Port Botany cruise terminal

[SinbadThePorter]

58 minutes ago, lyndarra said:

When they get elected to local councils, that's when.

 

Which councils are run by the Greens? The closest to it I'm aware of is Byron Shire, where they have 4 out of 9.

 

Also, councils do not manage national parks and state forests.

 

Anyway, here is the actual Greens position on bushfire risk management.

 

https://greens.org.au/nsw/policies/bushfire-risk-management

 

They have no problem with burn offs, so long as they are well thought out beforehand. Which is just as well seeing that some poorly thought out burn offs have been the source of major fires in the past.

 

By the way, compare that bushfire risk management plan to the non-plans of the parties that actually are in power, and you might see why we are in as big a mess as we are right now.

 

Until the recent disaster the main fire policy effort of the current NSW government was to cut funding to fire services.

Edited January 4, 2020 by SinbadThePorter

[gbenjo]

2 hours ago, SinbadThePorter said:

 

It's one thing to slag people off, it's another to tell lies while doing it. Especially about such a serious subject.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/nov/12/is-there-really-a-green-conspiracy-to-stop-bushfire-hazard-reduction

 

“These are very tired and very old conspiracy theories that get a run after most major fires,” says Prof Ross Bradstock, the director of the centre for environmental risk management of bushfires at the University of Wollongong, who has been researching bushfires for 40 years.

“They’ve been extensively dealt with in many inquiries.”

 

A former NSW fire and rescue commissioner, Greg Mullins, has written this week that the hotter and drier conditions, and the higher fire danger ratings, were preventing agencies from carrying out prescribed burning.

He said: “Blaming ‘greenies’ for stopping these important measures is a familiar, populist, but basically untrue claim.”

So if the claims about the greenies are  incorrect  and back burning does not help prevent the intensity of bush fires why does it keep getting raised. we should agree to disagree and simlpy say that perhaps the greens policy  "may" have contributed in some way to the bushfires.  I guess it is a bit like Rods claims of total obliteration  of Botany Bay if a terminal is built there, just one persons informed/ misinformed opinion. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, be it right or wrong,  but it would be nice to have those opinions  supported by honest unbiased data. I apologise if what I said about the Greens is incorrect but it is still what  believe. Your professor Bradstock may well  be correct in his findings, but who's to say he is not sympathetic  to the Greens and his finding reflect this..not saying  he  is just saying that's how opinions an be influenced.

[possum52]

28 minutes ago, SinbadThePorter said:

 

Which councils are run by the Greens? The closest to it I'm aware of is Byron Shire, where they have 4 out of 9.

 

Also, councils do not manage national parks and state forests.

 

Anyway, here is the actual Greens position on bushfire risk management.

 

https://greens.org.au/nsw/policies/bushfire-risk-management

 

They have no problem with burn offs, so long as they are well thought out beforehand. Which is just as well seeing that some poorly thought out burn offs have been the source of major fires in the past.

 

By the way, compare that bushfire risk management plan to the non-plans of the parties that actually are in power, and you might see why we are in as big a mess as we are right now.

 

Until the recent disaster the main fire policy effort of the current NSW government was to cut funding to fire services.

Ok, the Greens policy does say that but but look at No. 6 - Prescribed burning is only one method of fuel management and should be considered in the context of other available options and the management objectives of the land in question.

 

What are the other methods of fuel management. These are not covered in the Greens policy, they offer no solution to not doing prescribed burns.

 

The problem is these burns are not being done often enough. Also cattle grazing in the Victorian High Country has been banned which both contribute to the control of fuel loads. I have heard so many stories of farmers and property owners wanting permits to slash/mow land in front of their properties and being denied. The people who work and live in these very fire prone areas are pleading for the burns but their pleas are ignored. Now our beautiful country is burning.  

 

On a recent trip to the south west of Victoria, I commented to my father whom we were visiting that there was so much growth along the highway, why weren't the farmers slashing it, my father replied to get a permit, they have to deal with so much red tape it's not worth their time. Once a farmer could just do it as part of their normal routine but not now. 

 

Leigh 

[OzKiwiJJ]

Hazard reduction burning requires very specific weather conditions to be undertaken safely. One of the issues last year was that there were insufficient suitable days to do the hazard reduction burns.

 

Another issue, which I haven't seen mentioned anywhere, is the terrain where many of these fires started. Very rugged country with no roads. Plus some of the bush that burned this season was bush and that wouls normally be too damp to burn under normal conditions, but these aren't normal conditions.

 

It's very easy for us keyboard warriors to point the finger of blame at whoever we choose and  In hindsight  perhaps all the governments did too little too late, but that will not change the current situation. All we can do now is offer what aid we can in the form of donations to various organisations. There are some useful links in the "Fires around Sydney" thread on this forum for those who wish to contribute.

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by OzKiwiJJ

[possum52]

34 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Hazard reduction burning requires very specific weather conditions to be undertaken safely. One of the issues last year was that there were insufficient suitable days to do the hazard reduction burns.

 

Another issue, which I haven't seen mentioned anywhere, is the terrain where many of these fires started. Very rugged country with no roads. Plus some of the bush that burned this season was bush and that wouls normally be too damp to burn under normal conditions, but these aren't normal conditions.

 

It's very easy for us keyboard warriors to point the finger of blame at whoever we choose and  In hindsight  perhaps all the governments did too little too late, but that will not change the current situation. All we can do now is offer what aid we can in the form of donations to various organisations. There are some useful links in the "Fires around Sydney" thread on this forum for those who wish to contribute.

 

Yes you are correct,  some of the areas where there have been fires are very rugged and that makes it more difficult to do burns and yes the conditions do need to be just right. But for example in Victoria, I know of two instances where protesters disrupted planned burns in Gippsland - https://www.trfm.com.au/articles/planned-burns-halted/

The two areas are where there fires at the moment.

 

I do agree with you that all governments and probably local councils did too little too late. If all who can afford it make a donation, we can make a donation.

 

Leigh

Edited January 4, 2020 by possum52

[plettza]

1 hour ago, gbenjo said:

 I apologise if what I said about the Greens is incorrect but it is still what  believe..

 

 

Facts don't really care about you believe.  FACT: The Greens have never formed government in NSW or Victoria and certainly not Queensland.  Therefore, they've never been in a position to enact their policies whether or not they support hazard reduction measures.  FACT: The Greens support hazard reduction measures.

 

What evidence would need to believe these fires are not the doing of the Greens?

[plettza]

12 minutes ago, possum52 said:

Yes you are correct,  some of the areas where there have been fires are very rugged and that makes it more difficult to do burns and yes the conditions do need to be just right. But for example in Victoria, I know of two instances where protesters disrupted planned burns in Gippsland - https://www.trfm.com.au/articles/planned-burns-halted/

The two areas are where there fires at the moment.

 

 

Nice link but nowhere in that article does it say the Greens were protestors.

[possum52]

2 minutes ago, plettza said:

 

Nice link but nowhere in that article does it say the Greens were protestors.

And no where in my post that you quoted, did I mention that the protestors were Greens. I just commented that these protestors disrupted planned burns and these areas are now burning.

 

Leigh

[Aus Traveller]

I feel that some of the confusion regarding the policies of the Greens, lies in the similarity between the name of political party (the Greens) and people who could be described as "greenies" (no capital letter and not a political party). 

[plettza]

18 minutes ago, possum52 said:

And no where in my post that you quoted, did I mention that the protestors were Greens. I just commented that these protestors disrupted planned burns and these areas are now burning.

 

Leigh

True, but post #453 you cited Greens policies followed by post 455 which, to me, you were connecting the Greens to the protestors.  I apologise if that wasn't your intention.

 

The thing is, whilst my house hasn't burnt down, the road to where my family lives and where I lives has been closed on and off for the last few weeks and I'm over the blame being shovelled onto the Greens.  Their places are currently enveloped by two fires in the Shoalhaven.  My mum lives in Vincentia in the Shoalhaven and my brother at Erowal Bay.  Both towns haven't been affected by fire directly but the roads in and out of the place have been closed.  They've been on edge with out-of-control fires being only a few miles away.

Edited January 4, 2020 by plettza

[plettza]

15 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

I feel that some of the confusion regarding the policies of the Greens, lies in the similarity between the name of political party (the Greens) and people who could be described as "greenies" (no capital letter and not a political party). 

 

 

This is true, but it doesn't stop people like Barnaby Joyce and other politicians as well Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt, Gerard Henderson or some of the other media elements from confecting a connection between the two.

 

The fact is , the Liberal government have been reducing the Rural Fire Service's budget over the last few years which has hindered the RFS to fight these fires. 

 

https://www.farmonline.com.au/story/3602488/rural-fire-service-budget-cuts/

 

https://independentaustralia.net/article-display/gladys-berejiklian-slashes-fire-service-budgets-while-nsw-burns,13307

 

For people to wilfully ignore these cuts and blame the Greens is getting old.

Edited January 4, 2020 by plettza

[MicCanberra]

27 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

I feel that some of the confusion regarding the policies of the Greens, lies in the similarity between the name of political party (the Greens) and people who could be described as "greenies" (no capital letter and not a political party). 

Sounds just like how Cleaver Green got elected to the senate.😁

[possum52]

13 minutes ago, plettza said:

True, but post #453 you cited Greens policies followed by post 455 which, to me, you were connecting the Greens to the protestors.  I apologise if that wasn't your intention.

 

The thing is, whilst my house hasn't burnt down, the road to where my family lives and where I lives has been closed on and off for the last few weeks and I'm over the blame being shovelled onto the Greens.  Their places are currently enveloped by two fires in the Shoalhaven.  My mum lives in Vincentia in the Shoalhaven and my brother at Erowal Bay.  Both towns haven't been affected by fire directly but the roads in and out of the place have been closed.  They've been on edge with out-of-control fires being only a few miles away.

Thank you, it wasn't my intention. I am genuinely interested in if the Greens only want to do prescribed burns as one part of their fire management policy what else will they do - it is not mentioned in the policy - No.6 of their policy. In post 455 I mentioned the protesters in Gippsland to show that the conditions were suitable for burns at those times but were disrupted and those two areas are now burning.

 

I can understand how you are feeling and hope your mother's and brother's homes are safe. My husband was a volunteer firefighter for over thrity five years until recently had to give it up due to injury (and old age) . He has fought fires in Gippsland where there are fires now and is quite upset to see the towns he helped save under threat again. I'm sorry today I have taken more notice of the fires here in Victoria and haven;t kept up with those on the South Coast. Good luck to you all.

 

Leigh

 

 

[ilikeanswers]

The Greens have somehow become the punching bag of politics when in fact they are no worst than other political parties. So far they are the only ones who budget their policies, you have to give them credit for that. But the real issue is we have not adjusted policies and procedures for the new climate conditions. The reality is the weather patterns have changed yet everyone in power keeps acting like the weather patterns well go back to "normal". Even the farmers are calling for governments to start changing systems and policies to fit the new reality but it is like everyone who has that power is in complete denial and all they keep saying is "we have to hold out till the weather goes back to normal" 🤦🏽‍♀️. 

[plettza]

18 minutes ago, possum52 said:

I can understand how you are feeling and hope your mother's and brother's homes are safe. My husband was a volunteer firefighter for over thrity five years until recently had to give it up due to injury (and old age) . He has fought fires in Gippsland where there are fires now and is quite upset to see the towns he helped save under threat again. I'm sorry today I have taken more notice of the fires here in Victoria and haven;t kept up with those on the South Coast. Good luck to you all.

 

Leigh

 

 

 

Thank you.  I appreciate your concern and so far places like Vincentia are safe but they've had big winds.  My mum's house isn't entirely surrounded by bushland but she has bushland across the road which went up back in 2001 if I remember correctly.  Since the Saturday before Christmas Eve, the Princes Highway was closed on and off from South Nowra to Jervis Bay Road and pretty much closed south to Batemans Bay and farther south most of the time.  We weren't sure if we'd be able to get down to my old lady's place for Christmas on the 24th but we did with no issues.  However, without knowing it, I was lucky to be able to leave to come home to the Illawarra on New Year's eve day before the highway was closed again.

 

My brother lives on the water but the village is surrounded mostly by bushland so he'd get stuck but he has his boat on stand by.

 

I hope our friends in Victoria get through this as well.  My manager has a farm in Bairnsdale.  He should hopefully be back at work on Monday so I'll ask him how it was down there.  In any case, he may have issues getting back to the Illawarra for work in time.

 

 

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by plettza

[plettza]

2 minutes ago, ilikeanswers said:

The Greens have somehow become the punching bag of politics when in fact they are no worst than other political parties. So far they are the only ones who budget their policies, you have to give them credit for that. But the real issue is we have not adjusted policies and procedures for the new climate conditions. The reality is the weather patterns have changed yet everyone in power keeps acting like the weather patterns well go back to "normal". Even the farmers are calling for governments to start changing systems and policies to fit the new reality but it is like everyone who has that power is in complete denial and all they keep saying is "we have to hold out till the weather goes back to normal" 🤦🏽‍♀️. 

 

 

Exactly this.  

 

You know one thing that I've noticed this year?  No cicadas.  Very few flies also.  Lawns are almost completely brown.

 

But a couple of years ago, the wattle trees around here were blooming in the middle of the July.  The weather is becoming drier and summer is getting longer with a much shorter winter.

[possum52]

3 minutes ago, plettza said:

 

Thank you.  I appreciate your concern and so far places like Vincentia are safe but they've had big winds.  My mum's house isn't entirely surrounded by bushland but she has bushland across the road which went up back in 2001 if I remember correctly.  Since the Saturday before Christmas Eve, the Princes Highway was closed on and off from South Nowra to Jervis Bay Road and pretty much closed south to Batemans Bay and farther south most of the time.  We weren't sure if we'd be able to get down to my old lady's place for Christmas on the 24th but we did with no issues.  However, without knowing it, I was able to leave on New Year's eve before the road was closed again.

 

My brother lives on the water but the village is surrounded mostly by bushland so he'd get stuck but he has his boat on stand by.

 

I hope our friends in Victoria get through this as well.  My manager has a farm in Bairnsdale.  He should hopefully be back at work on Monday so I'll ask him how it was down there.  In any case, he may have issues getting back to the Illawarra for work in time.

 

 

 

I think your manager will have a long trip back to the Illawarra.  It certainly won't be up the Princess Highway! Do you know whereabouts in the Bairnsdale area the farm is? If it is north of Bairnsdale, he may be involved in the fires. This advice is for Bairnsdale and surrounding area -

This Advice message is being issued for Bairnsdale and surrounding communities as well as areas south of the Princes Hwy around Nicholson and Johnsonville, .

 

• The bushfire to the north of Bairnsdale  is not yet under control.
• The hot and windy weather on Saturday will result in significant fire movement from the north of Bairnsdale.
• There will be a wind change around lunch time on Saturday that will push the fire in a north-easterly direction in the afternoon.
• These areas are not expected to be directly impacted by the fire front.

There is currently no threat to you, but you should plan for what you will do when the situation changes. 

 

The map shows how close to Bairnsdale the fires are.

 

Leigh

 

[plettza]

I'm not sure exactly where.  I know he doesn't use the Princes Highway but before he left to go down, he said he goes via Canberra, Cooma and through Bombala.  He mentioned his dams on the property are registered with the CFA for water use.

 

But my goodness, looking at that map, I'd say I won't see him on Monday.  He left to go down just after Christmas Day/Boxing Day something like that.

[SinbadThePorter]

3 hours ago, gbenjo said:

So if the claims about the greenies are  incorrect  and back burning does not help prevent the intensity of bush fires why does it keep getting raised.

 

It keeps getting raised because people like Alan Jones and the Daily Telegraph have a political barrow to push. Which is to attack Greens and deflect blame from the side of politics that they support.

 

By the way, the Greens do not say that back burning does not help, they only say we should be careful when back burning to make sure we don't lose more than we save.

 

3 hours ago, gbenjo said:

we should agree to disagree and simlpy say that perhaps the greens policy  "may" have contributed in some way to the bushfires. 

 

Only if there is a factual basis to say that. There isn't. I'll base my opinion on the expertise of someone who's studied bushfires for 40 years or a former NSW Fire Commissioner before I'd reject it on the basis that they "might" be greenies. I certainly wouldn't base it on Daily Telegraph headlines.

 

What is a fact is that some people for a long time have been trying to warn the powers that be that firestorms were inevitable and we needed to plan for them. Those in power didn't want to listen, because the "wrong" kind of people were saying it.

 

I've been around long enough to have seen "greenies" cop a hiding for getting in the way of The Rocks being torn down to make way for concrete and glass towers. I saw them get done over for getting in the way of damming the Franklin River. So now we still have The Rocks and a wild Franklin River. So far, I'd say we've done pretty well out of "greenies".

Edited January 4, 2020 by SinbadThePorter

[The_Big_M]

13 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

I’m not sure they want to sail out of Botany Bay either the Bridge and Opera House are the draw cards.

 

Sure but just like Venice, Berlin and many other places, they'll still sail wherever. Where they tie up is just a convenience.

[plettza]

1 hour ago, SinbadThePorter said:

 

It keeps getting raised because people like Alan Jones and the Daily Telegraph have a political barrow to push. Which is to attack Greens and deflect blame from the side of politics that they support.

 

By the way, the Greens do not say that back burning does not help, they only say we should be careful when back burning to make sure we don't lose more than we save.

 

 

Only if there is a factual basis to say that. There isn't. I'll base my opinion on the expertise of someone who's studied bushfires for 40 years or a former NSW Fire Commissioner before I'd reject it on the basis that they "might" be greenies. I certainly wouldn't base it on Daily Telegraph headlines.

 

What is a fact is that some people for a long time have been trying to warn the powers that be that firestorms were inevitable and we needed to plan for them. Those in power didn't want to listen, because the "wrong" kind of people were saying it.

 

I've been around long enough to have seen "greenies" cop a hiding for getting in the way of The Rocks being torn down to make way for concrete and glass towers. I saw them get done over for getting in the way of damming the Franklin River. So now we still have The Rocks and a wild Franklin River. So far, I'd say we've done pretty well out of "greenies".

 

Well said.

 

 For a party that's actually had very, very little power, i.e. I've never seen a Greens Prime Minister, Premier or Chief Minister, they seem to be portrayed as the root of all evil.

[plettza]

26 minutes ago, The_Big_M said:

 

Sure but just like Venice, Berlin and many other places, they'll still sail wherever. Where they tie up is just a convenience.

 

One of our Carnival cruise directors told us she thinks Sydney Harbour and New York are the best ports to sail from simply because they're in the city harbour rather than a 20-odd something kilometre bus ride away.

[in rod we trust]

isn't this topic about proposed cruise ship terminal at botany bay..  .. 

 

[in rod we trust]

6 hours ago, plettza said:

 

Well said.

 

 For a party that's actually had very, very little power, i.e. I've never seen a Greens Prime Minister, Premier or Chief Minister, they seem to be portrayed as the root of all evil.

 

im not a greenie or a nimbysts as some might suggest.. im a angler , I love this country in all its beauty , I don't want to see it destroyed just for greed .. I don't want to see places  destroyed just for companies that are only interested in filling there pockets up  and don't give a rats on what they destroy to fill there pockets.. .. im just one of many people but speak for myself .. if we don't have people that want to save this beautiful country then all hope is lost...  I still remember the days the builder's union saved most historic buildings .. if it wasn't for the many few who stand up and fight we would have a concrete jungle like many overseas countries that are just no go zones and getto's … and as mentioned above post that has been saved … that's why im so against this port , epa  says dredging of botany bay will spread dangerous toxin's thru out botany bay.. its a know fact the dredging from the desal and port extension spoil washed up at some beaches in Sydney , when they dumped that spoil off the coast..  .. yarra bay and molli point is a awesome place that people enjoy it should not be destroyed just for a massive cruise terminal to be used for 3 months of the yr ..  …  its about time we save our country not bloody destroy it ..  use the money that would cost to build this useless terminal to the rfa to buy better trucks and manage the bush , give it to people in need of shelter , give it to the animal welfare league  , there is so much they can do with it other than build a useless terminal just for convenience for royal carribean..  ..  there is a port down eden why if the cruise industry really care send one of its ships down there to help out residents  , bring food and water and help out... yeah fat chance of that happening all they give a rats about is making money ..

Edited January 4, 2020 by in rod we trust

[By The Bay]

10 hours ago, plettza said:

 

 

This is true, but it doesn't stop people like Barnaby Joyce and other politicians as well Alan Jones, Andrew Bolt, Gerard Henderson or some of the other media elements from confecting a connection between the two.

 

The fact is , the Liberal government have been reducing the Rural Fire Service's budget over the last few years which has hindered the RFS to fight these fires. 

 

https://www.farmonline.com.au/story/3602488/rural-fire-service-budget-cuts/

 

https://independentaustralia.net/article-display/gladys-berejiklian-slashes-fire-service-budgets-while-nsw-burns,13307

 

For people to wilfully ignore these cuts and blame the Greens is getting old.

The ABC did a fact check on Fire fighting funding, see: Doesn't Stack Up.