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docsdrillers

Posing this Corona Virus Question to Health and Science Professionals

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I tried a google search to see if the Virus can be killed by Dishwashers and i couldn't find any answers.

 

With the number of passengers infected on the Diamond Princess tripling it seems that this is a fairly important/valid question.

If they are being fed and the same dishes are being circulated throughout the 14 days then isn't that a source of reinfection that renders this 14 day Quarantine useless.

One interesting tidbit that my research uncovered is that the Norovirus cannot be killed by dishwashers alone..considering cruise lines are notorious for those types of outbreaks it really makes you wonder on the effectiveness of current measures in protecting passengers.

Edited by docsdrillers

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Those are not new cases. The tests take a while to complete. So the numbers increase as the results become available. The tally is 61 of the original 273 folks who had contact or close proximity to the first sickened pax. If I am not mistaken they are now done with all 273 tests.   This gives about a 22% rate of infection. I hope they are also using this data set to accurately determine the sensitivity and specificity of this new test so we can determine the probabilities of false positives and false negatives. They should also get estimates of the percentage of positive patients who are asymptotic or who have milder symptoms. Carriers can be especially problematic in controlling the spread.  I’m a statistician so maybe not who you were hoping for to reply. 

Folks on the diamond are monitoring their temps and at this time will only be tested if they are symptomatic. Watch David Abel’s Facebook video’s . He’s a real hoot and lots of people are posting links to the newest developments.  
 

Edited by HaveDogWillTravel

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7 hours ago, docsdrillers said:

I tried a google search to see if the Virus can be killed by Dishwashers and i couldn't find any answers...

If they are being fed and the same dishes are being circulated throughout the 14 days then isn't that a source of reinfection that renders this 14 day Quarantine useless.

One interesting tidbit that my research uncovered is that the Norovirus cannot be killed by dishwashers alone..considering cruise lines are notorious for those types of outbreaks it really makes you wonder on the effectiveness of current measures in protecting passengers.

Retired health care provider. Consider that when you go into a restaurant, the dishes and flatware have been used by previous diners, then washed in a dishwasher. Unknown to you, those diners may have had a cold, possibly a mild strain coronavirus, or a bacterial infection. Hospital inpatients use dishes and flatware that have been used by other inpatients previously, but then sanitized in a dishwasher.  Sanitization is indicated and commercial dishwashers have that capability. 

Edited by mtnesterz

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6 minutes ago, mtnesterz said:

Retired health care provider. Consider that when you go into a restaurant, the dishes and flatware have been used by previous diners, then washed in a dishwasher. Unknown to you, those diners may have had a cold, possibly a mild strain coronavirus, or a bacterial infection. Hospital inpatients use dishes and flatware that have been used by other inpatients previously, but then sanitized in a dishwasher.  Sanitization is indicated and commercial dishwashers have that capability. 

Thank you.

I am amazed at how the cruise lines get berated because they are required to keep meticulous records of outbreaks.

Airlines/Trains/Buses/Taxis/hotels etc etc are not.

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8 hours ago, docsdrillers said:

One interesting tidbit that my research uncovered is that the Norovirus cannot be killed by dishwashers alone..considering cruise lines are notorious for those types of outbreaks it really makes you wonder on the effectiveness of current measures in protecting passengers.

I think it is unlikely that Norovirus can be spread from crockery/utensils that have been washed in a dishwasher. We have been on many, many cruises that has Red Alert for Noro and have never caught it. 

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I don't know if the dishwasher's aboard ships have a higher heat setting than standard commercial ones.

But commercial dishwashers like in our homes cannot kill Norovirus.

 

We haven't been told how hardy the Corona virus is relative to the norovirus...

 

The point of my post is to generate that discussion within the cruise industry to give us the information so we can make calculated decisions as to whether we should risk Cruise travel at this time.

 

I haven't even touched on the issue of shared recirculated air on the Diamond Princess.

 

These people are in a horrific situation and are now being told that there may not be a concrete end date to their Quarantine in case new cases pop up..

 

 

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18 minutes ago, docsdrillers said:

These people are in a horrific situation and are now being told that there may not be a concrete end date to their Quarantine in case new cases pop up..

Not exactly. Japanese authorities have announced that the quarantine will end on 19th February unless there are unforeseen events. More people testing positive is highly likely - that would be a foreseen event.

 

It is suggested that the proviso has been added to cover all eventualities and in case people get 'stupid' and break quarantine.

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Not chengkp75 but having spent years in the F&B industry I can tell you that to pass a Health Dept. inspection a commercial dishwasher must achieve a final rinse temperature of 180 degrees at 25 pounds rinse water pressure.

These figures are far above the capability of your household dishwasher.

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9 hours ago, docsdrillers said:

I haven't even touched on the issue of shared recirculated air on the Diamond Princess.

One of the main reason that the guests are quarantined in their cabins most of the day, is that the AC in cabins is not shared or recirculated.  There are two AC systems on the ship.  One takes outside air, cools it, and supplies it to the cabins, in a one way flow.  This fresh air supplied to the cabins is almost balanced by the bathroom exhaust which takes the air to the outside, in a one way flow.  The fresh air supply is slightly greater than the exhaust to keep the cabin at a slight positive pressure relative to the outside, and to the passageway outside the cabin.  The AC controlled by the cabin thermostat is air within the cabin, that is recirculated within the cabin, passing over the individual cabin's cooler.

7 hours ago, foodsvcmgr said:

Not chengkp75 but having spent years in the F&B industry I can tell you that to pass a Health Dept. inspection a commercial dishwasher must achieve a final rinse temperature of 180 degrees at 25 pounds rinse water pressure.

These figures are far above the capability of your household dishwasher.

Those are the same standards that USPH requires for shipboard dishwashers, and in addition, they test (and the ship's supervisors test regularly) to see if the surface temperature of the dishware reaches 160*F using a one time, stick on temperature strip.  Additionally, just like handwashing does not kill noro, it merely loosens it from the skin and flushes it away (still active) down the drain, warewashing removes the virus from the dishware using soap and water.

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29 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

One of the main reason that the guests are quarantined in their cabins most of the day, is that the AC in cabins is not shared or recirculated.  There are two AC systems on the ship.  One takes outside air, cools it, and supplies it to the cabins, in a one way flow.  This fresh air supplied to the cabins is almost balanced by the bathroom exhaust which takes the air to the outside, in a one way flow.  The fresh air supply is slightly greater than the exhaust to keep the cabin at a slight positive pressure relative to the outside, and to the passageway outside the cabin.  The AC controlled by the cabin thermostat is air within the cabin, that is recirculated within the cabin, passing over the individual cabin's cooler.

Those are the same standards that USPH requires for shipboard dishwashers, and in addition, they test (and the ship's supervisors test regularly) to see if the surface temperature of the dishware reaches 160*F using a one time, stick on temperature strip.  Additionally, just like handwashing does not kill noro, it merely loosens it from the skin and flushes it away (still active) down the drain, warewashing removes the virus from the dishware using soap and water.

Very interesting. Thank you for posting this information.

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1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

One of the main reason that the guests are quarantined in their cabins most of the day, is that the AC in cabins is not shared or recirculated.  There are two AC systems on the ship.  One takes outside air, cools it, and supplies it to the cabins, in a one way flow.  This fresh air supplied to the cabins is almost balanced by the bathroom exhaust which takes the air to the outside, in a one way flow.  The fresh air supply is slightly greater than the exhaust to keep the cabin at a slight positive pressure relative to the outside, and to the passageway outside the cabin.  The AC controlled by the cabin thermostat is air within the cabin, that is recirculated within the cabin, passing over the individual cabin's cooler.

Those are the same standards that USPH requires for shipboard dishwashers, and in addition, they test (and the ship's supervisors test regularly) to see if the surface temperature of the dishware reaches 160*F using a one time, stick on temperature strip.  Additionally, just like handwashing does not kill noro, it merely loosens it from the skin and flushes it away (still active) down the drain, warewashing removes the virus from the dishware using soap and water.

As always, I appreciate your level headed expert voice. I am not concerned by plumbing and the way air and water are provided to those on the Diamond but I’ve seen reports of this virus being transported thru plumbing. 
You mention that viruses are not killed, but loosened and washed away.  Would you be so kind as to perhaps expand on that?  I think some may be worried about any cleansing and recycling of water.  Others may be worried about environmental hazards.  
My apologies if these are questions you feel do not lie within your realm of expertise. 
 

Again, I thank you for all the times you’ve helped us here on CC to answer important questions.  
 

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39 minutes ago, HaveDogWillTravel said:

As always, I appreciate your level headed expert voice. I am not concerned by plumbing and the way air and water are provided to those on the Diamond but I’ve seen reports of this virus being transported thru plumbing. 
You mention that viruses are not killed, but loosened and washed away.  Would you be so kind as to perhaps expand on that?  I think some may be worried about any cleansing and recycling of water.  Others may be worried about environmental hazards.  
My apologies if these are questions you feel do not lie within your realm of expertise. 
 

Again, I thank you for all the times you’ve helped us here on CC to answer important questions.  
 

Soap and water do not kill any bacteria or viruses, soap is merely a lubricant that loosens germs from the skin, the friction of rubbing the hands together also loosens the germs, and the water rinses the still active germs away.

 

I've not heard of coronavirus being transported by "plumbing", though I'm not sure whether you mean water supply or waste piping.  Water on a ship is not recycled, except in some very limited and controlled instances.  The water you use on the ship, or the water used to prepare your food or wash your linens, is treated and sent overboard.  The very few instances of water recycling are if treated waste water (from an Advanced Waste Water Treatment Plant, which produces virtually drinking water quality effluent from the ship's waste water) can be used as "technical water" by the engineering department in their machinery (engine cooling systems, for example), or it may be used in the ship's garbage disposal system, but it must be chlorinated, as is the water supply for human use.  

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12 hours ago, docsdrillers said:

I don't know if the dishwasher's aboard ships have a higher heat setting than standard commercial ones.

But commercial dishwashers like in our homes cannot kill Norovirus.

Washing your hands does not kill norovirus.  That isn't how hand washing is protective.  Washing your hands with soap and water flushes the virus from your hands.  A dishwasher will be far more effective at removing, not killing, the virus from dinner ware.

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12 hours ago, docsdrillers said:

I don't know if the dishwasher's aboard ships have a higher heat setting than standard commercial ones.

But commercial dishwashers like in our homes cannot kill Norovirus.

 

 

Home dishwashers are nothing like commercial dishwashers.

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16 hours ago, docsdrillers said:

I don't know if the dishwasher's aboard ships have a higher heat setting than standard commercial ones.

But commercial dishwashers like in our homes cannot kill Norovirus.

 

We haven't been told how hardy the Corona virus is relative to the norovirus...

 

The point of my post is to generate that discussion within the cruise industry to give us the information so we can make calculated decisions as to whether we should risk Cruise travel at this time.

 

I haven't even touched on the issue of shared recirculated air on the Diamond Princess.

 

These people are in a horrific situation and are now being told that there may not be a concrete end date to their Quarantine in case new cases pop up..

 

 

"commercial" dishwashers refer to those in restaurants, ships, etc,; in other words, those sold to businesses, not at retail outlets like Sears, etc., to homes.

Edited by jwattle

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Chengkp75, thank you so much for explaining the AC system. There is so much fake news about this on Aussie FB cruise forums so I have taken the liberty of quoting your comments on those forums, mentioning you as the source of the info.

Edited by OzKiwiJJ

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6 hours ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Chengkp75, thank you so much for explaining the AC system. There is so much fake news about this on Aussie FB cruise forums so I have taken the liberty of quoting your comments on those forums, mentioning you as the source of the info.

No worries.  The cabin AC keeps a slight positive pressure so that in the event of a fire, the air flows from the cabin out to the passageway, and smoke won't enter the cabin.  Public space AC is similar to the cabin system, with a fresh air supply and an exhaust, but the majority of the AC is recirculated, but again this is broken down by zones and spaces (no AC ducting ever crosses a fire zone boundary, each zone has it's own systems), so if infected persons are in the public spaces, their "air" will be recirculated in those public spaces.  However, the air handlers for these public spaces, along with the air handlers for the cabin fresh air supplies, all have sanitizing pads in the bottom to kill bacteria and viruses in the air duct systems.

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Thanks again, chengkp75. This is very important info for many people concerned about the transmission of illnesses on cruise ships.

 

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I’m not a health or science professional but I do have a food safety supervisor certification. 

 

In food prep and cleanup, in order to minimise the chance of contamination from any source (not just Coronavirus), there are multiple steps: washing/disinfecting and sanitising are the two involved with cleaning used dishes. As others have said, there are minimum dishwasher temperature requirements and times (it is 85°c in Australia, for a minimum of 2 minutes).

 

Current information (WHO data on the resistance and stability of the virus) says that 56°c for 15 minutes will kill it. Having said that, we still don’t know exactly how long it can remain active in droplets on hard surfaces at room temperature. 

New discoveries re the virus are being made every day.

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