Yikes! Over age 70 passengers need doctor’s note (Merged threads)

[downsmead]

It is interesting that in the first instance I think the cruise companies will need to rely on the ‘number of people willing to get back on a cruise ship‘. It is the new cruisers which they have been trying to attract recently, that they may have more trouble in persuading.

It is ironic, as has been pointed out a few times, that it is their existing customers that will possibly ‘see them through’ the return to cruising. That is supposing they haven’t alienated them with the refunds / FCC fiasco. 

[TeeRick]

21 hours ago, hcat said:

Wonder if  antibody test results will impact a physician's willingness to sign the over 70 form  ???

hcat- it is my opinion anyway that if antibody tests turn out to be available in large numbers, and are proven to show that SARS-CoV-2 antibodies are protective against reinfection for a large percentage of the population, then this entire issue with physician-signed medical forms (over 70+) will just go away.  I know I have stated this before so sorry for repeating myself.  Maybe for a few years cruise companies will require that we show an antibody test certificate regardless of age or health status.  Or maybe a vaccine certificate if one becomes widely available.

[Laurab23]

Is it 70 and older or older than 70? It says over 70 so if you are just 70 how does that work out?

 

Laura

[travelordie]

1 hour ago, Barcelona17 said:

Well. I think your just wrong. Statistics are now coming out from Europe and around the world that a large percentage (in many areas up to 50%) of deaths are being attributed to those in nursing homes. So what this form is going to accomplish is keeping nursing home patients from cruising (can't remember last time I met a nursing home resident on a cruise) and most of those over 70, healthy or not. It will do little to keep those with underlying illnesses from cruising and until a vaccine is produced cruising will not be safe and there will be deaths on cruise ships regardless of their silly form. I do think this policy is shortsighted and a poor attempt at avoiding liability, but perhaps we are better off. Regardless of all the fondness and loyalty being displayed on this site for cruising and the cruiselines....cruising is not safe and never will be until we have a vaccine and this virus is contained. Period. And no amount of proselytizing or manipulating statistics is going to change that.

In Canada, almost half the seniors who died were in long term care homes.  The remainder were not. Within Canada, the percentages were dramatically different from one province to another just as I'm sure they differ between one European country and another.  If you know what percentage of Italian seniors who died were in long term care homes, please post the statistics.   

 

The point remains that it is blatant age discrimination to require a physician's letter for cruisers who are 70 or older.  Sometimes governments make unfair decisions but in this case, it was the CLIA, the organization which represents most cruise lines, that came up with the absurd decision to ban travel for those 70 or older unless they can coerce their physician to sign a letter.

[Mark_T]

41 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Maybe for a few years cruise companies will require that we show an antibody test certificate regardless of age or health status.  Or maybe a vaccine certificate if one becomes widely available.

 

I'm not holding out hopes for an effective vaccine any time soon, and cruising only if you have already had the virus doesn't sound like much of an alternative either...

 

Sooner we give up trying to pretend we can protect everyone and allow herd immunity to build up, the sooner we can get back to whatever passes for 'normal' in the future.

 

It certainly will not be a cost free process, but neither is shutting down most economic activity for long periods either...

[shipshape sam]

13 hours ago, Denny01 said:

It gets a bit tough to continue with legit discussions with more than a few of the ‘conspiracy’ posts and the ‘no DR would ever sign this’ posts and so on, all based on squat....I‘ LL step away from those (although I just Love responding to such!), and try to think through the approach being taken by the Cruise Lines. I mean, Cruise Lines didn’t think this up: “Oh, how can I further ruin our business’ or some such approach. My view is, with COVID-19 not under full control, either with a vaccine distributed or the virus just ‘magically’ goes away and is a rare level (yeah, right), anyone with any level of higher risk shouldn’t consider joining any group above 10, let alone jump on a cruise ship, or for that matter go to DisneyWorld. So the form is, in my view, acts two-fold; 1 - it makes each of us to realistically look at our own level of risk, whether we are 70+ or whatever, and 2- for the established higher risk group of us Geezers, that we need a Dr to talk to us on how much risk we are at. 

 

And of course, the Form is there to be waved around by the Cruise LIne Lawyers.....see, we warned them!!! And in truth: They Did. 

 

So once most all of us (if not all) should truly consider going back to cruising is when a Vaccine is made available Or COVID is disappears. And this is posted by a guy who has an Oct 2020 cruise out of Europe back to the US. Just waiting that one out.

 

And think about it. The infection and death rate drop but it’s still there; the States open up more so I go jump on a cruise because a Dr signed some form....and one guy out of 2,000 with no symptoms, gets on board, or some woman goes shopping in the next port and bring ‘you-know-what!’ on board....and off to the races!

 

enough, Den 

 

 

I didn't take the form as an exclusion from getting Covid 19, but that a Dr has attested that passenger(his/her patient) is in a physical shape that would not (an assumption) put them in a situation to have a bad reaction (again an assumption as some 30 year olds for example have had bad cases) to exposure/getting the virus.  

 

With so many people, as now are being reported daily, that have had the virus with no symptoms, what cruise lines don't want is passengers, IF exposed and contracted, to require hospital care IMHO.

 

The form, one can argue is a notice to passenger and also a form for cruise lines to "wave around" of their protection by requiring form to be completed. similar to the forms we complete on excursions.

 

I am not sure at this point when I will feel comfortable about sailing again.  We get vaccines (at least that is the term used for it) for FLU. Have to get one each year as they (whoever is they that decides the make up of each years FLU shot) where as Measles was a one time shot.  Even so, I can still get the FLU. Most likely a milder form if I have taken that years FLU shot. They are still do not know about long term immunity, so.......

 

For me, I am not sure that the risk and (aggravation) vs. reward is going to be there anytime soon.  We go to Inlet Beach, FL which is close to Panama City Beach, FL beaches  and I can sit on the beach with my beer, my wife, kids, grandkids and friends and go out to dinner if we want to. We actually like to cook at the beach with our large groups.  We have great sunrises, sunsets, etc.  

[Barcelona17]

26 minutes ago, travelordie said:

In Canada, almost half the seniors who died were in long term care homes.  The remainder were not. Within Canada, the percentages were dramatically different from one province to another just as I'm sure they differ between one European country and another.  If you know what percentage of Italian seniors who died were in long term care homes, please post the statistics.   

 

The point remains that it is blatant age discrimination to require a physician's letter for cruisers who are 70 or older.  Sometimes governments make unfair decisions but in this case, it was the CLIA, the organization which represents most cruise lines, that came up with the absurd decision to ban travel for those 70 or older unless they can coerce their physician to sign a letter.

 

Just do a search on the web for "percent of virus deaths in Italian nursing homes" and you will get all sorts of articles and stats regarding Italian nursing homes. Percents, numbers, reasons, etc. change daily.

[travelordie]

37 minutes ago, Laurab23 said:

Is it 70 and older or older than 70? It says over 70 so if you are just 70 how does that work out?

 

Laura

It seems that the cruise lines can't agree on an answer.  Some cruise line websites state 70 and older whereas other cruise line websites say over 70.  Some even appear internally inconsistent.  The Azamara website states over 70 but the sample physician letter on the Azamara website states "70 or older".

[travelordie]

7 minutes ago, Barcelona17 said:

 

Just do a search on the web for "percent of virus deaths in Italian nursing homes" and you will get all sorts of articles and stats regarding Italian nursing homes. Percents, numbers, reasons, etc. change daily.

OK, I did a search.  Only 2% of Italian seniors live in nursing homes.  Most Italian deaths among seniors were not in nursing homes.

[bEwAbG]

You are 69 until the day you turn 70.  After you turn 70, you are over 70.  When you turn 21, you can start drinking because you are over 21.

[Denny01]

Agree  Sam. We’ll need to feel comfortable going into public crowds in or own locals before stepping back on. I may have overstated a bit on not cruising until there is a vaccine...just not sure at all what is smart. Risk assessment in the current world is tough.

 

Den

[Barcelona17]

5 minutes ago, travelordie said:

It seems that the cruise lines can't agree on an answer.  Some cruise line websites state 70 and older whereas other cruise line websites say over 70.  Some even appear internally inconsistent.  The Azamara website states over 70 but the sample physician letter on the Azamara website states "70 or older".

 

And does this instill confidence that the cruise lines have their act together and can keep us safe. Actually, I think, if the cruise lines are requiring our doctor to guarantee that we are healthy enough to travel safely...they should be prepared to guarantee all healthy passengers are safe and should have no concern about cruising. I would love to see that guarantee from cruise lines.

dcl 

 

[bEwAbG]

As previously stated, I think the purpose of the form is just as much to make cruisers really consider their personal situation.  People like to think they're immune to anything bad that can happen, but that's wishful thinking.  I know that even with controlled asthma, I am doing my best to follow the guidelines that are hopefully going to keep me from being one of those cases that end up in the hospital on a ventilator.  I certainly wouldn't want to be in the middle of the ocean and not able to breathe on my own in a facility that isn't equipped to keep me alive.  Why anyone would want to take that kind of known risk makes me question their sanity.  These are exigent circumstances.  It won't be this way forever but it is going to be this way for a while.  Some of the initial concerns are going to change as scientists figure it out.  That doesn't mean that it's all overblown and everything can be ignored because you have a gut feeling that people who are studying the disease just don't know what you know.

[helen haywood]

I started this thread.  When I did so it was before cruise lines had canceled cruises.  We had a booking sailing March 29 and my husband is 73.  My understanding of this form, at that time, was a stop gap measure to hopefully be able to continue to sail cruises back in March after the CLIA had met with VP Pence.  Has anyone definitive information that this form is going to be carried forward and become an iron standard?  Not that I know when cruising will resume, nor what it will be like, but I really don't see this form being a requirement down the road.  

[drakes2]

13 minutes ago, helen haywood said:

I started this thread.  When I did so it was before cruise lines had canceled cruises.  We had a booking sailing March 29 and my husband is 73.  My understanding of this form, at that time, was a stop gap measure to hopefully be able to continue to sail cruises back in March after the CLIA had met with VP Pence.  Has anyone definitive information that this form is going to be carried forward and become an iron standard?  Not that I know when cruising will resume, nor what it will be like, but I really don't see this form being a requirement down the road.  

I certainly hope not  I will be 70 by end of summer and although in excellent health wouldn't even think of asking my doctors to sign such a form. If the cruiselines keep this in place what happens to those guests with FCC's?  Is it then refunded to the original form of payment?

[Fouremco]

1 hour ago, Laurab23 said:

Is it 70 and older or older than 70? It says over 70 so if you are just 70 how does that work out?

 

Laura

For Celebrity, it is 70 or older. From the Fit To Sail form:

 

The above-noted patient is seventy years old or above and wishes to sail onboard a Celebrity Cruises cruise ship departing on ____________________________.

[Barcelona17]

28 minutes ago, travelordie said:

OK, I did a search.  Only 2% of Italian seniors live in nursing homes.  Most Italian deaths among seniors were not in nursing homes.

I won't dispute your figure, but it may not tell the whole story. There still appear to be a lot of deaths in the nursing homes throughout Europe, including Italy according to recent study at London School of Economics. They estimate in Italy, Spain, France, Ireland and Belgium between 42% and 57% of the virus deaths are in care homes. And you must realize many elderly deaths in Italy are seniors who in most countries would be in a care home. As you point out, Italy's system of taking care of the elderly is much more family based. Whatever the stats and numbers are..I think it is obvious this form and the associated policy is a red herring only implemented to make it appear the cruise lines are addressing the issue, however superficially.

 

dc l

 

[markeb]

1 hour ago, Mark_T said:

 

I'm not holding out hopes for an effective vaccine any time soon, and cruising only if you have already had the virus doesn't sound like much of an alternative either...

 

Sooner we give up trying to pretend we can protect everyone and allow herd immunity to build up, the sooner we can get back to whatever passes for 'normal' in the future.

 

It certainly will not be a cost free process, but neither is shutting down most economic activity for long periods either...

There is so far only an unproven assumption of lasting immunity. We are about to have several natural experiments and I guess we’ll see what happens. if the virus re-emerges in the presence of positive IgG antibody tests from apparent natural infections, then...

[hcat]

14 minutes ago, drakes2 said:

I certainly hope not  I will be 70 by end of summer and although in excellent health wouldn't even think of asking my doctors to sign such a form. If the cruiselines keep this in place what happens to those guests with FCC's?  Is it then refunded to the original form of payment?

That is  one of the issues that may lie ahead.

 

We jumped the gun and cancelled Summit before X cancelled our cruise.  Our deal was in the cancellation penalty  period so  we  received a 50% refund and 50% fcc but we were not informed about any note that would be  needed to use the fcc

 

Hope we can use it .but if  we can't due to the fit to cruise issue, I think we will be out of luck. Too many fccs out there held by those over 70, for the cruise line to exchange  them for money .

 

So we  kiss goodbye a  few thousand dollars for making a bad choice.. But in the long run we will save many thousands that we would have spent on cruising going forward.

 

Younger healthier cruisers can always fill the ships in our place.

[Fouremco]

33 minutes ago, drakes2 said:

I certainly hope not  I will be 70 by end of summer and although in excellent health wouldn't even think of asking my doctors to sign such a form. If the cruiselines keep this in place what happens to those guests with FCC's?  Is it then refunded to the original form of payment?

Personally, I don't think that they'll be cruising again until such time as the form is no longer required. But if they do restart sooner than expected, then we need to look at what their current rules say: if you can't get a note and therefore can't board, you get an FCC, not a refund. That being the case, I can't see them allowing you to cash in an existing FCC for a refund. As we are sitting on several thousand dollars in FCC, but know that no doctor would sign our forms, I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see Celebrity loosening its purse strings. 

[travelordie]

31 minutes ago, Barcelona17 said:

Whatever the stats and numbers are..I think it is obvious this form and the associated policy is a red herring only implemented to make it appear the cruise lines are addressing the issue, however superficially.

 

dc l

 

I agree with your conclusion.  Also, let's not forget that when the cruise lines proposed this age-discriminatory policy to VP Pence, they hoped that the US government would bail them out as they bailed out major US airlines.  Since there was no bailout of the cruise industry, the industry now has less incentive to implement this discriminatory policy.  A 65 year old cruiser with cardiovascular issues, diabetes, obesity and respiratory issues is at far greater risk of acquiring COVID-19 than a healthy 70 year old.

[drakes2]

20 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Personally, I don't think that they'll be cruising again until such time as the form is no longer required. But if they do restart sooner than expected, then we need to look at what their current rules say: if you can't get a note and therefore can't board, you get an FCC, not a refund. That being the case, I can't see them allowing you to cash in an existing FCC for a refund. As we are sitting on several thousand dollars in FCC, but know that no doctor would sign our forms, I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't see Celebrity loosening its purse strings. 

You are probably right although they won't fill their ships unless they offer rock bottom prices. I can always fly to Europe next year or later and take a river cruise with fewer passengers. 

[Fouremco]

4 minutes ago, drakes2 said:

You are probably right although they won't fill their ships unless they offer rock bottom prices. I can always fly to Europe next year or later and take a river cruise with fewer passengers. 

Have you followed any of the river cruise boards? I haven't at all, and have no idea what the chatter is there and the feeling about their restarts.

[Mark_T]

1 hour ago, markeb said:

There is so far only an unproven assumption of lasting immunity. We are about to have several natural experiments and I guess we’ll see what happens. if the virus re-emerges in the presence of positive IgG antibody tests from apparent natural infections, then...

 

We don't even need lasting immunity though.

 

Yes, it would be ideal of course, but it would be sufficient to have greatly reduced symptoms and reduced probability of transfer to others, and so far what evidence their is tends to suggest this is more likely than not.

 

The doubts over this seem to come mostly from a limited number of cases of reinfection in South Korea, but there is no clarity on how reliable those reports really are at this point.

 

So yes, we will see what happens...

[Momma Rene]

If you bought the cruise before the doctor's note was required AND you paid for insurance, do you get your insurance money returned?  Our cruise is in December and final payment is in August.  I am thinking a LOT of people are in our situation, however, I cannot find an answer anywhere including my travel agent.  My travel agent said he MAY be able to move it to a land excursion.  I'm so frustrated.  Forgive the all caps.  We paid nearly $800 in insurance money.