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Why do you hate HAL so much?

LoveHAL

By LoveHAL,
in Holland America Line

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Stateroom_Sailor

Stateroom_Sailor

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

You know that the end is in sight when those in their 30s are interested in HAL. They're keen on the compact size of the ships and the low prices. And, they can bask in the classy interior. So like a luxury hotel! But, there's got to be VR, or no deal!

They think that HAL is CCL-plus.

 

I'm 41, this sounds like us!

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cruisemom42 Great Review Rare

cruisemom42

Posted
Posted

Forgive me for a little "tough love" here, but...

 

I started reading these boards about 7-8 years ago mainly to keep my parents updated on their favorite line (they are not online) but gradually have taken some more HAL cruises on my own and have gained a greater understanding/appreciation for the line.

 

During ALL of that time I've read numerous complaints from HAL regulars that things were headed downhill in a hand basket. However, the same can be said of just about every other line -- and I am not even going to say every "mass market" line, because the same things are said on the premium and luxury line boards.*  Food quality has decreased, passenger loads have increased, less is spent on special touches, spaces are being made to earn more money, franchises/partnerships are more common...

 

Change is real, and no amount of whining or opining is going to turn the tide on the larger trends that are shaping "modern cruising".  A majority of people live and dress more casually. Many don't want to dress up for formal nights or have lengthy dinners -- two "staples" of early cruising. (But they do want good food.)  Cunard, Brits and the older demographic aside, a majority also don't care much about dancing. Most want to be 'connected' -- it's not considered a burden or a chore to communicate with others, it's fun and relaxing. These are just a few societal trends. God help us if the trend of treating our pets as family members continues to evolve to the point where we even share cruising with them -- but it could happen.

 

Some things we just have to accept if we want to continue cruising. We are not going to turn the tide on larger ships for mass market lines (and HAL is a mass market line). We cannot protest every single change with shouts of "that's not how it was in the good old days".  What HAS worked is when there has been concerted and concentrated feedback on some specific new initiative that people really hate: for example the "charge for two entrees" fiasco on HAL or the more recent "let's eliminate free in-cabin movies" on Celebrity that was walked back....

 

I think the HAL board would be a much pleasanter place if people would learn to make peace with the current HAL. The line's loyalists do not like any suggestion that they look elsewhere for cruises, but at what point is one simply "enjoying the misery" by complaining about how miserable the current state is making them....yet vehemently refusing any suggestion that they should consider cruising with another line that might offer an experience more like the HAL of old...

 

Nothing is going to be 100% perfect in this world. If you thought the old HAL was -- well, that's partly the effect of nostalgia. A more important question than whether we like the current direction of HAL (or the entirely hyperbolic 'why do we hate HAL so much...') is whether we can live with it.  If not, perhaps it is time to stop making ourselves (and everyone else reading the constant complaints) miserable and find an alternative, on land or sea.

 

==================================================

 

*One differentiator, however, that I have seen between HAL and other boards during this period is that, while other cruise line forums have loyalists who tend to get excited about new directions and new launches (thinking of Celebrity when the Solstice class launched, or the excitement on Royal Caribbean when their gigantemoth ships began coming out....), HAL loyalists have begrudgingly welcomed any new builds, leading to a sort of unrelieved gloom here without much of an air of excitement about the future....

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iancal

iancal

Posted
Posted

From our perspective it is all about moving forward.  We are in our late sixties and have cruised on numerous lines.  We do not have enough good years in front of us to spend them pining away about the past, wishing for things that will never be again or things over which we have zero control.

 

When we were younger we decided not to be like some of those older people when we reached that age.  This has served us well in our business lives and in our personal lives. Besides, all businesses have the right to change their model or offerings.  Just as customer have the right to buy elsewhere.

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HappyInVan

HappyInVan

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

Change is real, and no amount of whining or opining is going to turn the tide on the larger trends that are shaping "modern cruising". 

 

Just a reminder. Always blame management. Never blame the customers.

 

Change is inevitable. But, you can 'follow' the trend or choose a different path. For management people, strategy is about the right kind of change. Carnival has 9 brands. RCL has just three brands. Hint!

 

Some of us are waiting for Carnival to do the smart thing, rather than follow the mirage that cost cutting can restore their profitability .

 

It's amazing how some of you guys have been praising Carnival. Completely oblivious to the dire straits of Carnival's operating profitability.

 

RCL has a 6 point advantage in gross margin, even though Carnival has more revenues from premium and luxury brands. Premium brands (HAL and Princess) 37% versus RCL (Celebrity) 25%. Luxury brands (Cunard and Seabourn) 8% versus RCL (Azamara) 4%.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cruise_lines

 

Who do you think needs to make the biggest cuts in value? A gold star for the person with the right answer!

 

BTW, should Carnival try to make up for the 6 points different in GM by cost cutting? It would be cutting value on the way to oblivion. Some of us care enough about HAL to resist the trend.


 

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cruisemom42 Great Review Rare

cruisemom42

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Just a reminder. Always blame management. Never blame the customers.

 

Change is inevitable. But, you can 'follow' the trend or choose a different path. For management people, strategy is about the right kind of change. Carnival has 9 brands. RCL has just three brands. Hint!

 

Some of us are waiting for Carnival to do the smart thing, rather than follow the mirage that cost cutting can restore their profitability .

 

It's amazing how some of you guys have been praising Carnival. Completely oblivious to the dire straits of Carnival's operating profitability.

 

RCL has a 6 point advantage in gross margin, even though Carnival has more revenues from premium and luxury brands. Premium brands (HAL and Princess) 37% versus RCL (Celebrity) 25%. Luxury brands (Cunard and Seabourn) 8% versus RCL (Azamara) 4%.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cruise_lines

 

Who do you think needs to make the biggest cuts in value? A gold star for the person with the right answer!

 

BTW, should Carnival try to make up for the 6 points different in GM by cost cutting? It would be cutting value on the way to oblivion. Some of us care enough about HAL to resist the trend.


 

 

I have not been singing Carnival's praises.

 

Resist if you like, but prepare for a future with no HAL at all rather than a 2019 version of HAL. If that's what you prefer, then so be it. Not everyone feels the same.

 

 

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slidergirl

slidergirl

Posted
Posted

This whole conversation has reminded me of two quotes from one of my heroes, Adm. Grace Murray Hopper:

 
"The most dangerous phrase in the language is, "We've always done it this way.""
and
"A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships are for. Sail out to sea and do new things."
 
 

 

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Ken the cruiser "Live from...." Rare

Ken the cruiser

Posted
Posted (edited)

Interesting. Now the Cruise Director has a new job and title, Cruise and Travel Director. Hopefully they still have at least one assistant. We're getting ready to go on a 40 day cruise on the Maasdam down under and it will be interesting to see how much the HAL experience has changed since we last sailed on the Zaandam in Jan 2018. I'm sure we'll have a great time, as we always do on a cruise, but our expectations aren't super high based on all the negativity that's on so many threads on the HAL forum these days.

Edited by Ken the cruiser
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HappyInVan

HappyInVan

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

Resist if you like, but prepare for a future with no HAL at all rather than a 2019 version of HAL. If that's what you prefer, then so be it. Not everyone feels the same.

 

 

 

Just a reminder. Always blame management. Never blame the customers.

 

BTW, what did you say you did? Public Relations?

 

Some of us are already exiting HAL. But, hope is still alive and we're keeping an eye on HAL and Carnival. There could be a management change. Replacements for Donald and Ashford.

 

Then, there could be a new set of 'right' passengers to succeed us.
 

 

Edited by HappyInVan
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iancal

iancal

Posted
Posted

Voting with your feet and with your wallet is, IMHO,the most effective way to send a message to management.   If folks moan and complain constantly about HAL’s change in direction and cuts but continue to sail on their ships what do you think management will do?  How has it worked so far?  

 

I thought so.

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HappyInVan

HappyInVan

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, iancal said:

Voting with your feet and with your wallet is, IMHO,the most effective way to send a message to management.   If folks moan and complain constantly about HAL’s change in direction and cuts but continue to sail on their ships what do you think management will do?  How has it worked so far?  

 

I thought so.

 

Thanks for your MANAGEMENT insights.

 

BTW, on the poll thread, rcka47 (post 168) has an important anecdote about RCL's response to his complaint.

 

Please note that there are 160 responses to the poll and 67% say no to Orlando. I wonder how many has dropped cruises with HAL? I have.

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kazu "Live from...." Rare

kazu

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

I wonder how many has dropped cruises with HAL? I have.

 

You’ve said that a few times but I guess repetitiveness is to be expected when you account for 50 posts in this thread. :classic_unsure:

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