Why do you hate HAL so much?

[ChinaShrek]

2 hours ago, Mosaic said:

There are so many cutbacks it is not necessary to name them.   Although, someone might wish that as an exact new thread.  Here is part of my take.  The people here who complain about complainers are, complainers.

 

 

 

What sets the tone for the cruising experience?  Cruise critic or the cruise line?  Someone who is reading this forum (but has not sailed on HAL) will think HAL is full of dejected misanthropes.  I want to sail with shiny, happy people.  The complaining does get old (especially when it always relates to the past).

[cruisemom42]

3 hours ago, Ken the cruiser said:

Just curious, what target age market are you in? We're now in our mid 60s and thought it was finally our turn after dealing with Frank Sinatra era music for so long. For you young ones, that means we graduated HS in the early 70s when Queen, Rod Stewart, Led Zeppelin and country rock were just coming on the scene. Our music era ended when Metallica and the like showed up. 

 

1 hour ago, SetAnOpenCourse said:

Don’t overlook punk and new wave.  Those of us from this era, I’d guess, are more the so-called target market.  

 

And some of us very much appreciate Sinatra’s music!

 

Early 50s here and I like many different kinds of music from Queen/Led Zep through punk, new wave and can even put up with a little Metallica. 😈 Also like the old 1960s 'beach music' and jazz and classical. A little Sinatra and 'big band' are fine, but a little goes a long way... (Please hold the country.)

 

However I will also agree that I do not want a ship to be like a Las Vegas hotel. Prefer smaller, more intimate and with more connection to the water.

[npcl]

21 hours ago, kazu said:

 

Ahh, but the elimination of the library does involve money.  People either have to buy a kindle or books to bring.

 

And eliminating the library and yum yum man does save the ship money.  I can explain it but I can’t make you comprehend it.

 

It’s a fact.  They were costs and they are being eliminated = cutbacks by your own definition.

if they take the space that was used for the library, and use it for another music venue, which actually costs them more money, is it really a cutback. 

 

or more of a recognition of a change where more people are carrying electronic reading devices, and that the library was getting used by a smaller and smaller percentage of passengers?

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by npcl

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, ChinaShrek said:

 

 I want to sail with shiny, happy people. 

 

On HAL? 

[HappyInVan]

7 minutes ago, npcl said:

if they take the space that was used for the library, and use it for another music venue, which actually costs them more money, is it really a cutback. 

 

 

 

 

Yes, it is a loss of benefits to some paying passengers.

 

Your line of argument is a dead end. All passenger facilities (including the public toilets) are used by some passengers, some of the time. Closing a facility is a cut in benefits.

 

Bear in mind that there is only one library. So, the loss of the library is important to some passengers.

[kazu]

28 minutes ago, npcl said:

if they take the space that was used for the library, and use it for another music venue, which actually costs them more money, is it really a cutback. 

 

or more of a recognition of a change where more people are carrying electronic reading devices, and that the library was getting used by a smaller and smaller percentage of passengers?

 

 

They haven’t used it for another music venue - they’ve used it for Exec programme.

 

No benefit to a lot since many will research their ports before they embark on their cruise 😉 

 

And as to your last statement, if you have been on some of the smaller ships where there are decent libraries, you will find that space always well used.  I remember hearing new HAL cruisers on the Rotterdam absolutely in awe of the library and the lovely space.

[slidergirl]

22 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

 

 

Early 50s here and I like many different kinds of music from Queen/Led Zep through punk, new wave and can even put up with a little Metallica. 😈 Also like the old 1960s 'beach music' and jazz and classical. A little Sinatra and 'big band' are fine, but a little goes a long way... (Please hold the country.)

 

However I will also agree that I do not want a ship to be like a Las Vegas hotel. Prefer smaller, more intimate and with more connection to the water.

Old Hippie here.  Born in the middle of the 50s.  in the 60s, got my mom to drive me to concerts at the Hollywood Bowl - The Monkees, the Supremes, Buffalo Springfield, the Doors.  Saw the stadium shows - Springsteen, Pink Floyd.  But, I was a music geek and was also into choral music (sang with some big choirs in the L.A. area).  Last night, I just went to a concert with Sting and the Utah Symphony (It was fantastic!).  While sitting in the parking lot waiting for the herd to leave, I was listening to Andrea Bocelli - the ladies tailgating next to me asked me to turn it up, so I opened all my car windows and let it blast!  Probably why I like PostModern Jazz - takes those classic rock songs and turns them into swing tunes!  

 

I'm not a social animal and don't need a lot of entertainment stimulation.  If I go to Las Vegas, I don't do the shows, I hang at the pool, have a great meal at a good restaurant, and try to pay for my trip at the craps table.  On a ship, I just don't gamble.  I actually enjoy the quiet and "lack of entertainment" on a ship.  I just don't whine over cutbacks - it's part of the business.  I don't care that the Yum Yum Man is gone, I don't care that the library is gone, I don't care that the HAL Cats are gone, I don't care that sometimes HAL tries new things, like making people pay for taking that second entree.   I go with the flow.  Some can't.  Oh well. I guess some don't do well with change.  

[MeandtheSea]

I just want to say I LOVE Holland America.  They are my favorite cruise company other than Cunard.

[Ken the cruiser]

So on a HAL cruise now, where can you go for a good laugh? I've heard all about the different music venues they're introducing on they're various ships, but where can you go nightly to have a good laugh? Are there any interactive game shows anymore or comedy central style venues? I've even heard the CD isn't even allowed to tell jokes on stage anymore?

Edited September 1, 2019 by Ken the cruiser

[Ken the cruiser]

Deleted

Edited September 1, 2019 by Ken the cruiser

[taxmantoo]

39 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

So on a HAL cruise now, where can you go for a good laugh? 

People watching at the buffet is a good start 

[npcl]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Yes, it is a loss of benefits to some paying passengers.

 

Your line of argument is a dead end. All passenger facilities (including the public toilets) are used by some passengers, some of the time. Closing a facility is a cut in benefits.

 

Bear in mind that there is only one library. So, the loss of the library is important to some passengers.

the loss is important to SOME, but that number is shrinking. The space has been replaced by another function. so it is a change in benefits. an old benefit removed, a new function added.

 

Cruise ships have limited space, llimited crew quarters. To add something new, something else has to go.

 

People talk about cuts, but the funny thing is the cruise line companies expense budgets per passenger per day are still increasing. A savings somewhere goes into additional expense elsewhere.

[npcl]

1 hour ago, kazu said:

 

They haven’t used it for another music venue - they’ve used it for Exec programme.

 

No benefit to a lot since many will research their ports before they embark on their cruise 😉 

 

And as to your last statement, if you have been on some of the smaller ships where there are decent libraries, you will find that space always well used.  I remember hearing new HAL cruisers on the Rotterdam absolutely in awe of the library and the lovely space.

The question is not if there are people there. The question is how important is is to what percentage of the passengers. On my last cruise from Sydney to Honolulu there were always people in the library area but it seemed like the same set of people, occupying, and often sleeping in the chairs. Out of 2000, not much turnover. In many ways llike the Crows Nest, people will grab the front chairs and hold them the entire day.

 

Great place, certainly have people present, but I don't you had more that 150 different people really getting a chance to use the space during the entire cruise. Quite often the same 30 people grabbing and using the space each day, often with one leaving and their spouse saving their chair.

 

What else was done when the libraries were replaced.  Other spaces have shifted, other functions added.  One has to look across the space use across the entire ship.

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by npcl

[ricka47]

Our main "go to" lines for years have been either RCI or X.  But, after trying HAL again last year after a 14 year break, we were so impressed by BB King's and the Lincoln Center Stage.  We don't sit around and drink or hang out in the casino.  So, these two options each evening were great for us and we enjoyed it very much. 

 

The low point of the cruise was on the second night, I missed a step (totally sober - one beer) and broke a bone in my foot.  So, I spent the rest of the week on the ship in a boot.  (Hint: get insurance, it covered it all even the cost of the boot.)

 

I have to admit though, that nothing else on the cruise really blew us away as it was pretty much a typical mainstream cruise experience with just OK food.  We did like Tamarind and will do that again.  But, we're not waiting until 14 years until we go again this time!

[kazu]

18 minutes ago, npcl said:

Great place, certainly have people present, but I don't you had more that 150 different people really getting a chance to use the space during the entire cruise. Quite often the same 30 people grabbing and using the space each day, often with one leaving and their spouse saving their chair.

 

Oh for crying out loud, most people don’t necessarily stay there.  The come browse a book or two and take it back to their cabin or to another location to read.  Just because you’ve seen the same people there doesn’t mean those are the only people using it.

 

You are ASSUMING a lot.  I know as I don’t stay in the library, but I certainly use it.  And, I notice the activity.  I’ve seen lots returning books that were never there, like myself.

 

On a 7 day Caribbean, it’s no big deal.  On a cruise with a lot of sea days, crossing the Atlantic or Pacific, etc., a library is very appreciated.  I will just have to use my IPad or bring my own but it’s not the same as browsing for something you hadn’t thought of reading.  

[AncientWanderer]

6 minutes ago, ricka47 said:

Our main "go to" lines for years have been either RCI or X.  But, after trying HAL again last year after a 14 year break, we were so impressed by BB King's and the Lincoln Center Stage.  We don't sit around and drink or hang out in the casino.  So, these two options each evening were great for us and we enjoyed it very much. 

 

The low point of the cruise was on the second night, I missed a step (totally sober - one beer) and broke a bone in my foot.  So, I spent the rest of the week on the ship in a boot.  (Hint: get insurance, it covered it all even the cost of the boot.)

 

I have to admit though, that nothing else on the cruise really blew us away as it was pretty much a typical mainstream cruise experience with just OK food.  We did like Tamarind and will do that again.  But, we're not waiting until 14 years until we go again this time!

 

Maybe a bit off topic, but would you mind sharing what kind of insurance you purchased?  The medical insurance threads always leave me confused.  You sound like a satisfied customer, ricka47.

[ricka47]

16 minutes ago, AncientWanderer said:

 

Maybe a bit off topic, but would you mind sharing what kind of insurance you purchased?  The medical insurance threads always leave me confused.  You sound like a satisfied customer, ricka47.

 

We get the Allianz yearly plan and used it three times in 2018!  You pay a flat fee (we get the middle-priced one - All Trips Prime),  for the entire year and it covers the entire family.  My granddaughter came down with something on the Oasis of the Seas, my wife got some kind of infection one the Empress of the Seas Cuba cruise and I broke my foot on the Nieuw Amsterdam.  It was our first time making any claim but they paid them all.  Yes, I am a satisfied customer!

[Oceansaway17]

One of the best cutbacks was eliminating midnight buffets as they were pretty but a waste of food.

 

I think cutbacks occur based on surveys.

If something is not working for majority of people, then they will make changes.

New HAL ships appear to be improving music venues as well as creating World One stage.

 

 

Gotta embrace change. I miss music stores and book stores, but I now just use internet.

 

Most cruiselines are copying each other.

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, npcl said:

the loss is important to SOME, but that number is shrinking. The space has been replaced by another function. so it is a change in benefits. an old benefit removed, a new function added......

 

People talk about cuts, but the funny thing is the cruise line companies expense budgets per passenger per day are still increasing. A savings somewhere goes into additional expense elsewhere.

 

How do you know that the number is shrinking? As kazu pointed out, lots of people borrow books from the shelves. I do, while spending little time in the library. In fact, this is what differentiates HAL from other companies. The strength of its library.

 

I would not cruise on a ship that has no quiet space. Where is that quiet space once the library is gone?

 

Ship space is limited. HAL needs to carefully consider any alterations. You could take the company's POV that individual passengers don't matter in the grand scheme of things. That is a reflection on the company's respect for its paying passengers.

[cowmilker]

4 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

Where is that quiet space once the library is gone?

Uh, I was on the Kdam in the Med. The ship was totally full.  I found plenty of places to sit quietly and read a book (and I do that a LOT, but they are all on my Kindle).  It was never once a problem.

[RuthC]

9 minutes ago, cowmilker said:

Uh, I was on the Kdam in the Med. The ship was totally full.  I found plenty of places to sit quietly and read a book (and I do that a LOT, but they are all on my Kindle).  It was never once a problem.

Where did you find to sit in public areas that didn't have that awful overhead noise from the music system? 

[Ken the cruiser]

30 minutes ago, Oceansaway17 said:

Gotta embrace change. I miss music stores and book stores, but I now just use internet.

 

Most cruiselines are copying each other.

As far as internet service in your HAL cabin, do you get a strong signal with plenty of bandwidth to download those books? In our past experiences, we have always had to go to the Explorers Lounge or up to the Crows Nest to get a good signal and usually after 9 pm.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Ken the cruiser

[cowmilker]

4 minutes ago, RuthC said:

Where did you find to sit in public areas that didn't have that awful overhead noise from the music system? 

 

I don't find the music "awful" and it doesn't bother me at all.  Right now, I'm trying to figure out what you're talking about, frankly.

I've spent quite a few hours in the Lincoln Center or BB King area (when they were not performing or rehearsing. Nobody bothered me at all. I just found a corner and curled up.  🙂

 

Occasionally, I did something astonishing.  I read in my room, all by myself, curled up on the bed with some fruit as a snack.  Husband went and did whatever it is they do without us.

[HappyInVan]

25 minutes ago, cowmilker said:

Uh, I was on the Kdam in the Med. The ship was totally full.  I found plenty of places to sit quietly and read a book (and I do that a LOT, but they are all on my Kindle).  It was never once a problem.

 

I'm sorry. I've tried the LCS when it was empty. On the Rotterdam, it was an open plan and there was too much traffic in the corridor.

 

In any case, there's no substitute for the library with its easy chairs and tables to set a drink. The tables with jigsaw puzzles, magazines and map books.  The hot drinks from the coffee bar. Chess anyone?  The experience is different from taking refuge in an empty room.

 

IMHO, it makes a difference if you are on a long voyage. You might not notice the difference on a weekend junket.

 

If I wanted an economy experience, I would sail on a Carnival ship!

 

 

[npcl]

1 hour ago, HappyInVan said:

 

How do you know that the number is shrinking? As kazu pointed out, lots of people borrow books from the shelves. I do, while spending little time in the library. In fact, this is what differentiates HAL from other companies. The strength of its library.

 

I would not cruise on a ship that has no quiet space. Where is that quiet space once the library is gone?

 

Ship space is limited. HAL needs to carefully consider any alterations. You could take the company's POV that individual passengers don't matter in the grand scheme of things. That is a reflection on the company's respect for its paying passengers.

How do you know that it is not? 1 Persons statement that lots of people are checking books in and out.

 

How many people carry electronic e-book readers compared to 10 or even 5 years ago?

 

What is the sales volume of actual physical books compared to 5-10 years ago?

 

Pretty easy to get the stats on book sales and the volume of e-book readers.  Also pretty easy to see how many people, even those sitting in the chairs in the library are actually using e-book readers, as well as generic tablets and phones as readers.

 

It is also not just HAL making the change but other competing lines as well.  How much Library space do you find on NCL, Celebrity and Princess these days?  It is not only an industry change but to a large degree a cultural one as well, right along with less formal dress at public and business events.

 

The cruise lines have an extremely good idea how much use is occurring, as well as knowing how many people consider it to be important.

 

Yes, I as an individual or you as an individual do not matter much to the cruise lines.  Passengers, as a group, broken out by demographics do matter a great deal.  Customer service by its very nature deals with individuals, however, the practices are set up with the knowledge that the interactions end up being applied to thousands.  Thus the reason companies have well defined procedures for dealing with individuals.

 

As far as services being developed and offered, that is driven by the numbers, not by each individuals desires and wants.  If what the individuals wants is in line with the product offerings then all is well.  But overtime offerings do change based upon how the company sees the business changing based upon social, economic, competitive (not just cruise lies bu other travel as well).  A company will make the changes that it feels it needs to, to offer a competitive product, in the ever changing world.  It will do that knowing that it will alienate some individual customers.

 

On my recent HAL cruises I have noticed far more people below 60, including families with young children then I have ever seen on HAL cruises before

Edited September 1, 2019 by npcl