Why do you hate HAL so much?

[deliver42]

We ar booked on the Nieuw Amsterdam for Jan, 2021, and were pretty excited to try HAL. My wife still is, but I'm having second thoughts now. On another thread, it's been reported that the only entertainment staff now are the CD and ass't CD. We both enjoy production shows, and now they are gone. The Nieuw Statendam would probably be better for me with the inclusion of the rock venue, but at that time, it's only doing extended cruises, which put it out of our range. I know it's a long way off, but, like I said, I'm having second thoughts.

[sail7seas]

30 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

A classic millennial approach.  If you don’t think like me or complain about something you are a hater.  Many can’t accept that  someone has a different opinion.  And to have that approach on a forum titled Cruise Critic is laughable.

 

That  assumes   he/she who assigns the  'hater'  label  actually  has a sense of humor    

 

 

 

30 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

 

by the way, to those who have accused me of being a hater, we are having a wonderful time on board the Maasdam right now!

 

..  Hate r and worse.   sigh

 

 

HAPPY the beautiful Maasdam is making you happy  We spent Many  a  happy day, night month on her.

 

stay safe and enjoy

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2019 by sail7seas

[ChinaShrek]

I have posted this before but I will say again here.  The biggest problem with the HAL board is that many posters (especially with high post counts) are convinced that there is only one way to cruise.  That attitude is pervasive on the HAL forum but not as present on Carnival or RCI.  Many on the HAL board talk about cruising for 20+ years and yearn for the days of yore.  We need more open-minded readers (and posters).  All opinions are valid and there really is no right way to cruise the world.

[npcl]

5 hours ago, AncientWanderer said:

I don't see any particular demographic being catered to.  To me, Carnival is making all of its various lines very homogenized, so that nobody is particularly attracted or repelled.  That way, they can just get their various ships out in all the waters of the world and fill them up with people -- any and all people.  This came to me when I read complaints about the cheese on the Seabourn thread.  With economies of scale, probably all lines are now getting the same cheese.  And the same meats, etc., etc.

 

If the basic product on all the various lines is "acceptable," people will pay to cruise.  At this point, HAL and Princess are just about interchangeable to me.  The only "outlier" I see is Carnival Cruise Line.  They do seem committed to attracting partiers.  Maybe because those partiers could scare off other guests, so put them all together?  Who knows?

 

In any case, we do all kinds of travel -- DH driving, organized bus tour groups, staying with friends and family.  I still like cruises the best and have never been on a HAL cruise that I didn't enjoy.

 

 

I see considerable difference between HAL and Princess within the scope that all mass market cruise lines are more similar then different. Though HAL is closer to Princess then it is to Celebrity or NCL.  Though it is closer to what Celebrity used to be.

 

HAL and Princess have different ship design philosophy with HAL being more traditional and Princess designed around the plaza.  Princess is certainly in the 3000+ range, HAL is in the below 3000 range.   Princess entertainment is placed in general use locations and is more of the game type, whereas HAL is focused on the music venue approach.

 

Even the new larger HAL ships do not seem crowded, except for the buffet, the lack of a venue like the international cafe certainly shows up with most during the day food options being located on Lido.

 

HAL seems to have better food quality, Princess seems to have better selection.

 

Princess cabins have too little seating, HAL cabins have too much.

Edited September 4, 2019 by npcl

[npcl]

1 hour ago, deliver42 said:

We ar booked on the Nieuw Amsterdam for Jan, 2021, and were pretty excited to try HAL. My wife still is, but I'm having second thoughts now. On another thread, it's been reported that the only entertainment staff now are the CD and ass't CD. We both enjoy production shows, and now they are gone. The Nieuw Statendam would probably be better for me with the inclusion of the rock venue, but at that time, it's only doing extended cruises, which put it out of our range. I know it's a long way off, but, like I said, I'm having second thoughts.

The production shows are gone, but the I thought the new dance shows were actually pretty good.  Atleast what I saw two weeks ago on Eurodam was.  If you ever watch America's got talent and seen any of the dance skits where the dancers movements are synced to the background displays and the screen reacts based upon those movements.  That is similar to one of the new shows, with various dancers executing a number of different skits of 5 minutes or so each.

Edited September 4, 2019 by npcl

[AncientWanderer]

14 minutes ago, npcl said:

I see considerable difference between HAL and Princess within the scope that all mass market cruise lines are more similar then different. Though HAL is closer to Princess then it is to Celebrity or NCL.  Though it is closer to what Celebrity used to be.

 

HAL and Princess have different ship design philosophy with HAL being more traditional and Princess designed around the plaza.  Princess is certainly in the 3000+ range, HAL is in the below 3000 range.   Princess entertainment is placed in general use locations and is more of the game type, whereas HAL is focused on the music venue approach.

 

Even the new larger HAL ships do not seem crowded, except for the buffet, the lack of a venue like the international cafe certainly shows up with most during the day food options being located on Lido.

 

HAL seems to have better food quality, Princess seems to have better selection.

 

Princess cabins have too little seating, HAL cabins have too much.

 

Well, sure there are some minor differences -- little pros and cons.   My point was that they are now both sufficiently "vanilla" that they are interchangeable in my mind.  I would sail on either one, if they have an itinerary we want.  And I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing.  There are more ships to choose from, more routes to look at.  Frankly, I find that exciting.  We have been anxious to do a Singapore to Europe run, and it's amazing how many perfectly acceptable ships there are to choose from, and so many different itineraries to look at.

 

I think it's a good time to be cruising.  Prices are decent, the cruise product is acceptable. The world is our oyster.

 

In any case, the title of this thread is pretty inflammatory, as others have noted.  I find it helpful and appropriate that people can share cruise experiences.  Nothing wrong with having a heads up to maybe skip the Club Orange upcharge, order the pork chop instead of the beef, things like that.  That doesn't mean anybody hates HAL.  HAL ships go to some amazing places, and provide a great degree of comfort to passengers traveling to those amazing places.

[Cruzaholic41]

Personally, I see huge differences between HAL, Princess and Celebrity. They might be categorized the same, but I don’t think they’re similar at all. 

[iancal]

If you want a ship that mirrors your exact requirements then go ahead and charter one.  If not, pick one that is closest to you wants and desires. 

 

This business of wistfully thinking about what was in the past or complaining and griping about a cruise line or the direction of it's management is a complete waste of time and energy.  Get off the dime and move forward.  Here is today's news....they won't be changing things to meet your every wish,  desire, and memory.

 

If you are  like me you have more past that you have future.  Make the best of it.  Don't cheat yourself out of the present because of  some misplaced sense of entitlement.  Just 'go for it' and move on with the rest of us.  And if that ship or that cruise line does not work out simply choose another one next time. Heaven knows there is a lot to choose from out there.

 

And if the library is not to your liking..well live with it and be a tad flexible.  Look for something else in that ship that exceeds your expectations and perhaps pleasantly surprises you or your misconceptions.   Mints not quite right either....then bring your own and move on.   

 

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by iancal

[AncientWanderer]

8 minutes ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

Personally, I see huge differences between HAL, Princess and Celebrity. They might be categorized the same, but I don’t think they’re similar at all. 

 

I was only speaking of the Carnival family of brands and what their direction might be with HAL.  Celebrity does seem on the whole to be headed in its own direction.  I prefer Carnival brands.  I think they deliver a good product.

 

Our preference is the Vista class ships, or the Eurodam.  We love those.  But HAL is building larger ships, which bring them more in line with Princess.  We are avoiding the new large ships on both lines.  On Princess, we can't stand their MDR, but think their Lido buffet is much better than HAL; so we visit specialty restaurants or the buffet on Princess.   We enjoy the MDR on HAL ships.  The tables aren't too close together, it's quieter, and the food is nice.  But these things are "workable," and I think Carnival knows that.  The gap is closing between all of their lines.  If one of their ships is going where we want to go, we will be onboard.  They manage to deliver a solid product at a competitive price. 

 

But I'd like to be wrong here.  I would love it if Carnival decided they need to keep HAL operating at a "premium" level, with all the niceties of old.  I just personally don't see any indication of that happening.  

[Aquahound]

17 minutes ago, AncientWanderer said:

I was only speaking of the Carnival family of brands and what their direction might be with HAL.  Celebrity does seem on the whole to be headed in its own direction.  I prefer Carnival brands.  I think they deliver a good product. 

 

I guess I'm just the opposite.  I prefer the RCCL brands for too many reasons to say in just one post.

 

However, I also can't agree that HAL and Princess are similar.  They have a totally different vibe on board, totally different entertainment, and a huge difference in ship design and cabin design.  Plus, Princess has a mini suite category that HAL doesn't have across their whole fleet and they still do pool games, have live lido entertainment and do evening theme parties.  If anything, I'd say Princess feels a lot like RCI's older Radiance and Vision Class ships because the dailies almost look exactly alike.   

 

HAL, in my opinion, is in a league of its own.  I've always seen them as a mass market line trying to look like a premium line.  Sorta like when people put BMW emblems on their Toyotas.  Honestly, of all the lines I've sailed, I haven't felt similar to HAL on any of them.  

Edited September 4, 2019 by Aquahound

[AncientWanderer]

Well, as I said, the gap is getting narrower -- more lively entertainment on HAL, fewer libraries.  

They get more alike than different.  We've spent two 38-day runs on Princess ships, so did get to know them.  At 4-star, we know HAL well, too.  And that'll be my last comment about Carnival's portfolio of cruise lines.  They are lucky to have so much to work with.

[Cruzaholic41]

30 minutes ago, AncientWanderer said:

Well, as I said, the gap is getting narrower -- more lively entertainment on HAL, fewer libraries.  

 

Actually, Princess has decent libraries on their ships so I don’t know how you’re equating HALs cutting of libraries to Princess.  This is on Regal, one of their newest ships. 

 

 

[npcl]

34 minutes ago, Cruzaholic41 said:

 

Actually, Princess has decent libraries on their ships so I don’t know how you’re equating HALs cutting of libraries to Princess.  This is on Regal, one of their newest ships. 

 

 

On the majestic they have combined the library and the internet Cafe in this same space.  No sign of a Library in the deck plans on the Sky.  They have also combined the Library and the internet cafe on some of the older ships.  Reducing the space for both functions (more people bringing their own devices, less need for shared computers in the Internet Cafe).

 

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by npcl

[HappyInVan]

13 hours ago, npcl said:

Yes, look at the 10Q and 10Ks filed  y each company (RCL, CCL, NCLH) it shows how much revenue comes from fares and how much comes from online spend.  25-29% of total revenue comes from online spend, depending upon the company (which does not include gratuities which by US accounting standards is outside of the accounting system as long as it is fully distributed to the crew and therefore is not included in either the revenue or expense. But it MUST be fully distributed to the crew).  That percentage is considerably more than any cruise lines profit margin.  

 

 

 

Thanks for the info. Most of the extras are from excursions and internet packages. Can't see too many manicure and massage customers on HAL. On my last cruise, I earned 19 cruise days and 5 spending credits. So?

[HappyInVan]

On 9/2/2019 at 10:44 AM, slidergirl said:

Spot on, as usual...

 Any business has to attract new customers to stay in business.  As generations and demographics change, the offerings have to change.  We see posts from those 4and 5* folks who boast of their free or heavily discounted meals at the pay-for restaurants, the free laundry.  They aren't bringing any decent on-board revenue.  

 

That's being disrespectful. Those with 4 and 5 Mariner stars have paid their way over the years. It isn't right to generalize your prejudice about those with earned entitlements.

 

HAL set the rules. Everyone (yourself included) will be looking to maximize the benefits to themselves.

 

Yes, there are thrifty cruisers who spend little extra. That's why the company has to price the basic fare correctly, and not just cut costs. Or, squeeze blood from stone. 

 

Bravo to SilverSeas who has had the guts to sell an all-inclusive model. Just purchased by RCL, and new ships being built.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silversea_Cruises

There will be always be big spenders, as well as the thrifty. Loyal customers are important during the bad periods, like the big financial crisis. 

 

That's why companies try to lock their customers into reward programs. Do you have an alternate model?
 

[HappyInVan]

What's this about Carnival rescuing HAL? While the company had been winding down for several years,  Carnival paid a substantial price in 1989 for the cruise business.

 

“It ceased operating as a Dutch line in 1989, when it was purchased by Carnival for 1.2 billion guilders (€530 million). The proceeds were put into an investment company (HAL Investments), the majority of which is owned by the van der Vorm family.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland_America_Line#Current_Holland_America_Line_fleet

Carnival bought a company (HAL) and built a brand based on HAL's experience with classic cruising. The customers made it work by paying money and sailing on the ships. In the POV of modern business, we made it a success together.

 

Then, Carnival Corp ruined it by over-expanding. The existing ships (1980s to early 1990s) had a capacity of only 5k. The R and S class ships added 8k to passenger capacity. The V and Signature class added another 8k, net of the retirement of the small ships (30k to 50k GT). The 3 Pinnacle ships will add another 8k capacity.

 

Struggling to fill the ships, management kept prices down. That's why some passengers noticed that after-inflation prices have fallen on some cruises. 

 

On the other side of the coin, it meant that HAL had to cut costs. Hence, the vocal protests about food and entertainment etc.

 

The bottom line is that Carnival Corp has bragging rights as #1 in sales. 

[Cruzaholic41]

7 hours ago, ronbe65 said:

That said, Carnival Corp. is still operating five best passenger ships in the world.

 

And what exactly are those 5 best ships in the world?

[Cruzaholic41]

According to who?  That’s drastically different from Cruise Critic’s polls and other sites I’m finding. 

[npcl]

10 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

That's being disrespectful. Those with 4 and 5 Mariner stars have paid their way over the years. It isn't right to generalize your prejudice about those with earned entitlements.

 

HAL set the rules. Everyone (yourself included) will be looking to maximize the benefits to themselves.

 

Yes, there are thrifty cruisers who spend little extra. That's why the company has to price the basic fare correctly, and not just cut costs. Or, squeeze blood from stone. 

 

Bravo to SilverSeas who has had the guts to sell an all-inclusive model. Just purchased by RCL, and new ships being built.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silversea_Cruises

There will be always be big spenders, as well as the thrifty. Loyal customers are important during the bad periods, like the big financial crisis. 

 

That's why companies try to lock their customers into reward programs. Do you have an alternate model?
 

Last time I looked Seabourn has a similar model to Silversea and it is owned by CCL.  So does Crystal and it was sold to a Chinese conglomerate. Regent does as well and it is owned by NCLH.  Why do you think Silverseas sold itself to RCL?  It needed the capital that a large cruise holding company can provide.  

 

Bottom line even the luxury brands have problems with small ships, even with their fares.  They need the borrowing power that an RCL, CCL and NCLH has.

 

 

[npcl]

10 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

What's this about Carnival rescuing HAL? While the company had been winding down for several years,  Carnival paid a substantial price in 1989 for the cruise business.

 

“It ceased operating as a Dutch line in 1989, when it was purchased by Carnival for 1.2 billion guilders (€530 million). The proceeds were put into an investment company (HAL Investments), the majority of which is owned by the van der Vorm family.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland_America_Line#Current_Holland_America_Line_fleet

Carnival bought a company (HAL) and built a brand based on HAL's experience with classic cruising. The customers made it work by paying money and sailing on the ships. In the POV of modern business, we made it a success together.

 

Then, Carnival Corp ruined it by over-expanding. The existing ships (1980s to early 1990s) had a capacity of only 5k. The R and S class ships added 8k to passenger capacity. The V and Signature class added another 8k, net of the retirement of the small ships (30k to 50k GT). The 3 Pinnacle ships will add another 8k capacity.

 

Struggling to fill the ships, management kept prices down. That's why some passengers noticed that after-inflation prices have fallen on some cruises. 

 

On the other side of the coin, it meant that HAL had to cut costs. Hence, the vocal protests about food and entertainment etc.

 

The bottom line is that Carnival Corp has bragging rights as #1 in sales. 

Carnival paid a substantial price, but relatively pennies on the dollar for the assets.  The value of the Alaska business was worth more than what they paid for the entire line.

 

The really funny thing is how you talk about CCL ruining HAL, yet it has grown significantly in the 30 years since purchased.  Right along with the rest of the cruise industry.  Over expansion would mean ships sailing empty, which they are not doing.

 

Bottom line is they acquired HAL for pennies on the dollar.  They have executed a business model that has grown the business significantly. 

 

HAL has to work to a budget. However, while entertainment has changed I doubt they spend less money on it.  Musicians have moved to the music venues. Production shows replaced by modern dance productions.  Crew slots have been moved around (crew bunks is a limited asset so if you add a new position you pretty much have to remove another).

 

The food on HAL is as good as any of the lines it competes with Princess, Celebrity primarily. 

 

The line is changing and leaving you behind.  In the mean time it seems to be attracting others that would not have sailed on it 5 years ago.  I am one of them. From the postings others are now trying it as well. Tried HAL 10 years ago.  Had not come back until 2 years ago.  Have done 50-100 days per year on various cruise lines for several years.  Found the production shows on the old HAL to be too much like watching Lawrence Welk. Two years ago had found them much improved to at least the level of Princess. Now they are gone but the new dance shows are as interesting.  Now if we want old style production shows we can book Princess.  When we want Lincoln center and the new dance productions we have HAL.  With the grand kids it is RCL. At other times Oceania.  Primarily we book by route and circumstances but are not tied to any particular cruise line, even though we have high frequent cruiser status on several.

[sail7seas]

16 hours ago, npcl said:

I see considerable difference between HAL and Princess within the scope that all mass market cruise lines are more similar then different. Though HAL is closer to Princess then it is to Celebrity or NCL.  Though it is closer to what Celebrity used to be.

 

HAL and Princess have different ship design philosophy with HAL being more traditional and Princess designed around the plaza.  Princess is certainly in the 3000+ range, HAL is in the below 3000 range.   Princess entertainment is placed in general use locations and is more of the game type, whereas HAL is focused on the music venue approach.

 

Even the new larger HAL ships do not seem crowded, except for the buffet, the lack of a venue like the international cafe certainly shows up with most during the day food options being located on Lido.

 

HAL seems to have better food quality, Princess seems to have better selection.

 

Princess cabins have too little seating, HAL cabins have too much.

 

 

You can please some of the people, some of the tiem, soem you will  not please at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by sail7seas

[Billthekid]

With apologies to LOVE HAL who started the Part 1 topic which was very interesting discussion which as always deteriorates into an off subject matters.  I just want to add my 5 cents to the original discussion.

 

Love HAL ended his initial discussion with this sentence: " My question is, if it is so bad, why complain so much? Why not just spend your travel dollars elsewhere? Or, is it just fun to complain?"

 

The web site CRUISE CRITIC contains the word Critic which various dictionaries define as:

 

Definition of critic: 
: one who expresses a reasoned opinion on any matter especially involving a judgment of its value, truth, righteousness, beauty, or technique 

:a person who expresses an unfavorable opinion of something.
 :A person who forms and expresses judgments of the merits, faults, value, or truth of a matter.  

 

So the members of Cruise Critic who presented various dislikes about what is happening to HAL are well in line with the what a critic is and may or may not spend their dollars elsewhere and/or comment/complain as they please.
 

[JRG]

So feel welcome to complain or comment ....but please no venting.....this often comes across like anger management issues.   Venting is not an excuse to use CC.

 

Find an intelligent way to make your point or discuss your issue or ask a question.

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by JRG

[npcl]

13 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Thanks for the info. Most of the extras are from excursions and internet packages. Can't see too many manicure and massage customers on HAL. On my last cruise, I earned 19 cruise days and 5 spending credits. So?

You were the one that asked for proof when someone posted that HAL's profit comes from on board spend.

[sail7seas]

13 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Thanks for the info. Most of the extras are from excursions and internet packages. Can't see too many manicure and massage customers on HAL. On my last cruise, I earned 19 cruise days and 5 spending credits. So?

I have enjoyed many a pedi and mani on HAL ships... why do you  think HAL salons  are not doing lots of manies    and pedies?  Color me confused?   And, no massage customers?  what? Is this a joke and I am missing   the punch line?  If so, kindl y clarify.

 

Why would  HAL's salons  not be keeping  their manacurists busy?

 

 

Onboard spending comes in many forms, in addition to excursions and internet.  I almost always have an internet package.  On board spending you didn't mention includes, casino play, on board shops, art auctions, bingo and LIQUOR /  Wine sales.  How about the alternative restaurants for which there is a fee?  Cabanas on ships that  have  them and cabanas   as well as cabanas at HMC  et al

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by sail7seas