Why do you hate HAL so much?

[AV8rix]

31 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

HAL has a poor IT system? Can you give an example?

 

Seriously???  It began to deteriorate most noticeably in 2017.  I'm not going to post a gazillion links here but suggest you google "Carnival IT outsourcing".

[HappyInVan]

43 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

The website is awkward to navigate. It was phenomenally buggy when they launched it and it took ages to get it to where you could actually make a booking without being stuck watching the spinning circle of doom. 

 

The system onboard does strange things. The system on the K identified my free grats as "explore 4" even thought I did not have explore 4. When I questioned this, the concierge's computer showed something different from what I could see on the neptune lounge guest computer or my own device. Yes, the total cost was correct, but the accounting was screwy. 

 

If they can't get the website or the onboard billing system to work smoothly, they probably can't figure out how to review and study their profits/expensitures.

 

 

He's talking about analytics. It's not done in real-time which is the problem you're concerned about.

 

Once a quarter, a company may batch analyze its customers for demographics. How much did the age/income groups spend? That information is distributed for the quarterly internal report. I'm sure that HAL management has this analysis,

 

BTW, on the Rotterdam, there was no digital entertainment system. On long distance flights, every passenger has a large digital library (including newish movies and TV shows) to chose from. 

 

Do the new ships have anything like this? HAL will need this if it is to be family-friendly. 

[Aquahound]

Give an example of poor IT on HAL??!!

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! 😂

 

Oh man, that was a good one. 🤣

[HappyInVan]

31 minutes ago, Av8rix said:

 

Seriously???  It began to deteriorate most noticeably in 2017.  I'm not going to post a gazillion links here but suggest you google "Carnival IT outsourcing".

 

 

I've also noticed that the front-end customer services is dysfunctional. Not surprised that they have outsourced (if you are correct) to a second tier service company. Which may explain the lag experienced by 3rdGenCunarder.

 

That is different from the corporate IT net, includes B2B (business to business) interfaces. I certainly hope that HAL has retained that function internally. 

Edited September 13, 2019 by HappyInVan

[3rdGenCunarder]

40 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

He's talking about analytics. It's not done in real-time which is the problem you're concerned about.

 

Once a quarter, a company may batch analyze its customers for demographics. How much did the age/income groups spend? That information is distributed for the quarterly internal report. I'm sure that HAL management has this analysis,

 

BTW, on the Rotterdam, there was no digital entertainment system. On long distance flights, every passenger has a large digital library (including newish movies and TV shows) to chose from. 

 

Do the new ships have anything like this? HAL will need this if it is to be family-friendly. 

 

What's the last time you were on a HAL ship? Or tried to book one? Or read anything but the hate/love threads here?

 

Yes, all but the R and S ships have (or will soon have) a digital entertainment system. It has come up in a lot of threads. It was recently reported on another thread that it's too complicated to rewire the older ships for that kind of system. But Vistas and larger/newer are good to go.

 

And I didn't have a "lag" in reporting expenses/charges. I experienced two different account reporting systems when I checked two devices simultaneously. That's just inviting errors!

 

[slidergirl]

I wonder how much actual onboard spending is done by those 4* and 5* Mariners.  They have found the magic formula to get the best price on a cabin through some TA which gives them lot of OBC.  They get free laundry,  50% or so discount on specialty dining.  Any thing they "spend" could be covered by the OBC.  Not a lot of ROI there.   From one of my Hospitality classes, I vaguely remember that the group with the most spend on a vacation is the gay community.  I don't know if cruise lines have any specific targeting to the gay community, but I know we do in the hotels I have worked.  I'm not talking about big parties, charters, but a vacation where a solo person or couple or families will feel welcome.  

I'm still in the camp of "HAL needs to find new revenue streams."  

[AmazedByCruising]

3 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Any thing they "spend" could be covered by the OBC.  Not a lot of ROI there

 

That OBC comes out of the pocket of the TA, doesn't it?

[slidergirl]

Just now, AmazedByCruising said:

 

That OBC comes out of the pocket of the TA, doesn't it?

Most likely.  But, that doesn't contribute to HAL's ROI.   There are also "specials" from time to time by HAL that give some OBC...

[3rdGenCunarder]

2 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

I wonder how much actual onboard spending is done by those 4* and 5* Mariners.  They have found the magic formula to get the best price on a cabin through some TA which gives them lot of OBC.  They get free laundry,  50% or so discount on specialty dining.  Any thing they "spend" could be covered by the OBC.  Not a lot of ROI there.   From one of my Hospitality classes, I vaguely remember that the group with the most spend on a vacation is the gay community.  I don't know if cruise lines have any specific targeting to the gay community, but I know we do in the hotels I have worked.  I'm not talking about big parties, charters, but a vacation where a solo person or couple or families will feel welcome.  

I'm still in the camp of "HAL needs to find new revenue streams."  

 

The problem is what kind of revenue stream will work. CO isn't exactly raking it in. They tried the extra entree charge and that got a lot of pushback. 

 

I expect that you're right about many 4* and 5* Mariners. By the time we get to that level, we already have enough souvenir "dam ship" mugs, plenty of "formal night" and port arrival photos, pashminas from the poolside sale, etc. We've figured out which ports we can see on your own and how to find good non-ship tours. As a 4* Mariner, I can't think of an "extra" that I would want that isn't already available. 

 

[AmazedByCruising]

Just now, slidergirl said:

Most likely.  But, that doesn't contribute to HAL's ROI.   There are also "specials" from time to time by HAL that give some OBC...

 

Except for those specials, it shouldn't matter to ROI if the guest paid for it or the TA did by giving up some of their commission.

 

OR, I still don't understand the theory behind commission, non-commissionable fares, refundable OBC and non refundable OBCs, you name it well enough. That's quite likely. 

 

[3rdGenCunarder]

6 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Most likely.  But, that doesn't contribute to HAL's ROI.   There are also "specials" from time to time by HAL that give some OBC...

 

I think some agency OBC comes from HAL in the form of "things you may give your customers."

[slidergirl]

12 minutes ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

 

I think some agency OBC comes from HAL in the form of "things you may give your customers."

That would make it kind of a zero sum for HAL - give it out and get it back...  

 

Based on what I read on the HAL site, most veterans (I'll say that instead of old folks), seem to be more likely to take their own private excursions than book the ones through HAL.  That is another revenue stream that is missed. 

[iancal]

It is basic data mining.  The can pull, cut, and relate customer data in many ways.

 

Many on this  forum seem to know what demographic spends what and how much they contribute to profit.

 

 In my experience across many businesses a guess is not good enough, nor is supposed intuition.  The numbers will tell the story.  They will help chart future direction.  Besides, their bankers will be doing the same independently and comparing them with Carnival subsidiary and consolidated actuals.  Hard numbers do not lie.  

 

I very much doubt whether any ‘experts’ on this forum know what the numbers are...before or after taxes, depreciation, etc.

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by iancal

[Hlitner]

17 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

That would make it kind of a zero sum for HAL - give it out and get it back...  

 

Based on what I read on the HAL site, most veterans (I'll say that instead of old folks), seem to be more likely to take their own private excursions than book the ones through HAL.  That is another revenue stream that is missed. 

It is a problem on all the mass market lines.  The company business plans count on maximizing onboard revenue to enhance the bottom line.   But the older more experienced cruisers spend less money (sometimes much less) per cruise day.  This creates a love-hate dilemma for management.   They love their loyal customers (its helps fill berths) but would prefer to substitute younger cruisers who spend more money.  But HAL seems to shooting itself in the head....when it comes to attracting younger cruisers.  On another thread somebody posted about the price difference of Celebrity (primarily the Edge) vs HAL in the Caribbean.  Celebrity was charging about double the price as HAL...and getting it!   Celebrity also has their problems (with too many cut-backs) but is still able to get more money per berth.   Meanwhile,  HAL is still stuck with some older vessels that lack the balconies and amenities demanded by younger cruisers.  Like many long-time HAL cruisers there are times when I will book an outside cabin on an older HAL vessel because I am not willing to shell out the much bigger bucks for a small suite (the only way to get a balcony on some ships).   But you are not going to convince most younger cruisers that they should give-up a balcony just to cruise on an older HAL ship where the A/C often malfunctions, toilets constantly break, etc.  And we will not even talk about the Lanai cabins which are actually favored by some HAL cruisers.  Try to sell that to a younger cruiser used to getting a private balcony on all their cruises....without paying much premium.

 

Hank

[iancal]

You are correct.  We are not interested in anything less than a balcony cabin.

 

I do not think that this is unusual.  Simply look at the percentage of cabins on new builds that are balcony or better.  Then compare that ratio, and associated pricing, with some of the older ships.  It tells the story in spades about how cruise lines are responding  to customer demands.  Balcony trumps small ships for us.

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, 3rdGenCunarder said:

Yes, all but the R and S ships have (or will soon have) a digital entertainment system. It has come up in a lot of threads. It was recently reported on another thread that it's too complicated to rewire the older ships for that kind of system. But Vistas and larger/newer are good to go.

 

And I didn't have a "lag" in reporting expenses/charges. I experienced two different account reporting systems when I checked two devices simultaneously. That's just inviting errors!

 

 

Yes, sounds like there are TWO databases with incompatible bits. No surprises here since we know that HAL needs to catch up with RCL on profitability, and we know how competent the new management is.

 

I'm still waiting for Ian to explain why he said that HAL (alone) doesn't analyze customer information.

 

Thanks for the info on the digital entertainment system. There will be no DES on the Rotterdam! I missed the news because I don't hang out in this forum. I have a life elsewhere.

 

At this time, I am interested in the forum because IMHO it is ready for a deeper understanding of HAL's problems. I contribute business and management insights. I look forward to hearing your insights. I am not just a complainer!

Edited September 13, 2019 by HappyInVan

[AmazedByCruising]

4 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

They love their loyal customers (its helps fill berths) but would prefer to substitute younger cruisers who spend more money. 

 

If HAL ships aren't actually sailing at a loss, why would you want to substitute? Why would CCL want to scare off profitable cruisers, albeit less profitable than average, to make room for new cruisers? Just order more ships geared to the younger cruisers. 

 

We have clients that don't spend much, but they are profitable (i.e. more than 6%). No way I'd be sending them to our competitors to earn money for them just because they are not profitable enough.

[Hlitner]

6 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

If HAL ships aren't actually sailing at a loss, why would you want to substitute? Why would CCL want to scare off profitable cruisers, albeit less profitable than average, to make room for new cruisers? Just order more ships geared to the younger cruisers. 

 

We have clients that don't spend much, but they are profitable (i.e. more than 6%). No way I'd be sending them to our competitors to earn money for them just because they are not profitable enough.

These are US Corporations where the current bottom line (profits) are given so much emphasis.  Longer range thinking like we see in some Asian cultures do not carry the same weight.   CEO's have a lot of pressure to perform and that performance is generally measured by profit, ROI, etc.  In some sense, if you were to send a low spending customer to a competitor it might be a good strategy in a competitive industry :).    Having folks who are "profitable enough" are fine as long as you have the excess capacity.  But as a CEO I would prefer to fill all my berths with bigger spenders.   or perhaps it was said best by Gordon Gekko when he claimed that "Greed is good."

 

Hank

[AmazedByCruising]

4 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

CEO's have a lot of pressure to perform and that performance is generally measured by profit, ROI, etc.  In some sense, if you were to send a low spending customer to a competitor it might be a good strategy in a competitive industry :).

 

 

It should be ROI and to more precise: ROI in the long run. If someone holds shares in CCL and knows that this year there will be tremendous profits because CCL sells all their ships, but next year there is no company left, the shares are worth what the ships are worth. Investors are not that stupid.. One more ship, 1 billion dollar, we expect to earn 5 billion in the next 20 years, that works out to such and such, so that's why we ordered that ship. And the investors go "no, there's a new crisis coming up, you can't fill the ship" or "hurray, more money! Go ahead and order more ships for China!"

 

2 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Having folks who are "profitable enough" are fine as long as you have the excess capacity. 

It's not as if you order a ship and the next week it's sailing, but there's no law either saying that cruise lines can have only so many berths. RC 

 

9 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

it was said best by Gordon Gekko when he claimed that "Greed is good."

 

I never saw the movie, but if that is the gist (and I guess he was depicted as an ***), he was totally right. If there was no greed, there wouldn't be a cruising industry and this site wouldn't exist. (and the norm would not be to have a vacation with cocktails once in a lifetime. The norm would be to hungry all your life and then die from a disease for which you can now get the cure at Wallmart for a few bucks)

 

Also, re "profitable enough", notice that the best performing companies anywhere are not catering to the rich but to the masses. Offering the cheapest supermarket, the cheapest furniture, the cheapest burgers gets you rich sooner than trying to sell the best caviar, wine, art, cars or watches. 

[iancal]

I did not say that HAL does not analyze customer data.  I said that to do so they would need much better IT skills than those displayed on designing, building, and operating their customer facing applications.

[sail7seas]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

These are US Corporations where the current bottom line (profits) are given so much emphasis.  Longer range thinking like we see in some Asian cultures do not carry the same weight.   CEO's have a lot of pressure to perform and that performance is generally measured by profit, ROI, etc.  In some sense, if you were to send a low spending customer to a competitor it might be a good strategy in a competitive industry :).    Having folks who are "profitable enough" are fine as long as you have the excess capacity.  But as a CEO I would prefer to fill all my berths with bigger spenders.   or perhaps it was said best by Gordon Gekko when he claimed that "Greed is good."

 

Hank

 

Use of   Common sense is always good.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[3rdGenCunarder]

8 hours ago, slidergirl said:

That would make it kind of a zero sum for HAL - give it out and get it back...  

 

Based on what I read on the HAL site, most veterans (I'll say that instead of old folks), seem to be more likely to take their own private excursions than book the ones through HAL.  That is another revenue stream that is missed. 

 

I agree. I think a lot of new cruisers book ship's tours for security (not missing the ship) or because it doesn't occur to them that there might other tours they could take. Plus, they're excited about the cruise and the website offers all those cruises and other packages to buy, so convenient!  We veterans (thank you!) have learned to shop around. Also, we may be returning to a port we've been to before, so we know the area and feel more confident in our choices for independent tours. 

 

[HappyInVan]

Data mining combines information about you from multiple sources; the websites you visit, the purchases you make, your questions on google/yahoo search, the information you enter in your HAL profile. It is useful in identifying potential customers for the data miner's clients. 

 

Search for a cruise ship online, and cruising advertisements will pop up on your browser. A brand  pays for access to the data miner, to find the right customers. You may get an email or postal solicitation.

 

BTW, you don't need a lot of IT skills to be a data mining customer.

 

Data mining is a useful tool for the sales department. But, strategic marketeers must choose the 'right' customer. And, all the data mining in the world will be useless unless you have the right product.

 

I'll say it again. The fares on HAL are too low, leading to 'cheap' passengers who do little extra spending. These 'cheap' passengers have accumulated over the years. Nothing would change if you got rid of the old timers and don't raise the fares. 

 

There will still be 'cheap' passengers among the newcomers. And, quality will still be going downhill. The idea that you can be saved by an influx of younger high-spenders is a mirage.

 

On my May B2B trip on the Rotterdam, the Norway portion of the itinerary had 80% Dutch. Most of these passengers came with tour groups. There were a lot of younger passengers with their families. They were active and noisy. Frankly, these tourists were not typical of HAL middle-class passengers.

 

So, you can get rid of the old timers by turning HAL into Fun Central. But, HAL will still have the same problem. Overcapacity leading to a failure to maintain their premium positioning. 

 

I'm told that Celebrity seems to be doing better. Able to charge higher fares as their value/quality eroded less. Well done!

 

Someone said that the MSC Yacht Club has been so successful that they are launching Yacht Club ships. They're following the money. They're not just cutting costs/value.

[AncientWanderer]

HappyinVan, comparing to Celebrity isn't really apples to apples.  Their ships are very stratified.  You get what you pay for.  We just sailed with them -- liked it okay as we dined in their special Blu restaurant that came with our category of cabin.   But we had one lunch in the MDR to get a feel for what that had to offer.  I've never seen tables closer together on any cruise ship.  It was awful.  Loud, crowded.  That was one and done.

 

We've not sailed with MSC, but my understanding is that their formula is much like Celebrity's.

 

Maybe HAL is trying to emulate Celebrity with their Club Orange.  I don't know, but HAL seems to really be in a place of transition.

 

 

[iancal]

We like some HAL ships.  Would we pay more for a Eurodam verandah cabin than we would for an X Solstice or Princess balcony.   Probably not because although we see differences in all three they have more in common  with each other from our perspective.  We have no emotional tie to any of them hence we do not assign a price based premium.

Edited September 14, 2019 by iancal