Dog bite on board

[Curt1591]

On 10/1/2019 at 2:41 AM, JennyB1977 said:

Extend the back of one hand to their (the dog's) nose so they can sniff you from about 6" away.

Extending one's hand, first off, isn't a good idea. 

It's better to approach with one's side exposed, then allow the dog to sniff one's leg or foot. After the dog seems comfortable / friendly, then one can extend the hand.

And, a wagging tail only expresses excitement. It doesn't necessarily mean the dog is happy.

[calliopecruiser]

21 hours ago, GTO-Girl said:

There is a HUGE difference in bringing your “service” dog onboard to perform a working service for you and those who bring their dressed up “FiFi’s” under false pretenses because they didn’t want to leave them at home!!!

 

Oh, Lordy, yes - but expecting them to be licensed isn't realistic was all I was trying to point out.  Unfortunately, laws don't permit places to ask or ask for proof that a person is in any way disabled and requires a service dog. 

[Hlitner]

On 9/30/2019 at 6:33 PM, clo said:

More and more businesses including cruise lines are no longer allowing ESAs, just real service animals.

The problem is without any International Standard or licensing, anyone can claim their dog is a Service Animal.  In the USA the lack of a decent law makes it very easy for folks to abuse the system and the hands of the cruise lines are mostly tied when it comes to dealing with potential abusers.  We have seen the lady who wheels he “ tan service dog” around ships in a baby carriage.  We met her sister on a RCI cruise who told us “my sister is nuts” and takes the dog everywhere.  And no...it is not a service dog although the owner insists it is if anyone asks.

 

Hank

[Curt1591]

2 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

“my sister is nuts” and takes the dog everywhere.  And no...it is not a service dog although the owner insists it is if anyone asks.

 

“Comfort animals” are the latest fad!

[ilikeanswers]

2 hours ago, Curt1591 said:

 

“Comfort animals” are the latest fad!

 

Any cruise lines started cashing in on the fad? They say the pet industry is a billion dollar market and I could envision cruise ships with doggy daycares and pet pampering services😂.

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

the hands of the cruise lines are mostly tied when it comes to dealing with potential abusers.

As I've said before on this topic, this is not quite accurate.  While businesses in the US can only deny "service animals" if they are not well behaved, or are in places they shouldn't be (shopping cart, for instance), they are reluctant to enforce even this for fear of having to defend themselves in a frivolous suit, but they do have remedy against some abusers.  Similarly, and to a larger extent, foreign flag cruise ships are specifically exempt from ADA requirements (SCOTUS in Spector v. NCL) if the requirement applies to the ship's "internal policies and procedures".  From this ruling, the cruise lines, most effectively through CLIA, could enact a "Canine Code of Conduct", which could be more restrictive than the DOJ allows under ADA, and enforce it, which would remove most of the "Fi-Fi's", as these tend to be generally ill mannered animals anyway.  Again, however, the cruise lines, while they don't have to worry about legal costs (they have the lawyers on staff or retainer anyway), they don't want the potential bad PR caused by someone going to a tabloid and claiming they were discriminated against because of their "genuine service animal".  Their hands are not tied, they are consciously clasped together.

[ducklite]

On 10/1/2019 at 10:31 PM, Rawswife said:

No, you (general) cannot ask for documentation or paperwork. Nor can a person ask what condition you have to warrant a service animal. 

 

You CAN ask what service the animal provides. Ex: seeing eye dog, dog who helps a person using a wheelchair, helps someone with epilepsy or seizures. 

 

Emotional support or help with anxiety (even PTSD) is not a service and is therefore, not covered by the ADA. 

 

No proper service dog would ever be unsocialized, snappy, aggressive or bite without provocation. A proper service dog would be 'bullet-proof'. 

In some cases a dog can be a service dog for someone with PTSD (or Autism, or other behavioral related disasbilities)--IF they are trained to perform a task related to that disability such as calling 911 or laying on a person who is exhibiting self destructive behaviors, stimming, etc.  

[ducklite]

On 9/30/2019 at 3:33 PM, rugerdog said:

Has anyone heard of a passenger being bitten by a dog whilst on board a cruise?  I'm wondering how that should be handled, and who would be "in charge" of reporting it, and to whom.  I know there are specific dog bite laws in the US on land, but who handles it at sea?  

 

I've heard lots of opinions and guesses, but haven't been able to determine any facts.

 

Because of the lack of suitable authority, I'd just alert the media wolves.  Cruise lines don't like negative publicity, and would be forced to react quickly to your claims.  Start with CNN--they seem to love negative stories about cruise lines lately.

[Curt1591]

7 hours ago, ilikeanswers said:

 

Any cruise lines started cashing in on the fad? They say the pet industry is a billion dollar market and I could envision cruise ships with doggy daycares and pet pampering services😂.

It's comfort for the owner, not the pet. 

Comfort Animals

[Hlitner]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

As I've said before on this topic, this is not quite accurate.  While businesses in the US can only deny "service animals" if they are not well behaved, or are in places they shouldn't be (shopping cart, for instance), they are reluctant to enforce even this for fear of having to defend themselves in a frivolous suit, but they do have remedy against some abusers.  Similarly, and to a larger extent, foreign flag cruise ships are specifically exempt from ADA requirements (SCOTUS in Spector v. NCL) if the requirement applies to the ship's "internal policies and procedures".  From this ruling, the cruise lines, most effectively through CLIA, could enact a "Canine Code of Conduct", which could be more restrictive than the DOJ allows under ADA, and enforce it, which would remove most of the "Fi-Fi's", as these tend to be generally ill mannered animals anyway.  Again, however, the cruise lines, while they don't have to worry about legal costs (they have the lawyers on staff or retainer anyway), they don't want the potential bad PR caused by someone going to a tabloid and claiming they were discriminated against because of their "genuine service animal".  Their hands are not tied, they are consciously clasped together.

Ouch!  You might be even more cynical then me :). 

 

Hank

[GUT2407]

On 10/5/2019 at 12:16 AM, chengkp75 said:

As I've said before on this topic, this is not quite accurate.  While businesses in the US can only deny "service animals" if they are not well behaved, or are in places they shouldn't be (shopping cart, for instance), they are reluctant to enforce even this for fear of having to defend themselves in a frivolous suit, but they do have remedy against some abusers.  Similarly, and to a larger extent, foreign flag cruise ships are specifically exempt from ADA requirements (SCOTUS in Spector v. NCL) if the requirement applies to the ship's "internal policies and procedures".  From this ruling, the cruise lines, most effectively through CLIA, could enact a "Canine Code of Conduct", which could be more restrictive than the DOJ allows under ADA, and enforce it, which would remove most of the "Fi-Fi's", as these tend to be generally ill mannered animals anyway.  Again, however, the cruise lines, while they don't have to worry about legal costs (they have the lawyers on staff or retainer anyway), they don't want the potential bad PR caused by someone going to a tabloid and claiming they were discriminated against because of their "genuine service animal".  Their hands are not tied, they are consciously clasped together.

In house lawyers or not, they do have to worry about legal costs.

 

1. more law suits = more lawyers

2. The lawyers have other work too ie contracts etc

3. There is the cost of staff having to attend Court dates, especially if they go to hearing

4. If the lose there are damages and costs orders

5. In many cases there are all sorts of filing fees, and costs of issuing subpoenas and obtaining expert reports.

 

Litigation is costly (thank goodness).

[Nebr.cruiser]

On 10/1/2019 at 8:43 AM, denmarks said:

I was on Princess but I am sure the group goes on many cruises.

We had a cruise--I think it was Princess-- with a similar number of blind persons with their seeing eye dogs.  It was wonderful to see how professional the service dogs were and how well behaved.  Such a temptation to pet them, but I know not to when they are working.

 

We have also been on cruises with dogs that were obviously just pets, but of course somehow were called service dogs.

[klfrodo]

Well, since there are no laws or regulations on the high seas, I guess if Fifi bites you, you can beat the little POS and there shouldn’t be any ramifications on you.

Not the optimal answer or response, but if the animal or the owner has no remorse, the cruise line takes no action,,, so be it.

[Curt1591]

2 minutes ago, klfrodo said:

Well, since there are no laws or regulations on the high seas, I guess if Fifi bites you, you can beat the little POS and there shouldn’t be any ramifications on you.

Not the optimal answer or response, but if the animal or the owner has no remorse, the cruise line takes no action,,, so be it.

I would prefer a drop kick over the rail, .... oops! 🐶

Edited October 6, 2019 by Curt1591

[NLH Arizona]

On 9/30/2019 at 3:33 PM, clo said:

More and more businesses including cruise lines are no longer allowing ESAs, just real service animals.

The law is that emotional support animals are not allowed in any public building, but unfortunately most business either don't know the law or are afraid of being sued by these folks who threaten them at the drop of a hat.

[NLH Arizona]

On 10/1/2019 at 7:31 PM, Rawswife said:

No, you (general) cannot ask for documentation or paperwork. Nor can a person ask what condition you have to warrant a service animal. 

 

You CAN ask what service the animal provides. Ex: seeing eye dog, dog who helps a person using a wheelchair, helps someone with epilepsy or seizures. 

 

Emotional support or help with anxiety (even PTSD) is not a service and is therefore, not covered by the ADA. 

 

No proper service dog would ever be unsocialized, snappy, aggressive or bite without provocation. A proper service dog would be 'bullet-proof'. 

PTSD is covered by the ADA.

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

[crazyank]

On 10/6/2019 at 4:35 AM, Curt1591 said:

I would prefer a drop kick over the rail, .... oops! 🐶

Apparently someone did just that or something similar on one of our cruises several years ago.  Nasty little dog that was constantly yapping and snapping at people turned up missing and wasn't found by the end of the cruise despite numerous announcements to be on the lookout for the missing dog.

[NLH Arizona]

6 hours ago, crazyank said:

Apparently someone did just that or something similar on one of our cruises several years ago.  Nasty little dog that was constantly yapping and snapping at people turned up missing and wasn't found by the end of the cruise despite numerous announcements to be on the lookout for the missing dog.

That is so sad.  It is not the dog's fault that they don't behave, it is the owners.  AND it is the cruise line for allowing these dogs.  Even a true service dog can be kicked out of an establishment for barking and snapping.

[klfrodo]

2 hours ago, NLH Arizona said:

That is so sad.  It is not the dog's fault that they don't behave, it is the owners.  AND it is the cruise line for allowing these dogs.  Even a true service dog can be kicked out of an establishment for barking and snapping.

True. However, if the cruiseline won't handle the situation or the owner won't handle the situation, Fifi is much much lower on the pecking order of life than one of my friends or loved ones.

[dkjretired]

22 hours ago, NLH Arizona said:

PTSD is covered by the ADA.

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

 

Yes and No, the dog has to provide a specific service to the person with PTSD.  The relevant line from the link is, "Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."  Unfortunately, many do not know this.   We had a story about this in our local paper a couple of years ago involving a restaurant.  The ironic thing was the that the person who had the dog and the reporter did not know what the law was.  The only one who did was the restaurant owner and he got blasted in the newspaper for being right. 

Edited October 8, 2019 by dkjretired

[NLH Arizona]

1 hour ago, dkjretired said:

 

Yes and No, the dog has to provide a specific service to the person with PTSD.  The relevant line from the link is, "Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."  Unfortunately, many do not know this.   We had a story about this in our local paper a couple of years ago involving a restaurant.  The ironic thing was the that the person who had the dog and the reporter did not know what the law was.  The only one who did was the restaurant owner and he got blasted in the newspaper for being right. 

PTSD is covered by the ADA and they are not emotional support animals.  Per the ADA:  Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets.  

 

Don't understand where you think I was including emotional support animals, as being included.

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, dkjretired said:

Yes and No, the dog has to provide a specific service to the person with PTSD.  The relevant line from the link is, "Dogs whose sole function is to provide comfort or emotional support do not qualify as service animals under the ADA."

 

7 hours ago, NLH Arizona said:

PTSD is covered by the ADA and they are not emotional support animals.  Per the ADA:  Service animals are defined as dogs that are individually trained to do work or perform tasks for people with disabilities. Examples of such work or tasks include guiding people who are blind, alerting people who are deaf, pulling a wheelchair, alerting and protecting a person who is having a seizure, reminding a person with mental illness to take prescribed medications, calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack, or performing other duties. Service animals are working animals, not pets.  

As stated, this is "yes and no".  If the dog is owned by a person with PTSD, but the only the dog's presence calms the person, then it is not a service animal, but a ESA.  If the dog performs a "service", such as using its body to guide the PTSD sufferer away from potentially stressful situations, or asking for attention from the owner to distract him/her from the outside stress, then the dog is a "service dog".

[NLH Arizona]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

 

As stated, this is "yes and no".  If the dog is owned by a person with PTSD, but the only the dog's presence calms the person, then it is not a service animal, but a ESA.  If the dog performs a "service", such as using its body to guide the PTSD sufferer away from potentially stressful situations, or asking for attention from the owner to distract him/her from the outside stress, then the dog is a "service dog".

A service dog for someone with PTSD perfoms this task according to the ADA: calming a person with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack.

https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm  See How A "Service Animal" is defined on this ada website.  

 

The ADA goes on to provide examples of tasks that a service dog can perform, including “calming a person with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) during an anxiety attack.” And yet, service dogs for people with PTSD are often mislabeled as “emotional support animals” (ESAs), which are not covered by the ADA.

Edited October 8, 2019 by NLH Arizona

[DarrenM]

Unless its a dog for the blind or partially sighted, surely its just cruelty to take any animal on a cruise ship.

 

Yes, I believe it is.

 

I have nothing further to add.

[NLH Arizona]

7 minutes ago, DarrenM said:

Unless its a dog for the blind or partially sighted, surely its just cruelty to take any animal on a cruise ship.

 

Yes, I believe it is.

 

I have nothing further to add.

So you don't think a person with a service dog for their deafness or for their seiures or for their needs if they are in a wheelchair without mobility to pick up things, etc. or to alert them if their blood sugar is low because they have diabetes shouldn't be able to live a full life and cruise just like you, because you think it is cruel to take their service dog on a cruise.  Unbelievable.