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The Carnival Glory struck the Carnival Legend and almost hit the Oasis of the Seas

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13 minutes ago, Merion_Mom said:

@twangster

 

I *could* be wrong, but it looks like CNNbusiness posted your photo.  Did you grant permission?

 

That photo has shade in it and appears to have been taken very shortly after the crash.  Mine are all in full sun when the ship turned to back in.  I'm sure there are 3,000 pictures like it.  Lot's of people were on board and taking pictures.  This picture has a person's name in the upper right.  Thanks for watching out though.

 

3 minutes ago, xpcdoojk said:

 

Do you have rights when you post things in a public forum?  I don’t post enough pictures to have a clue.

 

jc

 

Pictures posted on the internet may still be subject to copyright and other laws.  There is no general rule that if it's posted on the internet it's free to use.  Media are always very careful to secure permission prior to using any content - they know better.  The average Joe who copies a picture and pastes it on FB or somewhere else doesn't realize they might be in the wrong if pursued.  

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1 hour ago, twangster said:

Despite the collision with the Legend, the bridge crew on the Glory did a pretty spectacular job avoiding a collision with the Oasis.  When I first saw the bow of the Glory come into view it was close.  Too close.  It occured to me a collision was highly possible. 

 

Thank you for the images!

 

I've only seen a couple of clips from various perspectives and as you noted, relative distances can be misleading depending on camera/lens.  Still, it seems like the impact with the Legend may have occurred in part because the bridge crew was concerned about the proximity of the Oasis.  More aggressive use of stern thrusterss or main propulsion to avoid the Legend would have pushed the bow towards Oasis.  Given how close the impact was, I could see the Captain and others resisting the urge to aggressively stop the motion of the stern and risk moving even closer to Oasis. 

 

I'm curious if from your perspective on Oasis this makes sense?

 

1 hour ago, twangster said:

There are some ports where a Captain turns over command of the ship to a pilot.  I strongly doubt this is one of them.  I have a high degree of certainty this will fall onto the Captain.  Even if the Staff Captain was bringing her in this time the Master would have been on the bridge and ultimately is responsible.  

 

I know some of the professional mariners on this board have pointed out that the person with hands on the controls, the person issuing orders of what to do (having the "conn"), and the person ultimately responsible can all vary with the port, phase of approach/docking, and other factors.  I believe you are correct that the Master will have ultimate responsibility in this case, regardless of if they, the staff captain, or the pilot was issuing orders or had hands on controls.

 

That doesn't mean the Captain is getting reprimanded or fired though.  Unanticipated wind or mechanical failure, adherence to Carnival policy, and how reasonable the decision making was will all be considered.  The transportation industry as a whole has generally made an effort to look at solutions going forward rather than take punitive action.  It doesn't mean they won't find something wrong with the Captain's actions, but there is no way for any of us to know at this point.

 

Regardless, whether do to skill or luck, it is fortunate this was not a much worse situation!

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(some info repeats from earlier post .. I first built this for a different site . . . )

 

This screen capture from MarineTraffic.com shows the track of GLORY this morning. The track is of a GPS antenna on the top of the bridge (on the ship icons you may notice a small circle near the bow. . .) so think of the icon moving along this line but the ship's heading may not match the way it is pointing ....

IMO the track clearly shows that an approach was being made to the pier then for some reason they began to drift too quickly to the east and tried to abort .... I suspect they were trying to turn around to back in to park when the wind and current grabbed hold.

Since they were this close to the pier a pilot WAS on board. the pilot is an 'advisor' to the captain but in truth 'bridge dynamics' between pilot and captain can be interesting .... there are videos from other vantage points and OASIS was not hit ....

image.thumb.png.1c522bc1ef23aec25e79eb878fe5ff3f.png



As one who's parked his ship here I'd note that yes the wind is blowing but this area is also know for STRONG currents that can shift in minutes from running south westerly to running north easterly especially when there's a stiff wind. Pilot has strongly cautioned about this every time I came in . . .

There is also video of an NCL ship aborting a landing here this am ... nearly running aground and then just leaving ... port call cancelled!

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31 minutes ago, twangster said:

 

That photo has shade in it and appears to have been taken very shortly after the crash.  Mine are all in full sun when the ship turned to back in.  I'm sure there are 3,000 pictures like it.  Lot's of people were on board and taking pictures.  This picture has a person's name in the upper right.  Thanks for watching out though.

 

 

Pictures posted on the internet may still be subject to copyright and other laws.  There is no general rule that if it's posted on the internet it's free to use.  Media are always very careful to secure permission prior to using any content - they know better.  The average Joe who copies a picture and pastes it on FB or somewhere else doesn't realize they might be in the wrong if pursued.  

Not on Ebay. Anything goes there

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12 minutes ago, AL3XCruise said:

 

Thank you for the images!

 

I've only seen a couple of clips from various perspectives and as you noted, relative distances can be misleading depending on camera/lens.  Still, it seems like the impact with the Legend may have occurred in part because the bridge crew was concerned about the proximity of the Oasis.  More aggressive use of stern thrusterss or main propulsion to avoid the Legend would have pushed the bow towards Oasis.  Given how close the impact was, I could see the Captain and others resisting the urge to aggressively stop the motion of the stern and risk moving even closer to Oasis. 

 

I'm curious if from your perspective on Oasis this makes sense?

 

 

I know some of the professional mariners on this board have pointed out that the person with hands on the controls, the person issuing orders of what to do (having the "conn"), and the person ultimately responsible can all vary with the port, phase of approach/docking, and other factors.  I believe you are correct that the Master will have ultimate responsibility in this case, regardless of if they, the staff captain, or the pilot was issuing orders or had hands on controls.

 

That doesn't mean the Captain is getting reprimanded or fired though.  Unanticipated wind or mechanical failure, adherence to Carnival policy, and how reasonable the decision making was will all be considered.  The transportation industry as a whole has generally made an effort to look at solutions going forward rather than take punitive action.  It doesn't mean they won't find something wrong with the Captain's actions, but there is no way for any of us to know at this point.

 

Regardless, whether do to skill or luck, it is fortunate this was not a much worse situation!

Bow and stern thrusters were probably used but the wind was extremely strong. It takes a long time to move sideways.

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3 hours ago, John&LaLa said:

 

First rule of Italian driving

 

What's behind you is not important

 

Second rule

 

Traffic lights are merely suggestions

Same as Florida driving

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58 minutes ago, twodaywonder said:

A dumb captain, period. Bet he will be looking for another job.

It wasn't his fault.  He blew the horn!

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1 minute ago, twodaywonder said:

Bow and stern thrusters were probably used but the wind was extremely strong. It takes a long time to move sideways.

 

This is true, the wind was strong but not pushing her towards Oasis.  I was shooting video earlier of the ferries going to the mainland with a telephoto lens and they were moving quite a bit.  Bad day for an excursion on the mainland.

 

The wind was pretty much straight on towards Legend.  In my pictures her flags are blowing down the centerline of the ship.  

 

The tracks from marinetraffic.com show the forward speed as a color.  Glory's initial approach was fast but no faster than Oasis or Regal Princess.   There was no change in the color to show she was slowing.  She never dropped below 4 knots until she attempted to turn.  She turned at speed and really had no choice but to keep going, she had too much momentum towards Legend.  The turn is probably what slowed her down the little bit it did. 

 

The wind was nearly broadside to Glory on her approach.  I suspect that forced her to be further Southeast and closer to the pier than she intended to be.  I think they made the decision to abort well before the Legend impact but she couldn't turn and get her bow into the wind.  With all the momentum towards the pier and wind still blowing her Southeast she clipped the Legend but still had a lot of momentum towards Oasis as she side slipped.  They got her turned but momentum was still carrying her towards us in the original direction of motion.  

 

The track indicates she accelerated to just over 5 knots as she tried to get away from the Legend and was moving past us.  They were trying to get her out of there and that acceleration may just be what allowed her to curve her way around Oasis without striking us. If she was still moving at a slower forward rate she may have simply slid into us broadside or her miships would have contacted the Oasis bow. 

 

Ships don't react instantaneously.   You have to think 5, 10, 15 seconds ahead.  Where will the ship be and at what heading 10 or 20 seconds from now?   This is where I think they saved the day and managed to get Glory to do an S turn around Oasis and then out to sea before running aground.  

 

 

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51 minutes ago, AL3XCruise said:

 

Thank you for the images!

 

I've only seen a couple of clips from various perspectives and as you noted, relative distances can be misleading depending on camera/lens.  Still, it seems like the impact with the Legend may have occurred in part because the bridge crew was concerned about the proximity of the Oasis.  More aggressive use of stern thrusterss or main propulsion to avoid the Legend would have pushed the bow towards Oasis.  Given how close the impact was, I could see the Captain and others resisting the urge to aggressively stop the motion of the stern and risk moving even closer to Oasis. 

 

I'm curious if from your perspective on Oasis this makes sense?

 

 

I know some of the professional mariners on this board have pointed out that the person with hands on the controls, the person issuing orders of what to do (having the "conn"), and the person ultimately responsible can all vary with the port, phase of approach/docking, and other factors.  I believe you are correct that the Master will have ultimate responsibility in this case, regardless of if they, the staff captain, or the pilot was issuing orders or had hands on controls.

 

That doesn't mean the Captain is getting reprimanded or fired though.  Unanticipated wind or mechanical failure, adherence to Carnival policy, and how reasonable the decision making was will all be considered.  The transportation industry as a whole has generally made an effort to look at solutions going forward rather than take punitive action.  It doesn't mean they won't find something wrong with the Captain's actions, but there is no way for any of us to know at this point.

 

Regardless, whether do to skill or luck, it is fortunate this was not a much worse situation!

If there was a mechanical failure, I can agree, the Captain will get a ticket out of this. However, if it had to do with wind, the Captain holds 100% of the liability. Wind, in any maritime vessel is of utmost concern and any Captain worth his salt knows this, and understands the laws of wind on his vessel. Heck, even small boat captains understand how to use wind to their advantage. In fact, one of the most knowledgeable aspects of a maritime Captain is understanding how wind affects his vessel. If this accident was wind related, he's toast. 

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@twangster were seas particularly rough today?  we'll be in cozumel in two weeks, so hope it's still in one piece!

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12 minutes ago, rusty nut said:

If there was a mechanical failure, I can agree, the Captain will get a ticket out of this. However, if it had to do with wind, the Captain holds 100% of the liability. Wind, in any maritime vessel is of utmost concern and any Captain worth his salt knows this, and understands the laws of wind on his vessel. Heck, even small boat captains understand how to use wind to their advantage. In fact, one of the most knowledgeable aspects of a maritime Captain is understanding how wind affects his vessel. If this accident was wind related, he's toast. 

Wind and currents. Exactly! No excuse for this at all. Wonder if he was actually on the bridge when it happened.

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If weather conditions were as bad as everyone seems to be saying why were they even given permission to dock?  I think the blame falls on more than just the captain.  

 

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28 minutes ago, uvadover said:

@twangster were seas particularly rough today?  we'll be in cozumel in two weeks, so hope it's still in one piece!

 

We had a spirited ride in the final hours approaching Cozumel.  I woke a few times and felt myself moving in my bed ever so slightly.  My balcony glass and balcony windows were covered in salt spray in the morning.  So the wind was definitely up this morning and there were white caps but our upper decks were never closed.

 

17 minutes ago, voyager70 said:

If weather conditions were as bad as everyone seems to be saying why were they even given permission to dock?  I think the blame falls on more than just the captain.  

 

 

Every other ship made it in safely.  Oasis reversed in just fine and we have much more side to act as a sail.  

 

The more I think of it I think they just didn't turn soon enough and the wind or current had them closer to their pier than they should have been.  Had they turned 30 seconds earlier and reversed in further they would have been fine.  

 

Here is my "Monday morning quarterback" solution to what should have occured in green:

 

oa_glory-28.jpg

 

 

Edited by twangster

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21 minutes ago, Merion_Mom said:

"Two ships that DIDN'T pass in the night."

 

Funny you say this.  We had a Carnival ship off our port side yesterday before dark.  Through the haze I could see a whale tale.  I think it might have been Glory.  It seemed like it was going to overtake us, it was going faster that us by a small margin at one point.  I was wondering if they were trying to beat us to the pilot station.  

 

I went to happy hour and forgot about it.  

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14 minutes ago, twangster said:

Every other ship made it in safely.  Oasis reversed in just fine and we have much more side to act as a sail. 

Oasis class and particularly the two newest ships have lots of power and can handle conditions that would turn most other ships away. The azipods and bow thrusters can practically spin the ship on a dime. It does seem based on what we know that Glory either misjudged the situation or got caught up in an unexpected change in wind and/or current and was unable to correct in time. From my sailing days off the beaches of Cape Cod I learned the hard way that a rudder is useless unless there is forward movement relative to the current, so it seems like the ship is vulnerable to losing directional control when swinging around like that.

Edited by Pratique

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I would be interested in what was happening on the bridge of the Oasis during this.  Since she was tied up I wouldn't think she'd have a lot of options?  Probably just an officer on watch but what could he/she do when seeing this thing slowly unfold?  Must have felt mighty helpless as the Carnival ship nearly ran Oasis over!

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8 minutes ago, Pratique said:

Oasis class and particularly the two newest ships have lots of power and can handle conditions that would turn most other ships away. The azipods and bow thrusters can practically spin the ship on a dime. It does seem based on what we know that Glory either misjudged the situation or got caught up in an unexpected change in wind and/or current and was unable to correct in time. From my sailing days off the beaches of Cape Cod I learned the hard way that a rudder is useless unless there is forward movement relative to the current, so it seems like the ship is vulnerable to losing directional control when swinging around like that.

 

Ships this size carry a lot of momentum.  When you change heading that momentum doesn't instantaneously change heading with you.  You can turn the bow 10° but the ship is still moving in the original direction even though the bow is now 10° different.  

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1 minute ago, BuckeyeMark said:

I would be interested in what was happening on the bridge of the Oasis during this.  Since she was tied up I wouldn't think she'd have a lot of options?  Probably just an officer on watch but what could he/she do when seeing this thing slowly unfold?  Must have felt mighty helpless as the Carnival ship nearly ran Oasis over!

 

Speculation - the Captain is called to the bridge.  They might call for engines to be ready, put teams on alert.  If a crash occurred lines can snap and gangways can be dislodged.  Bow thrusters and azipods might be needed on short notice.  

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19 minutes ago, Pratique said:

From my sailing days off the beaches of Cape Cod I learned the hard way that a rudder is useless unless there is forward movement relative to the current, so it seems like the ship is vulnerable to losing directional control when swinging around like that.

 

Two cents would be generous for my thoughts, but here they are:

 

Water motion relative to the rudder, and the design of the rudder, are key.  Props pushing a lot of water across a high-lift rudder can start turning the ship even with little or no motion.  And of course Azipods, like on the Oasis, are a different animal.  

 

But you are right that the wind is still immensely powerful and can cause a loss of control, even though big ships have a few tricks a sailboat lacks (more power, thrusters, and different rudder designs).  Not to mention even if the rudders were effective, using them to turn the ship would probably have pushed the bow closer Oasis.

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