Do you Like the direction..

[SetAnOpenCourse]

1 hour ago, rkacruiser said:

 

If CCL had not acquired them, the company would not be here today.  HAL corporate at that time needed $$.  They did not have it.  New ships were needed in order to be competitive.  The acquisition provided that with the first ship being the first of the S Class ships, the Statendam.

Oh my, back to square one about HAL history. 😅

I for one am a little more convinced by the ideas surfacing in this thread, debunking the popular assertion that  HAL was saved by CCL.

[Copper10-8]

2 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

This is a family name with which I have never heard to the best of my recollection.  Are you willing to provide more detail about your post?

 

Nico van der Vorm, chairman/CEO of Holland America Line, 1967-1993. His daughter, Beatrijs van der Vorm-van den Wall Bake, would become godmother of Nieuw Amsterdam III in 1983. He was succeeded by A. Kirk Lanterman who, in turn, was succeeded by Stein Kruse

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Copper10-8

[Storylady]

12 hours ago, rucrazy said:

 I may be incorrect but i believe it was a hostile take over.. they were about to be purchased by RCI which would have given Royal a brand a step above Celebrity then at the last minute CCL moved in to take them over..

It may not be true but, that is the way I believe I remember it.

This paragraph on the history of HAL by Captain Albert explains the takeover:

 

On 10 January 1989. Carnival bought the Holland America Line. The question immediatelly comes up why? By the mid 1980’s Carnival had more or less cornered the seven-day mass market and it turned its eye to the Premium 5 Star market. The market segment of the industry where the Holland America ships operated in. Carnival started Project Tiffany to see how they had to go about it to accomplish that. It found two things, one it is not that easy to develop a product that is totally different than what you are used to and secondly the people cruising in the Premium market did not like Carnival at all. At the same time, Holland America was having problems with attracting new clients. First time cruisers, normally

select their cruise on cost and only sometimes on recommendation. There was no way that HAL with a $ 1200 a week ticket price could compete with a $ 300 a week for Carnival. Thus both sides had a good reason to come together and Holland America Cruises was taken over. It worked out fine; HAL became an independentbrand within the Carnival Corporation and extra funds became available for expansion. An order for two big ships that Holland America had been planning to have built in Germany at the Bremer Vulkan yard was not finalized; instead it was decided to built the medium sized S-Class.

 

As for whether HAL was going to be taken over by RCCL, ask Captain Albert.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Storylady

[HappyInVan]

5 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

This is a family name with which I have never heard to the best of my recollection.  Are you willing to provide more detail about your post?

 

This was discussed in the other thread where the trolls were claiming that Carnival rescued HAL, bought HAL for pennies, subsidized HAL etc. All publicly available info.

 

The van der Vorm family joined HAL in the 1930s, and helped rescue it in the 1970s. Withdrew from cargo and liner business. Focused on tourist industry in Alaska.

 

When HAL was sold in 1989, the family had the majority stake (68%?), and there was a complex financial scheme. HAL Investments using the money for investments. The holding company (HAL Holding N.V ) being in Curacao. 

 

https://www.halinvestments.nl/

 

Curacao being where HAL's shell company was located.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_takeover

 

https://nltimes.nl/2017/12/06/eu-releases-tax-haven-blacklist-netherlands

The shareholders are able to liquidate their investment in the Trust through the Amsterdam stock exchange. Note that the market cap is Euro 11.5b. P/E 37x. Price to book 1.5x.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/HAL:NA

 

I just don't buy the story that HAL was forced to its knees by Carnival predatory pricing in the Caribbean. Sounds to me like Mickey couldn't fill his Caribbean ships. Tried to steal customers from NCL and RCL. 
 

[HappyInVan]

2 hours ago, Storylady said:

This paragraph on the history of HAL by Captain Albert explains the takeover:

 

... It found two things, one it is not that easy to develop a product that is totally different than what you are used to and secondly the people cruising in the Premium market did not like Carnival at all. At the same time, Holland America was having problems with attracting new clients. First time cruisers, normally

select their cruise on cost and only sometimes on recommendation. There was no way that HAL with a $ 1200 a week ticket price could compete with a $ 300 a week for Carnival...

 

 

 Excuse me. This doesn't sound right. I just can't see $1200/week passengers being attracted to a $300/week brand. Similarly, I don't see $300/week passengers being able to sail on a $1200/week brand.

 

Here's an important question. Was the offer made solely for HAL customers, or was it an industry wide offer?

 

If HAL was the target (unlikely since it only had 4 ships), then HAL could deploy some ships to the Mediterranean during the winter.

 

If  the offer was industry-wide, NCL and RCL were the targets. They would simply neutralize the initiative by retaliating. Stealing CCL customers. Eventually, a ceasefire would happen as everyone would be losing money.

 

Usually, a big discount for new customers is made by a new competitor or if there is a lot of excess capacity. Which do you think it was?

 

 

 

 

 

[AL3XCruise]

24 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

I just don't buy the story that HAL was forced to its knees by Carnival predatory pricing in the Caribbean. Sounds to me like Mickey couldn't fill his Caribbean ships. Tried to steal customers from NCL and RCL. 

 

I don't have the time to seek out detailed financial data, but based on what I've seen here and on a few other sources it sounds like HAL was neither in danger of insolvency nor setting the world on fire.  The cruise market was evolving, so HAL's owners had two big questions facing them: 1) could their management team devise an effective strategy going forward and 2) were they willing/able to invest/secure the funding needed to support such a strategy.  There is nothing I've seen to prove the answer to either question was no, but they certainly both held substantial risk.  Trying to improve performance while meeting new market challenges is always tough, and if peers are performing better financially options for securing capital become more restrictive and expensive.  Presented with an offer that eliminated uncertainty and provided immediate cash, it makes sense the owners decided to sell and pursue other ventures.  Given HAL Investments current valuation, it seems like it was a smart choice.

 

Given CCL's larger size and and desire to create a broader portfolio, they had more options to secure capital and more incentive to accept the inherent risks.

[Storylady]

34 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 Excuse me. This doesn't sound right. I just can't see $1200/week passengers being attracted to a $300/week brand. Similarly, I don't see $300/week passengers being able to sail on a $1200/week brand.

 

Here's an important question. Was the offer made solely for HAL customers, or was it an industry wide offer?

 

If HAL was the target (unlikely since it only had 4 ships), then HAL could deploy some ships to the Mediterranean during the winter.

 

If  the offer was industry-wide, NCL and RCL were the targets. They would simply neutralize the initiative by retaliating. Stealing CCL customers. Eventually, a ceasefire would happen as everyone would be losing money.

 

Usually, a big discount for new customers is made by a new competitor or if there is a lot of excess capacity. Which do you think it was?

 

 

 

 

 

Since the quote was by Captain Albert, you will have to ask him. We were on the Prinsendam for its last week and he gave 5 lectures of which the history of HAL was one of them. He posted the talk and photos on his blog. I posted his comments as I didn’t  get the impression from him that it was a hostile take-over.  

[HappyInVan]

19 minutes ago, Storylady said:

Since the quote was by Captain Albert, you will have to ask him. We were on the Prinsendam for its last week and he gave 5 lectures of which the history of HAL was one of them. He posted the talk and photos on his blog. I posted his comments as I didn’t  get the impression from him that it was a hostile take-over.  

 

Thanks.

[HappyInVan]

On 9/21/2019 at 8:39 PM, cruisemom42 said:

 

I do. 

 

Your facts just seem to differ from everyone else's. 

 

Ohhh! Is this a popularity contest? Why bother to do research?

 

Fact: On the poll thread, 180 have voted. 66% say NO.

 

You're in PR. You're not ready to discuss marketing and strategy. Do an executive MBA with the managers. It'll open your eyes.

 

In the meantime, keep offering your opinion.
 

[iancal]

Does it really matter?  The HAL of the past no longer exists.  Whether HAl decided to sell, wanted to sell, or were in a bidding war with RCI really has no material impact on the HAL of today.   

 

The reality is that Carnival now controls HAL. 

Edited September 23, 2019 by iancal

[rucrazy]

16 minutes ago, iancal said:

The reality is that Carnival now controls HAL. 

This is true!

[cruisemom42]

7 hours ago, HappyInVan said:

Ohhh! Is this a popularity contest? Why bother to do research?

 

Fact: On the poll thread, 180 have voted. 66% say NO.

 

You're in PR. You're not ready to discuss marketing and strategy. Do an executive MBA with the managers. It'll open your eyes.

 

In the meantime, keep offering your opinion.
 

 

You really know how to grind an ax into dust, don't you?

 

You have no idea of my training and experience beyond one anecdote I posted re: a position I held some time ago, and I have no interest in enlightening you or anyone else. I might be a CEO or a snake milker, but what does it matter? I can assure you that any factual info I've posted has been 'researched', and anything else has been offered up as opinion (as is 99.9% of everything posted here.)

 

 

[Hlitner]

My goodness.  So much faux information.  There was nothing hostile about the sale.  It was simply a company that was not in a position to compete in a changing market, and the primary investors decided to take the money and run.  Yes, both major cruise corporations competed to buy HAL and CCL won the war.  There is nothing unusual about it.  CCL also snatched up Princess and some other companies.  RCCL (now RCI) went their own way and are also a successful company.  I think the company that bears watching in the current market is MSC, which is now the largest privately held cruise line.  Many don’t realize just how big the MSC shipping empire is...but they are poised to cause some major ripples in the industry.

 

Hank

 

[rucrazy]

9 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Yes, both major cruise corporations competed to buy HAL and CCL won the war.  T

Hank

 

 

Hank Thank you for confirming what I thought I knew I did..

[HappyInVan]

1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

My goodness.  So much faux information.  There was nothing hostile about the sale.  It was simply a company that was not in a position to compete in a changing market, and the primary investors decided to take the money and run.  Yes, both major cruise corporations competed to buy HAL and CCL won the war.  There is nothing unusual about it.  CCL also snatched up Princess and some other companies. ....

Hank

 

 

Hmmm!

 

From this BBC report, both RC and CCL bid for P&O Princess. This was post-9/11 when the industry was in a slump.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2359839.stm

 

Could this be what you remembered since I can find no reference to RC being involved in 1989 (30 year ago)?
 

[Copper10-8]

30 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Hmmm!

 

From this BBC report, both RC and CCL bid for P&O Princess. This was post-9/11 when the industry was in a slump.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2359839.stm

 

Could this be what you remembered since I can find no reference to RC being involved in 1989 (30 year ago)?
 

 

That's because RCCL never put in a bid for HAL. They took over Admiral Cruises and put in a bid for Costa which was rejected with Costa later joining the Carnival Corp

[rucrazy]

18 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

That's because RCCL never put in a bid for HAL. They took over Admiral Cruises and put in a bid for Costa which was rejected with Costa later joining the Carnival Corp

I know this was time before RCI took over Celebrity, because that happened in the second half of the 90's

Are you saying Celebrity did not bid on HAL?

If that is true then I am totally wrong.  

My apologies...

 

Joseph

 

[Copper10-8]

2 minutes ago, rucrazy said:

I know this was time before RCI took over Celebrity, because that happened in the second half of the 90's

Are you saying Celebrity did not bid on HAL?

If that is true then I am totally wrong.  

My apologies...

 

Joseph

 

 

 

No need for apologies Joseph! Neither RCCL, nor Celebrity, put in bids for HAL. Only Carnival did. If you've got the time (long reads), here is some history of RCCL/RCI

 

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/Royal_Caribbean_-_Part_1

 

https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/Royal_Caribbean_-_Part_2

[rucrazy]

7 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

Neither RCCL, nor Celebrity, put in bids for HAL.

Well Well Well ... SMH.. I will now go sit in the corner and be quiet.... send a bar server over if you see one! 

 

Joseph

Edited September 23, 2019 by rucrazy

[HappyInVan]

48 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

That's because RCCL never put in a bid for HAL. They took over Admiral Cruises and put in a bid for Costa which was rejected with Costa later joining the Carnival Corp

 

Thanks. Makes more sense. Can't believe that RCL and CCL fought over every brand.

 

CCL has acquired a number of companies under distress conditions. It's natural to presume that HAL (30 years ago) was the same.

 

That said, we must be careful not to defame professional people, particularly if they are not around to defend themselves.

 

The problem is that the rumour has become more 'elaborate' with each telling. Saying more about the purveyor than the target.

 

[sail7seas]

Are they residents of Netherlands?

 

 

 

 

 

[Copper10-8]

59 minutes ago, sail7seas said:

Are they residents of Netherlands?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who would "they" be, S7S?

[sail7seas]

13 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

 

Who would "they" be, S7S?

 

Quote

  Happy in Van   (post  229 this thread)

 

 

 

 

Quote

Quote

The van der Vorm family joined HAL in the 1930s, and helped rescue it in the 1970s. Withdrew from cargo and liner business. Focused on tourist industry in Alaska.

 

 

 

Sorry, Copper.  I thought   I had hit 'quote'  when I asked  that   question

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by sail7seas

[Copper10-8]

2 minutes ago, sail7seas said:

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, Copper.  I thought   I had hit 'quote'  when I asked  that   question

 

 

 

Yes, the van der Vorm family is as Dutch as you can get

[sail7seas]

5 minutes ago, Copper10-8 said:

 

Yes, the van der Vorm family is as Dutch as you can get

 

 

Dutch, Yes   🙂

 

 

But are they residents of Netherlands? Or maybe live elsewhere?     Aruba, Curacao,  Bonaire,,,  New York ?

 

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2019 by sail7seas