Yikes! Over age 70 passengers need doctor’s note (Merged threads)

[4774Papa]

3 minutes ago, llawrence said:

As an attorney do you think it violates federal law by discriminating against adults 70 and over.?  I would think the cruise lines would need to have all passengers fill out a “fit ti cruise” letter. That would really cut into the cruise lines bottom line.

I handled discrimination cases for the Federal Government for three years.  Won all my cases.  Many people file discrimination cases and lose.  Yes, someone could file a case.  However, if the Doctor's note requirement is based on valid concerns, I don't see why it would violate the law.   I have done 20 ocean cruises and most were 11-15 day cruises.  The vast majority of people on the cruises were Seniors.  Do you really think cruise lines don't want Seniors on their cruises?   With this virus still around, they don't want high risk cruisers.  If the doctor's note screens the older cruisers that have underlying medical conditions, no problem.  

[4774Papa]

10 minutes ago, UnorigionalName said:

 

Isn't age only a protected class when it comes to employment?  Don't think it legally applies here at all.

 

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm

 

[drakes2]

8 minutes ago, llawrence said:

I really don’t know...hoping someone knows....I think it will be challenged as it begins to affect more cruisers.   

Well as it stands no one has actually embarked on a cruise so far with a fit to travel note.  Most likely a temporary measure.

[llawrence]

Why wouldn’t those concerns also apply to younger people with chronic conditions.

I have several friends that have more serious conditions then I do...they are more at risk ,but would not be required to have a note....if everyone had to show fit to cruise I would be fine....i believe if you trace the age of many passengers that got coved on the cruises, many would be in their 50’s and 60’s

[Fouremco]

37 minutes ago, llawrence said:

Why wouldn’t those concerns also apply to younger people with chronic conditions.

I have several friends that have more serious conditions then I do...they are more at risk ,but would not be required to have a note....if everyone had to show fit to cruise I would be fine....i believe if you trace the age of many passengers that got coved on the cruises, many would be in their 50’s and 60’s

Statistically, those 70+ with these conditions have a higher mortality rate. According to the CDC, 8 out of 10 deaths reported in the U.S. have been in adults 65 years old and older. Why Celebrity went with 70 instead of 65 is open to speculation.

 

Celebrity's lower level of concern for younger passengers with chronic conditions is reflected in the health questionnaire to be filled out by all passengers. Question 3 asks:

 

Are you (or anyone listed above) known to suffer or are you under treatment for any chronic heart, lung, liver or kidney disease OR are under treatment for any illness known to lower your immune system competence (e.g. diabetes, HIV/AIDS, cancer)?

 

Whereas a 70+ can't get their form signed if they suffer from one of these conditions, the general health questionnaire for younger passenger goes on to state:

(If you answered “Yes” to any question(s), you will be assessed free of charge by a member of our shipboard medical staff. You will be permitted to travel, unless you are suspected to have an illness of international public health concern)

 

 

[hcat]

Probably not going to be worth the hassles anymore!

 

[Laurab23]

Before Covid 19 I never considered my high blood pressure (controlled with medicine) a chronic heart disease, I thought if it was controlled it was not a problem.

 

Laur

[llawrence]

Laurab23........neither did I......been cruising with it for 10 years.

[Fouremco]

9 minutes ago, Laurab23 said:

Before Covid 19 I never considered my high blood pressure (controlled with medicine) a chronic heart disease, I thought if it was controlled it was not a problem.

 

Laur

 

"Chronic" pertains to the longevity of the disease, not its severity. Your blood pressure can be in the normal range when controlled by meds, but the disease is no less chronic.

 

7 minutes ago, llawrence said:

Laurab23........neither did I......been cruising with it for 10 years.

 

But never with COVID-19 threatening.

[llawrence]

But with SARS and MERS......

[luv2travel90266]

My doctor that I sent the Celebrity health letter was uncomfortable of the liability  of signing. I'm 70 and feel I'm in excellent health with meds controlling  blood pressure and cholesterol.  I can't however with what I know today see myself getting on a cruise, go to the theater or a sit down restaurant  till a vaccine is available.  The risk is too high. 

[baldilocks]

5 hours ago, 4774Papa said:

I do not agree.   No cruise line is going to sue physicians for signing such a document.  I am a retired attorney that once did personal injury cases.  Never did Medical Malpractice cases, but referred them to big firms.   Some states even have laws that allow defendants to sue those plaintiffs that file frivolous lawsuits against them.    

 

See above comment by a physician about the note and possible liability.

[bEwAbG]

This from a daily digest in the Washington Post was interesting news today, especially several parts of the second paragraph:

 

In New York’s largest hospital system, 88 percent of coronavirus patients on ventilators didn’t make it. 

“A paper published in the journal JAMA about New York State’s largest health system suggests a reality that, like so much else about the novel coronavirus, confounds our early expectations,” Ariana reports. “Researchers found that 20 percent of all those hospitalized died — a finding that’s similar to the percentage who perish in normal times among those who are admitted for respiratory distress. But the numbers diverge more for the critically ill put on ventilators. Eighty-eight percent of the 320 covid-19 patients on ventilators who were tracked in the study died. That compares with the roughly 80 percent of patients who died on ventilators before the pandemic, according to previous studies — and with the roughly 50 percent death rate some critical care doctors had optimistically hoped when the first cases were diagnosed. … 

 

"The paper also found that of those who died, 57 percent had hypertension, 41 percent were obese and 34 percent had diabetes which is consistent with risk factors listed by the [CDC]. Noticeably absent from the top of the list was asthma. As doctors and researchers have learned more about covid-19, the less it seems that asthma plays a dominant role in outcomes. One other surprising finding from the study was that 70 percent of the patients sick enough to be admitted to the hospital did not have a fever. Fever is currently listed as the top symptom of covid-19 by the CDC, and for weeks, many testing centers for the virus turned away patients if they did not have one.”

 

Link to full story, though it may be behind a paywall:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/22/coronavirus-ventilators-survival/

[llawrence]

Most people on this thread have been very helpful....I am upset about this “  fit to cruise letter” as it may end our cruising forever.......but will it really matter in the end.....if someone over 70 gets ill or someone in their 30’s gets ill with a respiratory illness ..the result is the same for the ship.......no ports and adrift at sea....the older person may have a worst outcome .....that’s a chance we all take when we board....Thanks again for all the replies...

[4774Papa]

9 hours ago, luv2travel90266 said:

My doctor that I sent the Celebrity health letter was uncomfortable of the liability  of signing. I'm 70 and feel I'm in excellent health with meds controlling  blood pressure and cholesterol.  I can't however with what I know today see myself getting on a cruise, go to the theater or a sit down restaurant  till a vaccine is available.  The risk is too high. 

Personally, I will not cruise until there is a vaccine, or herd immunity is apparent.   Next cruise we have is Oct 2021. I agree that cruising anytime soon is not wise.   If the Doctor's Note is required after vaccine, I don't see cruise lines suing doctors.

[Wine-O]

Those waiting for a vaccine will probably never cruise again.  They are still looking for a vaccine for aids.  We get a flu shot every year, but people still get the flu.  🍷

[d9704011]

32 minutes ago, llawrence said:

Most people on this thread have been very helpful....I am upset about this “  fit to cruise letter” as it may end our cruising forever.......but will it really matter in the end.....if someone over 70 gets ill or someone in their 30’s gets ill with a respiratory illness ..the result is the same for the ship.......no ports and adrift at sea....the older person may have a worst outcome .....that’s a chance we all take when we board....Thanks again for all the replies...

The part where you wrote ‘result is the same for the ship.... no ports and adrift at sea...’ seems a little limited to me.

 

Here is an extract from the Canadian Daily Epi Update for April 23....

 

Case severity by age group and by gender is presented in Figure 5 and Figure 6, respectively.
 Of cases ≥ 60 years of age, 36% have required hospitalization and 9% have been admitted to the ICU.
o Cases70to79yearolds have been hospitalized at the highest percentage (43%j and admitted to the ICU at the highest percentage (13%).

 

So, I think there is also the potential burden of having to care (or find a hospital) for people who may become seriously ill and the early data suggests that issue is most prevalent among people 70+.
 

[llawrence]

I understand what you are saying but the severity of the ill passengers was not what kept the ships out of ports....just the idea of a respiratory illness made ports close their docks..   That probably will not change..regardless of a cruisers age.   This is truly a difficult situation.  One case of Norvo could do the same thing.....trust was lost between port authorities and the cruise lines . There is no simple answer. 

[gerelmx]

Non US Citizens need an American Doctor?

[travelordie]

7 minutes ago, gerelmx said:

Non US Citizens need an American Doctor?

Where does it say that?

[llawrence]

I have been on many cruises where Americans have needed doctors in various countries...thinking about cruisers that rent motorbikes in Asia and Bermuda...I have seen accidents on board that have required airlifting to local hospitals....I understand this is different.....I am not debating that.....going back to this thread...age seems to be the issue....that is what I am challenging.   Making it difficult for 70 + to cruise will not solve the problem. In North Carolina, as of this morning.....40% + of the cases are under 50.   So the illness will still exist and has the potential of still causing the same problems on the ship.

[gerelmx]

30 minutes ago, travelordie said:

Where does it say that?

 

Therefore, effective Monday, March 16th, boarding will be denied to any person age 70 or older, at the time of embarkation, unless the guest provides written verification from a qualified treating physician that certifies the person has no severe, chronic medical condition and is fit to travel.

[hcat]

16 hours ago, 4774Papa said:

I handled discrimination cases for the Federal Government for three years.  Won all my cases.  Many people file discrimination cases and lose.  Yes, someone could file a case.  However, if the Doctor's note requirement is based on valid concerns, I don't see why it would violate the law.   I have done 20 ocean cruises and most were 11-15 day cruises.  The vast majority of people on the cruises were Seniors.  Do you really think cruise lines don't want Seniors on their cruises?   With this virus still around, they don't want high risk cruisers.  If the doctor's note screens the older cruisers that have underlying medical conditions, no problem.  

 

What about a challenge to an administrative regulation (CDC)   claiming that it was arbitrary and capricious...enacted without evidence of  the valid concerns cited above?  Almost a sure loser  but curious!

[llawrence]

How about a HIPAA challenge.....requiring the form is making my doctor say that I am well (signing) or unwell (not signing) .   My doctor can’t even tell my daughter about my health without a HIPAA form... just curious....In reading the HIPAA act it doesn’t state how in-depth the info has to be.

[cruise47]

How many in the seventy age group booked  the high end cabins sky suites and above and spend their dollars in the casino? Does the cruise industry want to lose this money.