Golden Princess causes offence in New Zealand

[Brisbane41]

I read this news article today and not sure if anyone has seen it.

 

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12290113

 

I would have to say from the start that I have never been a fan of the cruise lines cheap and tacky ways that they take photos of passengers and have the crew dress up in silly costumes to pose for photos with purportedly adult passengers in a childish manner. Now it appears they have stooped to the level of having their crew impersonate tribal/ethnic/cultural groups for the sake of a photo.

[lissie]

Yah - I posted that in the Princess forum - a number of the Americans can't figure out what the problem was!!!! Made the news here - they have apologized - and I get the impression it was some "bright" idea from the (self employed?) ship photographers. They would have got told off if they'd  tried it on a kiwi cruiser

[Brisbane41]

3 minutes ago, lissie said:

Yah - I posted that in the Princess forum - a number of the Americans can't figure out what the problem was!!!! Made the news here - they have apologized - and I get the impression it was some "bright" idea from the (self employed?) ship photographers. They would have got told off if they'd  tried it on a kiwi cruiser

I just saw it there. I had expected it would have been posted in the Australia and New Zealand cruisers section.

 

I think in general America is taking a step back from political correctness as some political groups over there are taking it to an extreme and what is happening is that you can be racist/rude and offensive to people and it is no longer going to be offensive to some as a form of rebellion against the political correctness brigade.

 

My personal views are that this was racist, but not only against the New Zealanders and Maori, they are also exploiting those crew members from countries like the Philippines by forcing them to get dressed up and pose for photos with passengers. I have never liked what cruise lines do in regards to photos of this nature in port.

[The_Big_M]

I don't see it as racist - they're not saying anything negative or trying to do anything/discriminate against any race.

 

It's just the modern business world at work - the photographers are just trying to find an angle that's different from the standard photo, so put some costume on to represent the port they're visiting.

 

Does it appeal to me personally - no. But that's just the way things are in a business driven world that we're in.

[Brisbane41]

3 hours ago, The_Big_M said:

I don't see it as racist - they're not saying anything negative or trying to do anything/discriminate against any race.

 

It's just the modern business world at work - the photographers are just trying to find an angle that's different from the standard photo, so put some costume on to represent the port they're visiting.

 

Does it appeal to me personally - no. But that's just the way things are in a business driven world that we're in.

If anything I see it as more exploitation of "cheap foreign labour". I am not a fan of it. It is unprofessional and sloppy photography that no photographer worth their salt would even attempt. What I find bad about it is that it is treating us all like little kindergarten children lining up for photos with story book characters. It is just condescending and a lack of respect. Not only that it creates massive bottlenecks disembarking the ship slowing down the process and wasting the precious little time that passengers have in a port.

 

Now is it racist? That is a debatable topic. They may not have intended it to be but the New Zealanders took offence and it appears from the photos that the crew members were Filipino. I do feel for the Maori in this case as those body markings and the way they dress and perform is something that is unique to them. Having people imitate it for a cheap photo may be an insult to them. It could definitely be insulting. Racist maybe not as they are not intending to insult the race. But definitely culturally insensitive is probably the better word.

[OzKiwiJJ]

I'm not a fan of the photographic team's antics at ports but I suspect this is just another media beat-up. 

 

Firstly I very much doubt if the antics of those crew members came anywhere near resembling a powhiri (which is a powerful and very moving ceremony).

 

Secondly there would have been a number of local port staff in the vicinity and if it had truly been offensive then I would have expected one of those people to have had a quiet word to whoever was in charge to get it stopped immediately.

 

Thirdly that ship, plus a number of other Princess ships, visit Tauranga on a regular basis. Presumably the photographers do the same thing on every visit. It's strange that this time it ended up blown out of proportion by the media. It must have been a slow news day! 🙄

[oskarNZ]

I am one who does find it distasteful.  
While I don’t think for a second that they were trying to be intentionally racist, their actions show a complete lack of awareness of Māori culture and I can understand why people feel offended.  
 

It is hard to explain tikanga (Māori culture/custom) to someone who doesn’t live and breath it, but the act of ceremoniously welcoming someone to our homeland is taken seriously.  The role is usually only given to people with experience and respectful status. Likewise, not all Māori have moko (facial tattoos), but if they do, they tell a story and are culturally significant.   
 

The issue here is not that these ‘welcomers’ were a race other than Māori, it’s that they clearly had no knowledge or understanding of the race they were trying to mimic.  
 

It’s like they had picked up the grass skirts from some costume shop in Hawaii, they modelled their face paint from some kind of pretend army war game and they’re throwing around a couple of actions they might have seen on tv during a rugby match. 
 

It’s hard to explain, but perhaps it would be like if the crew ran off the ship in Sydney with some random wigs, sheets around their waists, and started blowing into a big piece of plastic piping trying to pretend their aborigine?

 

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by oskarNZ

[oskarNZ]

*they’re

 

Sorry it irks me when people get their, there and they’re mixed up.  And it really irks me when I do it.  😝

[lissie]

Its interesting - as a white Kiwi I see it as racist as well. Its up there with a white man wearing face paint to play a black person.  Maybe the difference this time was that someone got video?  Maybe theyd seen it last time and decided to video the next ship that did it?  Insensitive yes, but racist I think so. 

 

I don't know the port - but I doubt that any member of the public could approach the ship and complain - surely they'd be security. The people who work there are probably busy doing their jobs and aren't  going to raise something - which if  it went the wrong way could get them into trouble at work. 

[Brisbane41]

3 hours ago, lissie said:

Its interesting - as a white Kiwi I see it as racist as well. Its up there with a white man wearing face paint to play a black person.  Maybe the difference this time was that someone got video?  Maybe theyd seen it last time and decided to video the next ship that did it?  Insensitive yes, but racist I think so. 

 

I don't know the port - but I doubt that any member of the public could approach the ship and complain - surely they'd be security. The people who work there are probably busy doing their jobs and aren't  going to raise something - which if  it went the wrong way could get them into trouble at work. 

Its funny because I was exactly thinking the same thing this morning when I saw the news had made it to the ABC. I just thought how do American's view "blackface" these days. You are right it is happening in a secure area and the people working there would have strict conditions regarding their employment and may not get another contract if they upset a visiting cruise ship so it probably was hard to call it out.

[mr walker]

World is going crazy, with everyone being offended on behalf of others. We have seen, & have photos, of dress-ups at many ports-of-call. Where is the outrage on behalf of pirates, dolphins, koalas, sailors, penguins, Caribbean  cowboys, bordello girls etc etc?????

 

I would consider that the actions of the crew were in bad taste for being corny rather than offensive.

[Bubbeh]

I also think it is blatantly offensive.  There seems to be a problem for some people in being 'politically correct'.  Being PC only means being kind, polite and aware of others feelings and belief systems.  I am proudly PC and try very hard to behave with courtesy and dignity in all my dealings.  I know that sometimes I miss the mark but, as soon as this is either pointed out to me or I realise myself, I apologise and try to learn from the experience.  I'm sure that if everyone tried to live a respectful life, we would have less problems in the world. 

[OzKiwiJJ]

There are plenty of ways of discreetly and tactfully dealing with that sort of situation.

 

As I recall, from three cruise ship visits to Tauranga, there are always a number of local tourism people at the wharf, mostly probably volunteers. All that needed to be done was for one of those people to go over to the ship security people and say something like "hey, guys, what those photo people are doing is a bit of an insult to us locals so it might be a good idea if they stopped it". 

 

Or if it was noticed by one of the wharfies then that person would/should have mentioned to their supervisor who then would be able to escalate it to the appropriate people.

[The_Big_M]

3 hours ago, mr walker said:

World is going crazy, with everyone being offended on behalf of others. We have seen, & have photos, of dress-ups at many ports-of-call. Where is the outrage on behalf of pirates, dolphins, koalas, sailors, penguins, Caribbean  cowboys, bordello girls etc etc?????

 

I would consider that the actions of the crew were in bad taste for being corny rather than offensive.

 

It seems dressing up as an animal is (currently) okay. Dressing up as a human is not - by some.

 

That said, I would have no issue if they dressed up in Australian caricature garb e.g. Akubra, drizabone, or singlet and zinc, or whatever, and through some ocker expressions out in a well natured way. I don't see anything to take offense about there; it's not mocking, it's just presenting an image of that local appearance. And I'm not so precious to say that you can't appear to be/act Australian if you weren't born Australian.

[Brisbane41]

3 hours ago, mr walker said:

World is going crazy, with everyone being offended on behalf of others. We have seen, & have photos, of dress-ups at many ports-of-call. Where is the outrage on behalf of pirates, dolphins, koalas, sailors, penguins, Caribbean  cowboys, bordello girls etc etc?????

 

I would consider that the actions of the crew were in bad taste for being corny rather than offensive.

I have actually always hated it. At every port they create bottle-necks at the gangway and disrupt the flow of passengers. With such precious little time in port holding up as many passengers at the gangway and forcing them to queue up for a childish photo is not going to win them any fans.

 

When they try to bail me up on the gangway exiting the ship I just say loud enough "not interested I am not in kindergarten anymore" and move on.

 

In regards to the New Zealand situation it appears that the offence was taken not by the fact that they did the dress up but the way they did it by just drawing nonsense lines on their faces implying that the face art was not intricate but something primitive and mindless. That I can understand causes offence.

 

All of this disruption and time wasting of passengers is all in pursuit of profits.

[GUT2407]

Never seen any bottlenecks at the gang ways no matter if they are dressed up or just taking photos against a back drop, just a polite, “no thanks” and walk on bye.

[LittleFish1976]

This sort of thing ('dressing up' as people from other cultures) is considered cultural appropriation and just not on these days. What I've learnt, from listening to people and trying to fit in with a changing world, is that it doesn't matter if I/we think something is racist; if someone from another culture feels it is racist towards them, then it is.

[Brisbane41]

14 minutes ago, LittleFish1976 said:

This sort of thing ('dressing up' as people from other cultures) is considered cultural appropriation and just not on these days. What I've learnt, from listening to people and trying to fit in with a changing world, is that it doesn't matter if I/we think something is racist; if someone from another culture feels it is racist towards them, then it is.

Its a touchy subject that one. If they are doing it for business or to make money off the culture then it is definitely offensive.

 

However take Japan for example. They have traditional hotels where a Yukata is left in the room for guests to wear around the hotel and to dinner and within the grounds. Now clearly foreigners are welcome to wear this and it is their traditional dress.

 

Then there are the countries in the middle east where women are invited or encouraged to wear headscarves or a head covering, yet having them reciprocate and wear western traditional clothes in western countries is another story. The middle east is definitely an area where women are encouraged to wear the traditional and cultural head coverings.

 

I think if invited to and welcome to wear a countries traditional form of clothing then you are free to do so. If there is some sort of rank order, culture or ritual that only certain people can wear the clothing then it is best not to.

 

In the case of what happened in New Zealand it was clearly a case of people doing crude drawings on their face with strange non traditional straw skirts. That was clearly wrong.

[mr walker]

15 hours ago, LittleFish1976 said:

This sort of thing ('dressing up' as people from other cultures) is considered cultural appropriation and just not on these days. What I've learnt, from listening to people and trying to fit in with a changing world, is that it doesn't matter if I/we think something is racist; if someone from another culture feels it is racist towards them, then it is.

 

Often though it is people not of that 'race' being offended on behalf of the people of that 'race'. That is what I have an issue with.

[Brisbane41]

28 minutes ago, mr walker said:

 

Often though it is people not of that 'race' being offended on behalf of the people of that 'race'. That is what I have an issue with.

I do not see it like that.

 

Picture this scenario. Would you go to a brothel to find true love? Now it is a rhetorical question of course. Or why go to a park when you can just pop a pill?

 

Its the authenticity of it. The cruise lines will line passengers up in a port of call in a revenue raising exercise to take photos of passengers of people with something unique to that country. Then it turns out that the people they are using as props in the photos to make money are "fake" its not real.

 

Now if they were real Maori in New Zealand lining up for photos with passengers it would be a big difference. It is authentic. They know the traditional attire and are the real deal. In Princess Cruise lines case they got Filipino crew members to pose as Maori. It is totally fake. It is just the same as going to a brothel to find the love of your life. You will still find love in a brothel but it won't be real love. It will only ever be fake.

 

The issues I have with is I have outlined before, but I think everyone is entitled to call this out whether they are a member of that race or culture or not. 

[Bpos]

9 hours ago, Brisbane41 said:

I do not see it like that.

 

Picture this scenario. Would you go to a brothel to find true love? Now it is a rhetorical question of course. Or why go to a park when you can just pop a pill?

 

Its the authenticity of it. The cruise lines will line passengers up in a port of call in a revenue raising exercise to take photos of passengers of people with something unique to that country. Then it turns out that the people they are using as props in the photos to make money are "fake" its not real.

 

Now if they were real Maori in New Zealand lining up for photos with passengers it would be a big difference. It is authentic. They know the traditional attire and are the real deal. In Princess Cruise lines case they got Filipino crew members to pose as Maori. It is totally fake. It is just the same as going to a brothel to find the love of your life. You will still find love in a brothel but it won't be real love. It will only ever be fake.

 

The issues I have with is I have outlined before, but I think everyone is entitled to call this out whether they are a member of that race or culture or not. 

 

I have a friend who firmly believes he has found true love in  a brothel in Vietnam several years ago and continues to believe so despite our and his wife's misgivings and a depleted bank balance to boot.  Just how does one define 'real love'.

[The_Big_M]

13 hours ago, Brisbane41 said:

Now if they were real Maori in New Zealand lining up for photos with passengers it would be a big difference. It is authentic. They know the traditional attire and are the real deal. In Princess Cruise lines case they got Filipino crew members to pose as Maori. It is totally fake. It is just the same as going to a brothel to find the love of your life. You will still find love in a brothel but it won't be real love. It will only ever be fake.

 

Just because you don't like it, or it is not authentic does not make it offensive or the equivalent of racist. 

 

It may not be authentic but many are not offended by brothels, so the analogy doesn't support that assessment here either.

[oskarNZ]

19 hours ago, mr walker said:

 

Often though it is people not of that 'race' being offended on behalf of the people of that 'race'. That is what I have an issue with.

If staff ran off the ship in Cabo San Lucas with bronze painted faces and ponchos they’d picked up from an Inuit themed store during an Alaskan cruise, and they danced around a hat calling “Arriba Arriba” (because that’s about the extent of Mexican ‘culture’ they’d got from watching a few cartoons), then, yes, this Non-Mexican would be offended on behalf of the locals.  

 

There’s nothing wrong with being offended on behalf of someone else.  It’s part of empathy and social understanding. 

 

 

 

 

[Brisbane41]

9 hours ago, The_Big_M said:

 

Just because you don't like it, or it is not authentic does not make it offensive or the equivalent of racist. 

 

It may not be authentic but many are not offended by brothels, so the analogy doesn't support that assessment here either.

Yeah may not be offensive or racist but it does effect us all.

 

It effects those passengers who travel and pay money for a genuine experience in a foreign country. Now if you take racism away then those passengers on Golden Princess were first greeted to New Zealand by people who were fake and not even Maori. Too bad if you wanted a genuine experience. I am sure they will get it elsewhere. What this essentially is a cruise line profiteering and replacing genuine experiences with artificial ones. Soon enough the ship wont have to dock in a port. Lets start implementing virtual reality goggles and keeping them on the ship while touring the port. They would make a fortune.

[Beanb41]

Cruise ship photographers on the quayside are at best tacky. They consider it funny or appropriate to dress up to entice passengers to have photographs taken with them. Whist many on the cruise wouldn't be aware of the insensitivity of the actions by the photographers it is fair to say that if a blond Norwegian photographer painted his face black in New Orleans and tried to take photos of passengers all hell would break loose.

Whilst Princess have been caught out in this instance they are not alone in the crass acts carried out by the photographers.

Ever tried to get a photo of the lifebuoy stating which port you are in with your own camera , if not try it and watch the them go ballistic over what they see as their intellectual property.

The sooner they stop this crap on all cruise lines the better.