Plastic Bottles Reusable

[arzz]

The only water bottles that we were aware of delivered to the suites were the new contentious ones.

 

We, too, are upset about the use of too much plastic but we also wish to have clean, safe water to drink in our suite.  There must be a way.  

[alwaysonaship]

When I inquired about the plastic bottles with guest relations, the same day we found sealed bottled water, the big ones in our cabin.  There are too many unknown issues with these plastic things to drink the water in my opinion. If drinking out of reused plastic bottles is not considered safe, then wouldn’t this be the same case? Also still don’t know the process for cleaning. 

[cece50]

There is much info on the Nordaq.com website.  I did find out our gym in Florida uses a similar system and we have a touch less filling station at our disposal.  I use it often, but assumed it was tap water....who knew?  I like the idea of the rubber sealing cap that they show on website for the carafes in the cabin.  The website also mentions a washing/sanitation system for all their glass carafes, which I hope Seabourn has on board.  Still lots of questions that Seaboard should address.  

Edited September 30, 2019 by cece50

[Catlover54]

On 9/29/2019 at 10:06 AM, cruiseej said:

". . . .

 (@Catlover54, there's been lots written about the pitfalls of reusing single-use plastic bottles due to micro-cracks which harbor harmful bacteria, and because once used, they can leach a carcinogenic chemical called DEHP, so you may want to re-think your strategy. 😉 )"

 

I will not be rethinking my strategy until the American Cancer Society is on board with this unproven theory.

So far, the "lots written" is conjecture, as are so many fear-mongering things on the internet. Of course there is always room for more research.

 

 

http://www.cancer.org/latest-news/rumors-and-myths-brief-plastic-water-bottle-email.html

I am more worried about the very real risk of bacteria growing in the room temp water pitchers and/or borderline cleaning efforts by busy international staff not under my control.

 

 

On 9/29/2019 at 10:06 AM, cruiseej said:

 

 

 

 

On 9/29/2019 at 10:06 AM, cruiseej said:

 

 

[Joc123]

We are currently on Ovation and using the reusable water bottles.

The bottles are not sealed, only have a screw top but the taste is good. We don’t have a problem with them except they are heavy to carry on tour. This means we only take 1 so DH and I have to share, probably not ideal but ok.

Also the opening is wide so if you need a drink while travelling on the bus be prepared to have the water end up down the front of you.

[cruiseej]

On 9/30/2019 at 6:37 AM, alwaysonaship said:

There are too many unknown issues with these plastic things to drink the water in my opinion. If drinking out of reused plastic bottles is not considered safe, then wouldn’t this be the same case? Also still don’t know the process for cleaning. 

 

No, these bottled are made of a hard plastic that's designed to be cleaned at high temperatures hundreds of times. BPA-free water bottles are nothing new; they've been in use for many years. It's a very different type of plastic than is used in the single-use water bottles. 

 

There's not much posted on the Nordaq website about their cleaning, so I'm not sure if they actually provide the cleaning equipment. But if you look at their competitor, Vero, the bottles are designed to be cleaned by high-temperature dishwashers found on cruise ships ands restaurant kitchens. I don't know if they have specific machines just for cleaning the water bottles, or if they can go through existing cleaning equipment. But surely you wouldn't have nearly every cruise line in the world, as well as thousands of hotels and restaurants, switching to these filtered water/reusable bottle systems if they weren't proven to be safe; no one would even pass health inspections if the bottles weren't cleaned properly.

 

Now, can there be human error in cleaning? Sure! Have you ever sent back a dirty plate or utensil in a restaurant? But if we trust a cruise ship to have cleaned a wine glass or water glass properly, why is there so much doubt that they are equally capable of cleaning water bottles specifically designed for cleaning and reuse?

 

I don't think this is going to come down to a health issue. I think the question will be whether the water tastes good -- a subjective thing reasonable people will naturally disagree about -- and whether the bottles are convenient enough. (People have been talking about whether they're too big/heavy to take on excursions, but I'm more interested in whether there's a way to get them into the refrigerator, because I like my water cold!)

[sfvoyage]

7 hours ago, cruiseej said:

 

No, these bottled are made of a hard plastic that's designed to be cleaned at high temperatures hundreds of times. BPA-free water bottles are nothing new; they've been in use for many years. It's a very different type of plastic than is used in the single-use water bottles. 

 

There's not much posted on the Nordaq website about their cleaning, so I'm not sure if they actually provide the cleaning equipment. But if you look at their competitor, Vero, the bottles are designed to be cleaned by high-temperature dishwashers found on cruise ships ands restaurant kitchens. I don't know if they have specific machines just for cleaning the water bottles, or if they can go through existing cleaning equipment. But surely you wouldn't have nearly every cruise line in the world, as well as thousands of hotels and restaurants, switching to these filtered water/reusable bottle systems if they weren't proven to be safe; no one would even pass health inspections if the bottles weren't cleaned properly.

 

Now, can there be human error in cleaning? Sure! Have you ever sent back a dirty plate or utensil in a restaurant? But if we trust a cruise ship to have cleaned a wine glass or water glass properly, why is there so much doubt that they are equally capable of cleaning water bottles specifically designed for cleaning and reuse?

 

I don't think this is going to come down to a health issue. I think the question will be whether the water tastes good -- a subjective thing reasonable people will naturally disagree about -- and whether the bottles are convenient enough...

 

Thank you for your logic and reasoning.  I don't think businesses are in the business of making their customers sick, so I am not concerned about the new drinking water measures.  Even single-use plastic water bottles aren't necessarily a bacterial cauldron - my husband and I drink out of the same bottle every day at the gym, rinsing it off daily, and discarding it after a few weeks.

 

My concern lies mostly with guests who don't wash, let alone sanitize, their hands upon entering a restaurant - I regularly witness people using the toilets and leaving without washing their hands before walking right into the restaurants  - thereby contaminating the common serving utensils at the buffet.  Worse are the ones who pick up the food with their fingers; I've even seen guests who pick up some food and then change their mind and put the food back on the buffet.

Edited October 2, 2019 by sfvoyage

[cruiseej]

15 hours ago, sfvoyage said:

My concern lies mostly with guests who don't wash, let alone sanitize, their hands upon entering a restaurant…

 

Well, that's a reasonable concern with the buffets, but I'd say it's a different problem for another thread… 

[cece50]

I expect that the water system will be fine....it's just the reusable plastic bottles used by everyone.....yes, we trust they will be clean as a wine glass or plate, but glass & porcelain are not plastic....no way to tell if they were washed or not.   I will not use the reusables, but hopefully will be allowed to fill my own travel bottle with water from a dispenser or from the restaurants....if that is not an option, we will be buying water port side.  Also, our next cruise is Sydney to Auckland.....I hear New Zealand has some of best water on the planet.....I'll be filling up my travel bottle as we tour.  We like our simple "evasolo" travel bottles....they are lightweight, BPA free, with various colored wrist bands.  

 

 In my humble opinion......It's just a matter of time, with so many people using the same plastic water bottles, that a problem will occur.  

Edited October 3, 2019 by cece50

[cruiseej]

Every major cruise line has eliminated, or is in the process of eliminating, single-use plastic bottles. Perhaps I'm being naive about this, but I find it impossible to think that these large multi-national billion-dollar companies are implementing systems they haven't thoroughly tested, and that they would put their reputations at risk for health code violations and, worse, illnesses to passengers and crew, on unproven systems. People are questioning how we know whether water bottle cap has been cleaned, and I don't know the answer, but I do believe the people running these cruise lines absolutely do know the answer.

 

It's as if Seabourn had always served meals on paper plates, and not announced they were switching to reusable, washable porcelain -- and customers said "How do we know they are getting these new plates clean? How do we know the paint on them doesn't contain dangerous chemicals that will seep into our food? Nope, I'm going to bring my own paper plates and use them on my cruises." I say that somewhat tongue-in-cheek, of course, and I'm not firing insults at fellow cruisers who have concerns. I do think it would be smart of Seabourn to provide information -- on ships and on their website -- of the how's and why's of the water systems they're employing, to build customer-confidence that they have done their due diligence, they have done their testing, and to assure customers that drinking from water bottle is as safe to use as picking up a wine glass at the dinner table. 

[SLSD]

33 minutes ago, cruiseej said:

Every major cruise line has eliminated, or is in the process of eliminating, single-use plastic bottles. Perhaps I'm being naive about this, but I find it impossible to think that these large multi-national billion-dollar companies are implementing systems they haven't thoroughly tested, and that they would put their reputations at risk for health code violations and, worse, illnesses to passengers and crew, on unproven systems. People are questioning how we know whether water bottle cap has been cleaned, and I don't know the answer, but I do believe the people running these cruise lines absolutely do know the answer.

 

It's as if Seabourn had always served meals on paper plates, and not announced they were switching to reusable, washable porcelain -- and customers said "How do we know they are getting these new plates clean? How do we know the paint on them doesn't contain dangerous chemicals that will seep into our food? Nope, I'm going to bring my own paper plates and use them on my cruises." I say that somewhat tongue-in-cheek, of course, and I'm not firing insults at fellow cruisers who have concerns. I do think it would be smart of Seabourn to provide information -- on ships and on their website -- of the how's and why's of the water systems they're employing, to build customer-confidence that they have done their due diligence, they have done their testing, and to assure customers that drinking from water bottle is as safe to use as picking up a wine glass at the dinner table. 

You make some good points here cruiseej, but isn't one of the issues the repeated washing of plastic bottles and concern about that?  I am not disagreeing with you, but just stating that the washing of glass and porcelain is a different matter for many.  I do wish that Seabourn would cover this either on their website, on the ship in writing or both. 

[raphael360]

I've been putting my morning protein shakes into the same Fuji "plastic water bottle" for almost a year now.  I wash it out every night, make my protein shake and refrig till morning.  (Putting milk/protein shakes in this same plastic water bottle for over 300 days). I'm feeling great AND my wife says my male performance in the, you know where, is better than ever. 

 

Yeah micro cracks!!!

[cece50]

Found this recent article:   Interesting that these scientists feel even the good ridged PABA free plastics give pause, especially after repeated high temp heating.  Again, I think the water system onboard will be fine, it’s the mass distribution that concerns me.  As the article said,  not to stress over what type of good reusable bottle to use,  just use what is comfortable for you.  I like that idea, but will be using my own....not the ones Seabourn will be reusing.  Oh my....Plastic has made our lives so much easier, but if I was raising children these days, I would definitely go the old fashioned glass & stainless steel route as our parents & grandparents did.  

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/plastic-metal-or-glass-whats-the-best-material-for-a-reusable-water-bottle/2019/09/25/5edcbe6c-d957-11e9-bfb1-849887369476_story.html

Edited October 5, 2019 by cece50

[cruiseej]

12 hours ago, SLSD said:

You make some good points here cruiseej, but isn't one of the issues the repeated washing of plastic bottles and concern about that?  I am not disagreeing with you, but just stating that the washing of glass and porcelain is a different matter for many.  I do wish that Seabourn would cover this either on their website, on the ship in writing or both. 

 

Yes, that is concern people are expressing -- and I am questioning why. These bottles are designed to be washed in high temperature commercial washers, repeatedly, over the long term. I understand that there are a wide variety of things we lump together as "plastic", but there is science and testing behind what is being produced for this purpose. So why is "the washing of glass and porcelain a different matter"? Only because we're used to it and don't think of it as harmful, right? (At least we're not European royalty of a couple centuries ago, who died from using pewter plates that were high in lead content; they blamed certain foods, not the plates!)

[alwaysonaship]

My comment is still MADE IN CHINA on the bottles, and that adds to the discomfort for us for long term usage.

[cece50]

The Nordaq  filtration system sounds fine with me.  I read that the best restaurants in NYC use it.....not sure why....NYC has the best tap water, but I get the concerns from old pipes etc.  However, the system as I understand,  was designed to be used with glass carafes to be filled on site and then poured into guests glasses.  No plastic.....now the cruise industry has come up with providing guests with reusable plastic.  For me thats the disconnect.  I think the issue is that for convenience  guests need to have a lightweight bottled water as they leave the ship...I get that too.  That will be a personal choice to use them, but I hope in the cabins they use the Nordaq system in the way it was designed.....to be distributed in glass carafes, properly cleaned and sealed on board.  Why am I so into this water issue...drinking water has always been a topic in our circles as my husband has been in the water industry ( tap water) for his entire career, here in the US and internationally.   We take our water seriously.  

Edited October 5, 2019 by cece50

[SLSD]

3 hours ago, cruiseej said:

 

Yes, that is concern people are expressing -- and I am questioning why. These bottles are designed to be washed in high temperature commercial washers, repeatedly, over the long term. I understand that there are a wide variety of things we lump together as "plastic", but there is science and testing behind what is being produced for this purpose. So why is "the washing of glass and porcelain a different matter"? Only because we're used to it and don't think of it as harmful, right? (At least we're not European royalty of a couple centuries ago, who died from using pewter plates that were high in lead content; they blamed certain foods, not the plates!)

You continue to make valid points, but I can think of a few more.  The high quality plastic bottles some of us have at home are probably not used every single day---and are also used by one or maybe two family members--used to sharing close quarters and whatever germs they come into contact with.  The plastic bottles on a ship would have to be real workhorses--used day in and day out over months and months at a time---and by varied unrelated people--some with illnesses and some not.  Do we know the number of washings each bottle is rated for?  (Glass and porcelain do not have a use by date).  No plastic is as durable as glass and porcelain.  And, as someone points out, the bottles are made in China.  China is notorious for poor safety controls.  That alone would give me some pause.  I haven't personally seen these bottles yet, but have read that they have screw on tops and wide mouths.  The wide mouth is not an issue, but the screw on top could be.  How are the lids washed?  What kind of material are they made from?  I assume a screw on lid has ridges---not easy to get clean no matter the method.  Until we see specifications, materials, cleaning methods etc, many people will not feel secure drinking from these bottles.  I say this as someone who works really hard NOT to get sick on a cruise.  (Disclaimer, I DID get sick on our last cruise, but it was not bacterial or viral.) I think most people see these bottles as a weak link in the protection of the health of passengers while on the ship.  

Edited October 5, 2019 by SLSD

[cruiseej]

2 hours ago, cece50 said:

However, the system as I understand,  was designed to be used with glass carafes to be filled on site and then poured into guests glasses.  No plastic.....now the cruise industry has come up with providing guests with reusable plastic.  For me thats the disconnect. 

 

Well, I think that's a misperception. The cruise industry didn't come up with the idea of plastic bottles. Nordaq shows them as one of their core products on their website:

Similarly, competitor Vero (which Seabourn and Oceania are using) on their website talks about the system being designed around reusable bottles…

 

 

I do understand passengers wanting complete information and assurance that the system is safe. I just think when you take a step back, there's no way these companies could be implementing systems like this if they weren't rock-solid convinced that they are hygienic and safe. (That doesn't assure that people will like the taste, but that's a different matter.)

 

I do think the size/weight issue for shore excursions is a valid one. I haven't yet held one of these bottles, but I understand that a larger circumference and heavier weight will make them less desirable for some people. 

 

 

[sfvoyage]

Seabourn, and other cruise lines or restaurants, has been using plastic serving ware for decades for outdoor use.  At pool bar and around the pool, drinks are served in rigid plastic cups and glasses.

[cruiseej]

35 minutes ago, SLSD said:

I think most people see these bottles as a weak link in the protection of the health of passengers while on the ship.  

 

And you think Seabourn (and the entire cruise industry) has decided it's acceptable and worthwhile to trade off passenger health and safety in order to save some money not hauling plastic water bottles around the world and to fill a marketing checkbox for sustainability?

 

I believe the cruise line executives know that if passengers on their ships get sick from germs transmitted on reusable water bottles, their reputation will collapse and they would lose millions or billions of dollars. 

[SLSD]

1 hour ago, cruiseej said:

 

And you think Seabourn (and the entire cruise industry) has decided it's acceptable and worthwhile to trade off passenger health and safety in order to save some money not hauling plastic water bottles around the world and to fill a marketing checkbox for sustainability?

 

I believe the cruise line executives know that if passengers on their ships get sick from germs transmitted on reusable water bottles, their reputation will collapse and they would lose millions or billions of dollars. 

I have confidence that the cruise line industry is doing their best to prevent illness on board.  But, at the same time, even they must recognize that these particular plastic reusable water bottles don't have a long track record in the cruise industry.  We all know about bacteria and micro fissures.  I think most of us are of a age that we feel it necessary to err on the side of caution when it comes to our health.  I'm  not arguing with you at all--just pointing out that there are concerns.  Some transparency about sterilization of the bottles and length of use for each individual bottle might allay some concerns.  

[alwaysonaship]

1 hour ago, sfvoyage said:

Seabourn, and other cruise lines or restaurants, has been using plastic serving ware for decades for outdoor use.  At pool bar and around the pool, drinks are served in rigid plastic cups and glasses.

Yes that is correct, but we are not drinking out of those after they have been “cleaned” Also, just because a company says their products are safe doesn’t mean they are. IMHO the companies have one vested interested. It isn’t saving the environment, it is corporate profits. 

[sfvoyage]

Just now, alwaysonaship said:

Yes that is correct, but we are not drinking out of those after they have been “cleaned” ..

 

What do you mean by that?  Of course we are drinking out of them after they are cleaned in the dishwashers.  They are not single use cups or glasses.  They are rigid plastic cups and glasses meant to be washed and reused.  ????

[alwaysonaship]

2 minutes ago, sfvoyage said:

 

What do you mean by that?  Of course we are drinking out of them after they are cleaned in the dishwashers.  They are not single use cups or glasses.  They are rigid plastic cups and glasses meant to be washed and reused.  ????

The post was about plastic utensils and cups around a pool, and how do you know for sure they are safe. I believe business is looking at the bottom line. I like Seabourn, just the lack of information about these plastic bottles is bothersome

Edited October 5, 2019 by alwaysonaship

[sfvoyage]

39 minutes ago, alwaysonaship said:

The post was about plastic utensils and cups around a pool, and how do you know for sure they are safe. I believe business is looking at the bottom line. I like Seabourn, just the lack of information about these plastic bottles is bothersome

 

And my point - which you obviously missed - was that rigid plastic utensils have been used and reused - you had erroneously said that "we are not drinking out of those after they have been 'cleaned'” - on ships and on land for many, many years, mostly in outdoor settings.  On Seabourn, rigid plastic cups and glasses are used at the pool and pool bars, and they are washed in dishwashers just like other serving ware.  After many years, nobody has complained about contamination and bacteria associated with those rigid plastic ware.  And yet, with this new rigid plastic product rollout, people on this thread are voicing their concern about this new rigid plastic, whereas we've been living and drinking out of rigid plastic for decades. 

 

I guess one can argue that the "new" plastic is worse than the "old" plastic.  But what's the basis and evidence in that?  I don't think scientists are generally trained to devise new materials that are worse than their predecessors, nor are businesses in consumer products usually rewarded by rolling out products that harm people (I am, of course, not talking about businesses such as cigarette, weapons, etc.).

 

As we all know, this is a very small niche online community - one in which Seabourn doesn't even bother to have any visible presence - and we tend to talk in circles at times.  I'd be interested to know what the guests on board are saying about this new product and measure and if a lot of people are complaining.  Often times, "hot" issues on this board are non-issues on board.  I'll report back when I next board a Seabourn ship in December.  Meanwhile, any real life data points from passengers currently on board would be interesting, in terms of both passengers feedback and management response.

 

 

Edited October 5, 2019 by sfvoyage