i am not going to be without a way to contact my family.  there is no trust on a ship with 5000 px.  never.

Edited by gammite

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1 hour ago, gammite said:

 

lol. never.

 

and i don't know too many parents that allow their teen children just to wander with no way of keeping in contact.  i live in a  major metropolitan area as well and it is always stated that kids SHOULD NOT be traveling alone to and from school.

 

i went to school decades ago and things were different.  and i was also a very mature teenager.  my parents knew i was going to do the right thing and i was not going to put myself if precarious situations.   

 

i would never let my 15 year old daughter (or son for that matter) roam a cruise ship by herself with no way of contacting her under any circumstances.  not. going. to. happen.

 

my partner and i had a conversation just last night pier runners and i told her under no circumstances is she to leave the ship if i am not aboard.  i will find a way to get back to her.  she almost in tears said, "i wouldn't want to be on the ship by myself.  something might happen to me.  i would need you to find me."

 

and i told her to stay her butt on the ship.  and if she was not on the ship i would stay in port until i found her.

 

i am not going to be without a way to contact my family.  there is no trust on a ship with 5000 px.  never.

Your adult partner would be afraid to be on the ship herself?! Obviously she wasn’t taught the life skill necessary to be an independent adult. My five range in age from 16 - 23, and each one of them would be fine alone on a cruise ship. No way would m6 husband tell me I wasn’t allowed to get off of the ship without him, that’s nuts. I don’t know if you are a parent, but yes, teens are usually told to stay together, but they don’t always listen. My kids tend to find their own circle of friends when we cruise and not stay with each other, meeting new people is part of the fun. Do I think ant if my daughter’s would end up in this situation? Heck no, but I know 5be6 all get creeped out if older guys get too close (dd18 worked at a restaurant with a 36 year old guy who texted inappropriate things, so immediately told the manager).

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