Denied re-boarding ship due to violating cabotage law??

[Funatabi]

I am reserved to take the HAL 2020 world cruise, and there is some discussion on our roll call about leaving the ship in one port and re-boarding it in another port within the same country. For the sake of an example, it means leaving the ship in Yokohama, Japan, doing a land tour of Kyoto, and re-boarding in Kobe  (also Japan).

 

Due to cabotage laws, i.e., laws governing the carriage of passengers and freight by foreign airlines/ships within one country's domestic ports, some people are saying that you could be denied re-boarding the ship if you violate the cabotage laws by not re-boarding the ship in the same port where you disembarked. This is most likely to happen on long cruises with multiple port stops within the same country.

 

Permission from the cruise line, captain, or otherwise, is needed in advance, but even that might not always guarantee that the immigration authorities will allow re-boarding.

 

Here, my intention is not to start a lengthy discussion about cabotage laws, but instead simply know if anyone has heard of passengers being denied re-boarding because they violated the cabotage laws. In other words, does denied boarding happen?

 

 

 

 

[FlyerTalker]

I have not personally experienced or seen such.  However, since every country is in charge of their own immigration and customs regulations (spare the Schengen group), it would completely depend on the immigration laws of the country involved.  I do know that some countries do allow for cruise guests to have overnight land programs that start and end in different ports, with proper documentation.  But any specific question about Japan should be addressed to, and answered by, Japanese consular officials.  Any other answers would have zero force of law and be nothing more than hearsay.  Which I would never rely upon for such a decision.

[Shorex]

There are several examples of cruise lines offering an excursion that involves leaving the ship in one port and rejoining the ship in another, albeit in the same country. An overnight safari in South Africa is one example, a flight to Agra for the Taj Mahal is another. Who knows and understands the intricacies of cabotage laws in Japan? Doubt anyone here would qualify. Ferries in the US (Alaska), Norway and other countries let you leave the ferry and pick it up again in a different port. Personally, I wouldn't be concerned, but it's not my cruise.

[John Bull]

My understanding of cabotage rules is that they're designed to regulate whether folk do the exact opposite of what you have planned.

You want to disembark in one port & re-board in another port in the same country -  cabotage rules are to regulate whether folk can board at one port & disembark at another in the same country, because that could be construed as taking work away from local transportation (eg ferries).

That said, don't rely on me - check with the Japanese embassy.

 

One other important factor....

How reliable are the ports, especially the one whee you plan to re-board? If the ship fails to port there, (poor weather, mechanical issues etc) you'll have to play catch-up.

So you also need to figure how difficult it is to make your own way to the port after that one

There'll always be a risk,  you can research how big the risk thus how worthwhile your plans.

 

JB 

[Flatbush Flyer]

OP: No matter how you "slice it or dice it," there's also a vast difference between various types of "visas" within the same country. Everything from time in a single cruise port (or airport), movement between two cities in-country, etc. can govern the necessary choice of a "tourist (or other) visa" vs. an  "electronic travel authorization (ETA)" or some other access OK (sometimes introduced the "day before yesterday." Some Asian countries (China comes to mind) can be particularly complicated for the uninitiated.

So your challenge is more than just "cabotage."

[Heidi13]

Although I am a retired mariner, I must admit to having no knowledge of the specific Japanese Cabotage Laws. However, by virtue of the name, they are developed to protect the local Japanese Flag shipping companies. This is normally accomplished by restricting or preventing Foreign Flag ships from carrying cargo and passengers between Japanese ports.

 

The situation described by the OP does not meet the usual intent of Cabotage Laws that I have experience in UK, Canada & USA.

 

However, reason for a potential for refusing boarding at a different port is more likely to involve immigration and possible Visa issues. As other have indicated, I would check out the requirements through the Japanese Embassy/Consulate.

[LHT28]

 

It is a problem in the USA   but as stated above check with Japan & it's laws

Found this

 

http://www.naiko-kaiun.or.jp/e/union/union10.html

[sanger727]

I'm reading the OP's post as not exactly suggesting the itinerary deviation in Japan and asking if that is ok, but asking about cabotage laws in general.

 

 Yes,  cabotage laws exist and can interfere with you trying to change your itinerary and boarding and disembarking in different locations. They can also cause issues with B2B itineraries.

 

Yes, I've heard of people either being denied board or being charged excessively high penalties for boarding when they violate cabotage laws.

 

I am somewhat familiar with the laws as they exist in the US but not in other countries. And example in the US would be if you took a 15 night Hawaii cruise out of California and wanted to overnight in a port in Hawaii. If you board in California and want to get off in Hawaii (even for 1 night) you will violate the PVSA and the cruise line can certainly either deny re-boarding or pass along the several hundred dollars per person in fines they would accrue directly onto you.

 

Cruise lines can also choose to not allow you to disembark and re-board based on customs, immigration, or their own policies outside of cabotage laws. As previously suggested, the only real way to know if you can do an overnight in ports like this would be to contact the cruise line and get permission in writing first.

[chengkp75]

Based on the OP's original scenario, whether this would run afoul of the Japanese cabotage laws depends on what the port is before Yokohama (is it in Japan or a different country?) and what the port is after Kobe (is it in Japan or a different country?).  The answers to these questions, and others like "did the cruise originate in Japan?" and "if so, were there any non-Japanese ports before Yokohama?" and "did the cruise terminate in Japan" and "if so, were there non-Japanese ports after Kobe?" will determine whether cabotage laws apply.  Japan does have passenger cabotage laws similar to the US's PVSA, which is why the Japan cruises always have a Korean or Chinese port call.

[ldubs]

To get back to the OP's question, does anyone know if re-boarding a ship has actually been denied, or is this all blue sky stuff.  

 

Hmmm, I reread my comment and it sounds negative. That isn't intended.  Just wonder, like the OP,  if anyone has actually seen this happen

Edited October 18, 2019 by ldubs

[FlyerTalker]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

Hmmm, I reread my comment and it sounds negative. That isn't intended.  Just wonder, like the OP,  if anyone has actually seen this happen

 

And to repeat....even if it has or has not happened to anyone else, it would have ZERO bearing on what the laws and regulations are for the OP's intended scenario.  Only the Japanese government and the specific cruiseline can say if that is allowed or disallowed (and remembering that both need to say "Yes").

 

Now, if all we are interested in is fanciful musing, that's one thing.  Factual answers to assist the OP is another.

[ldubs]

3 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

And to repeat....even if it has or has not happened to anyone else, it would have ZERO bearing on what the laws and regulations are for the OP's intended scenario.  Only the Japanese government and the specific cruiseline can say if that is allowed or disallowed (and remembering that both need to say "Yes").

 

Now, if all we are interested in is fanciful musing, that's one thing.  Factual answers to assist the OP is another.

 

How is asking if someone has actually witnessed something a "fanciful musing"?   

 

 

 

[FlyerTalker]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

How is asking if someone has actually witnessed something a "fanciful musing"?  

 

Because, whether or not anyone has, it has no bearing to what the OP wishes to do.

 

Remove something from a factual situation and you have...fancy and hypotheticals.

 

But, if you think that irrelevant situations will assist the OP....go right ahead.

[ldubs]

1 minute ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

Because, whether or not anyone has, it has no bearing to what the OP wishes to do.

 

Remove something from a factual situation and you have...fancy and hypotheticals.

 

But, if you think that irrelevant situations will assist the OP....go right ahead.

 

Fancy Hypotheticals?   I was merely repeating the OP's very specific question if anyone has actually been denied re-boarding.  

 

I  did not offer any legal analysis or advice.  

[LHT28]

I would contact the cruise line  with your proposed  itinerary  & ask if it is possible 

Give them the ports that you want to disembark  & re board  in

Get  it in writing

 

[Tapi]

Besides cabotage laws, I’d be also concerned about the ship skipping the port of call at Kobe. Then what? 

[mnocket]

This is an interesting question.  I hope the OP posts a follow-up once he/she gets a definitive answer.

[Funatabi]

I am the OP, and sorry to have caused confusion. I am not even going to Japan on the cruise. I used the two Japanese ports for sake of example only. There are many other scenarios: Sydney/Darwin; Belem/Rio, etc.

 

In asking questions about this on other topics, I found out that one of the biggest issues is whether the intended re-boarding port is a dockside or tender port. Cabotage laws aside, a tender port has a high possibility of being bypassed/skipped due to poor weather conditions. One poster on another topic said that their request was denied because the re-boarding port was a tender port and the  ship wouldn't allow the overnight for that reason. So that alone would stop me from even thinking of doing an overnight.

 

Anyway, I appreciate your input and offering different ideas. I gather, then, that for the most part, denied re-boardings are not that common, but can/could happen or can involve costs to re-board. And no, I am not willing to do an overland stay to see what might happen. I was just curious.

 

[navybankerteacher]

14 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

How is asking if someone has actually witnessed something a "fanciful musing"?   

 

 

 

It is kind of “fanciful” to contemplate taking seriously any advice from an anonymous poster on a website like this. The “witness” being asked might have misunderstood the details of what he/she witnessed or might simply be making things up for whatever reason some posters on sites like this might have for posting the kind of tripe they sometimes do.

[Toofarfromthesea]

12 hours ago, FlyerTalker said:

 

Because, whether or not anyone has, it has no bearing to what the OP wishes to do.

 

Remove something from a factual situation and you have...fancy and hypotheticals.

 

But, if you think that irrelevant situations will assist the OP....go right ahead.

 

But OP didn't ask for some sort of definitive answer he asked, precisely, if anyone had experienced or seen boarding refused for violating the cabotage laws.

Sometimes people just like to ask for others' opinions or personal experience.  It doesn't mean they are necessarily going to act on them.  The rest is just normal thread chatter, which hardly needs the message police.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Toofarfromthesea

[LHT28]

47 minutes ago, Funatabi said:

I am the OP, and sorry to have caused confusion. I am not even going to Japan on the cruise. I used the two Japanese ports for sake of example only. There are many other scenarios: Sydney/Darwin; Belem/Rio, etc.

 

 

It is possible  but  it depends on the Country  where  you plan to overnight

People do in Europe often

some cruise lines will offer tours that drop you off in one port & pick the group up in another

[ldubs]

12 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

It is kind of “fanciful” to contemplate taking seriously any advice from an anonymous poster on a website like this. The “witness” being asked might have misunderstood the details of what he/she witnessed or might simply be making things up for whatever reason some posters on sites like this might have for posting the kind of tripe they sometimes do.

 

No disagreement but asking a question doesn't mean that any important decisions are going to be tied to an answer.   That applies to most conversations in general.      

[sanger727]

On 10/18/2019 at 4:43 PM, ldubs said:

To get back to the OP's question, does anyone know if re-boarding a ship has actually been denied, or is this all blue sky stuff.  

 

Hmmm, I reread my comment and it sounds negative. That isn't intended.  Just wonder, like the OP,  if anyone has actually seen this happen

Not specific to the idea of overnighting one port. But I have seen multiple posts from cruisers who were set to board in one port and missed embarkation. When their second port of call was also in the US and they were able to catch up and board the ship there; they were able to board but were hit with insanely high fines for the PVSA violation (think it’s in the range of $750 pp). So yes, they were permitted to board. But why anyone would choose to incur a fine like that is beyond me.