NCL's Maths

[smplybcause]

20 minutes ago, KeithJenner said:

The £1.465 is just the cruise fare. It doesn’t include port fees, DSC etc

 

As I mentioned earlier,  the cruise fare does include the free at sea payment and I took that out when calculating what I expected the revised fare to be.

 

The other people who have had their fare correctly adjusted (which is pretty well everyone else on our roll calls), are mixed between people who took the OBC and the hotel.

 

Duh, forgot UK is a little different. 

 

And well there goes my only plausible thought of why it was different.

[insidecabin]

They should have also offered you the option to cancel under the regulations.

 

Handy if prices have dropped and you want to rebook.

[KeithJenner]

33 minutes ago, insidecabin said:

have you compared to current pricing?

 

I saw on another thread where NCL prorata using the wrong base fares.

the cruise qualifies for the current 10% offer(not on sale away) and the free at sea gets 10% off as well.

taxes on the  11n are  £140pp

The cruise price has gone up fairly significantly since I booked. My guess is that you are correct in that they are basing the pro-rata on an incorrect amount.

 

I believe that the system is just taking 11/12 of an incorrect fare and then when they check it they are seeing that the 11/12 has been applied. Despite me stating a number of times that I am just getting a £15 reduction (which is so obviously not correct based on the original fare) they are just looking at the systems calculation which has an incorrect starting point.

 

The frustrating thing is that I have a good fare. I think the stated compensation is generous, but that is what they told me I would get and it is what I should get. It’s especially galling when everyone else on the roll calls is saying that they have received £300+ and I am being asked to make do with such a small amount. I have now asked three people to explain why my calculation is incorrect and have just been ignored.

 

Regardless of how good the fare is, im

mow in the position where the OBC will just cover the hotel and we will end up quite a bit worse off by the time we have bought some food and drink on that final day. That’s before I consider what I will do with the OBC now as I had planned to buy CruiseNext with them but that is in doubt now.

Edited September 13, 2019 by KeithJenner

[tomservo]

Maybe a friendly person from your roll call can get on the phone with you and NCL and they can compare both reservations to figure out why they got more of a refund than you. 

[smplybcause]

Sounds like it's time to move above customer service. Looks like you already have vivian's info, but here's what Elliott has https://www.elliott.org/company-contacts/norwegian-cruise-line-ncl/ I'd suggest reading about their proven methods before though send. The forums there are happy to give feedback on letters if you want. It should be fairly easy to get your point across - hopefully someone will actually read it correctly! 

[macandlucy]

I can't understand where the 15 pound amount comes from.  It makes no sense. Unless someone at NCL has mistakenly added the 100 pound OBC to 15 and come up with $115 pounds per person? Still wrong, but it's the only way I can get close to the amount you should be credited. 

 

You mentioned that there's a mix of people in your roll call who have chosen either the OBC or the free hotel night. If the passengers who have taken the OBC option have the same strange version of "pro rated", then perhaps that's what NCL is doing -- considering the OBC as part of the proportional refund. Still wrong, but at least that gets us closer to the correct amount.  

 

I'm curious now. I wonder if you changed your compensation to free hotel night if that would change your cruise pricing.  

 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by macandlucy

[ColeThornton]

It must be that crazy English metric math.  😉

[KeithJenner]

5 minutes ago, macandlucy said:

I can't understand where the 15 pound amount comes from.  It makes no sense. Unless someone at NCL has mistakenly added the 100 pound OBC to 15 and come up with $115 pounds per person? Still wrong, but it's the only way I can get close to the amount you should be credited. 

 

You mentioned that there's a mix of people in your roll call who have chosen either the OBC or the free hotel night. If the passengers who have taken the OBC option have the same strange version of "pro rated", then perhaps that's what NCL is doing -- considering the OBC as part of the proportional refund. Still wrong, but at least that gets us closer to the correct amount.  

 

I'm curious now. I wonder if you changed your compensation to free hotel night if that would change your cruise pricing.  

 

 

We can't change the hotel option now, as there was a set date we had to notify them by. However, nobody else seems to have had any impact whether or not the took the credit or hotel. In response to my question yesterday on the roll calls, everyone has  confirmed that they have the correct pro-rata (port fees are still being argued over) except for one person who can't be sure because they booked via a TA who lumped all the costs in together. They have received £300 refund though, so it looks in the right ballpark, if maybe a little low.

 

The £15 certainly is strange. Firstly, it is a very round sum, but also both my wife and I received £15 and so did our son on his much lower third person fare. Any correct interpretation of "pro-rata" would result in a lower reduction for him than for us. Just the fact that we all have the same reduction is proof that they haven't in fact pro-rated anything.

[macandlucy]

Hmm, well perhaps someone entered that amount manually and left off a zero. Insult to injury that the NCL rep said the calculation was correct when it's clearly an error.  If they insist it's correct, when basic arithmetic tells us it isn't, then the least they can do is explain  how 1/12 of 1,5xx is equal to 15.  And how and why their calculations are different for you and other passengers.

 

Stick with it.   I look forward to reading that you've received the correct amount credited to your account. Or, maybe an explanation of how math works on Planet NCL because that's not how we do it here on Earth.

 

 

 

 

[KeithJenner]

Just a quick update, in case anyone is interested

 

I have today been speaking to a supervisor at NCL's UK office. Principally, it was to cancel the CruiseNext vouchers that I purchased when I was on the Spirit last month, as the 30 days during which they can be cancelled and refunded ends tomorrow. She has set that process in motion.

 

I also cancelled the dining package for our son which I had previously purchased. This is so that I can purchase it onboard and use up some of the OBC we will receive, as I had previously been planning on using it for CruiseNext.

 

The person I was speaking to finally seems to be someone who is interested in the issue. She was careful not to give any opinion on my calculations, but did seem to understand my point that they can't just keep saying that the calculation is correct without some sort of explanation as to why that is the case, and my calculation wrong. I did get a hint of agreement when I pointed out that £15 can't be the pro-rata reduction on fares of different amounts.

 

She hopes to get back to me on Monday. We shall see what transpires, although I have a feeling that she will just get the same "we are right and that's all we are saying" response.

[lakelivin2]

Wow.  I'm disappointed that they would treat a loyal customer in this manner.  It is an obvious mistake in calculation and NCL should take responsibility.  I'll be following this.  Please keep us up to date.  

 

[insidecabin]

Which port has been dropped to warrant a refund on port related costs? 

[KeithJenner]

6 minutes ago, insidecabin said:

Which port has been dropped to warrant a refund on port related costs? 

We are missing Palma. The original itinerary had us visiting there on the last day, but now we go directly from Barcelona to Civitavecchia.

[room with a view]

Just to clarify … We are on this cruise and we have had a refund - a total refund of £295 on a BA balcony cabin.

We expected £374 based on our perceived price ( we purchased a package with flights/transfers/hotel) and as Keith knows we are not happy.

 

Our BA cabin when quoted by NCL (basic price without gratuities and "free at sea" ) was £2239 pp

 

[KeithJenner]

Yes, room with a view is the person I was referring to earlier when I said that there was one person who didn't seem to have quite the right refund. The fact that their TA hasn't split out the cruise cost for them makes it difficult to say for sure, but their refund looks a bit light.

 

It is perhaps relevant that we are both from the UK, which does suggest that there may be some other element in our fare, as well as the free at sea payment, which is not just the cruise fare, and therefore not included in the reduction. However, if we were to take the cruise fares as we know them at the time we booked, based on the reduction they got, mine should be in the region of £90 rather than the £15 I have received.

[insidecabin]

5 hours ago, KeithJenner said:

Yes, room with a view is the person I was referring to earlier when I said that there was one person who didn't seem to have quite the right refund. The fact that their TA hasn't split out the cruise cost for them makes it difficult to say for sure, but their refund looks a bit light.

 

It is perhaps relevant that we are both from the UK, which does suggest that there may be some other element in our fare, as well as the free at sea payment, which is not just the cruise fare, and therefore not included in the reduction. However, if we were to take the cruise fares as we know them at the time we booked, based on the reduction they got, mine should be in the region of £90 rather than the £15 I have received.

UK base fares include the taxes/fees element which normally would not be included in the base fare prorata.

The taxes/fees should get adjusted separately for the missing port.

As you said you need to do the free at sea separately

if service was included take that out and it will 11/12

 

Also the fare with TA packages is often different(lower) to the regular fare you see on NCL site.

Finding that number and any TA discount won't be so easy.

 

If you can find someone that booked direct you should have the taxes/fees before and after numbers on their invoices

Current 11n taxes UK £140 US $188

(they don't match makes a rate of $1.34)

 

I suspect the tax fees won't have change much for Palma

[insidecabin]

8 hours ago, room with a view said:

Just to clarify … We are on this cruise and we have had a refund - a total refund of £295 on a BA balcony cabin.

We expected £374 based on our perceived price ( we purchased a package with flights/transfers/hotel) and as Keith knows we are not happy.

 

Our BA cabin when quoted by NCL (basic price without gratuities and "free at sea" ) was £2239 pp

 

Following on from the last reply if NCL had £2239  that will include the taxes so lets knock off the £140 they currently are.

say £2100  1/12 £175pp, Total £350.

With you getting £295 that suggest the cruise fare in the package  was (295/2)*12=£1770

 

Getting your TA to break down how the calculations have been done won't be easy. 

 

[KeithJenner]

1 hour ago, insidecabin said:

UK base fares include the taxes/fees element which normally would not be included in the base fare prorata.

The taxes/fees should get adjusted separately for the missing port.

As you said you need to do the free at sea separately

if service was included take that out and it will 11/12

 

Also the fare with TA packages is often different(lower) to the regular fare you see on NCL site.

Finding that number and any TA discount won't be so easy.

 

If you can find someone that booked direct you should have the taxes/fees before and after numbers on their invoices

Current 11n taxes UK £140 US $188

(they don't match makes a rate of $1.34)

 

I suspect the tax fees won't have change much for Palma

Thanks for that.

 

Just to be clear, I notice that when I do a dummy booking for this cruise, it shows taxes/fees as £140. Is this the amount that you are referring to? If so then I don't think it is included in my calculations.

 

This is the actual detail from my original booking (taken from the cruise confirmation):

 

Guest fare £1,465

Govt Taxes/Port Exp/Fees £123

DSC £138.36

Total £1,726.36

 

The revised figures (from mince)are:

 

Cruise fare £1,450

Govt Taxes, Fees & Port Expenses £123

DSC £126.83

Total £1,699.83

 

It is interesting that the taxes/fees appears to have actually gone up after the change for new bookings, but I am ignoring that bit at the moment. I agree that the change for losing Palma would be minimal.

 

If I am correct that the £140 you are talking about is the amount showing as taxes/fees on the  booking then I believe my original calculation is correct. Obviously we don't know for sure with room with a view's booking.

 

Anyway, as we know, this will only make a minor difference anyway. For the figures that NCL have put through to be correct, the £1,465 original cruise fare would have needed to be made up as follows:

 

Cruise fare £180

Free at Sea £149

Taxes etc £1,136

 

The fact that NCL are still trading suggests that they charge more than £15 a day per person for their cruises. 🙂 

[insidecabin]

Yes they are the taxes I was referring to.

Still makes no sense for either of you.

Unless the TA and/or NCL will cough up their calculations it is hard to tell what they have done.

 

 

There have been time in the past where once you factored in sensible(not the retail) pricing for the drink and dining packages  the cruise portion of the fare was tiny 

eg  2015, 10n Spirit, £50pppd inc the beverage package and the old unlimited dining package that allowed speciality lunch and dinner every day(that was also available solo).

not seen one that good for quite a while now.

Edited September 15, 2019 by insidecabin

[Casino Comp Chick]

On 9/13/2019 at 4:20 PM, KeithJenner said:

By my logic, pro-Rata means pro-Rata.

 

Simple as that.

 

You were asking the wrong question in all your correspondence to NCL. 

 

The non commissionable fare & port fees/government taxes (&insurance if applicable) are removed and the balance is prorated, on the US site that figure is $340 & $188. I would ask if any free at sea service charges were removed also, 

Your question should be what is the NCF in GBP and then you will see if the figure they gave you is correct. 

 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Casino Comp Chick

[KeithJenner]

19 minutes ago, Casino Comp Chick said:

 

You were asking the wrong question in all your correspondence to NCL. 

 

The non commissionable fare & port fees/government taxes (&insurance if applicable) are removed and the balance is prorated, on the US site that figure is $340 & $188. I would ask if any free at sea service charges were removed also, 

Your question should be what is the NCF in GBP and then you will see if the figure they gave you is correct. 

 

I would say that I am a customer and in my opinion my questions should not have to refer to specific terms like “non commissionable fare”.

 

As I have mentioned numerous times I have already removed the free at sea element when making my calculations. Port taxes were never included in my calculations as per my previous post.

 

My request to NCL is for them

to explain why my understanding is incorrect. I shouldn’t need to include terms that the average customer would not have even heard of before in order to get a response. If it is due to non commissionable fares then they have had a month now to just state that to me.

 

The fact that they have not even attempted to explain says a great deal to me.

 

However, thanks for the suggestion. If they fail to answer me again tomorrow then I will certainly ask the question you have suggested.

 

Finally, I would state that if I were to deduct the sterling equivalent of $340 from my fare as well as the free at sea which I have previously accounted for then NCLs calculation is still 6 times smaller than it should be, so it’s quite clear that  this doesn’t explain the difference.

[Casino Comp Chick]

2 minutes ago, KeithJenner said:

I would say that I am a customer and in my opinion my questions should not have to refer to specific terms like “non commissionable fare”.

 

As I have mentioned numerous times I have already removed the free at sea element when making my calculations. Port taxes were never included in my calculations as per my previous post.

 

My request to NCL is for them

to explain why my understanding is incorrect. I shouldn’t need to include terms that the average customer would not have even heard of before in order to get a response. If it is due to non commissionable fares then they have had a month now to just state that to me.

 

The fact that they have not even attempted to explain says a great deal to me.

 

However, thanks for the suggestion. If they fail to answer me again tomorrow then I will certainly ask the question you have suggested.

 

Finally, I would state that if I were to deduct the sterling equivalent of $340 from my fare as well as the free at sea which I have previously accounted for then NCLs calculation is still 6 times smaller than it should be, so it’s quite clear that  this doesn’t explain the difference.

 

I responded to your earlier posts before I read your follow up regarding free at sea and taxes. 

Good luck, I hope you get your adjustments or at least your answers.

[KeithJenner]

I think that there is a point which some people are missing.

 

It isn’t that the reduction which NCL is offering is a little bit out, and can be explained away by small adjustments like port fees.

 

By my calculation, after adjusting for free at sea, I believe that I should receive a reduction of £110 per person. I have received £15. For that to be correct, it would require 88% of my fare to be removed from the calculation. If that is in fact the case then it really shouldn’t be too difficult for NCL to explain that there are some deductions. As it is, they haven’t mentioned that anything at all is excluded from the pro-rata, and haven’t deducted anything from all the other passengers (except possibly one person).

 

I am fully aware that there are likely to be some factors which I am unaware of which makes my calculations not quite right. I’m 99% sure that theirs are significantly more incorrect though.

 

 

[KeithJenner]

2 minutes ago, Casino Comp Chick said:

 

I responded to your earlier posts before I read your follow up regarding free at sea and taxes. 

Good luck, I hope you get your adjustments or at least your answers.

Thanks. I know people are trying to assist, and my frustration with NCL is probably causing me to be a little snappy. Ido appreciate any input, and a quantification of NCF (which is something I am aware of but don’t know about in huge detail) is very helpful. It is something I will ask if required.

[room with a view]

10 hours ago, KeithJenner said:

Yes, room with a view is the person I was referring to earlier when I said that there was one person who didn't seem to have quite the right refund. The fact that their TA hasn't split out the cruise cost for them makes it difficult to say for sure, but their refund looks a bit light.

 

It is perhaps relevant that we are both from the UK, which does suggest that there may be some other element in our fare, as well as the free at sea payment, which is not just the cruise fare, and therefore not included in the reduction. However, if we were to take the cruise fares as we know them at the time we booked, based on the reduction they got, mine should be in the region of £90 rather than the £15 I have received.

When we originally phoned NCL the cruise price for a BA balcony was £2239pp add gratuities £2377 pp add free at sea £2526pp. I then booked a package through a TA so don't know how much NCL charged my TA.

I still think £147.50  (£295) total is low for a BA balcony. Working on a 1/12 means NCL charged my TA £1770 for a cruise that they were pricing at  £2526 - does not figure.

OK I know my maths are not brilliant but I can see that Keith's refund is wrong as ours is short, also the ports fees/ "free at sea" promotion have to be taken into consideration.

I'm now going to read all the posts since I joined the discussion.