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Ruby Princess arrival yesterday IMPORTANT

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I am from NSW Australia and this police investigation stinks of a government ordered cover up to make Princess the scapegoat for their negligence.

 

I think we need a higher level of investigation to determine the following:

 

Bear in mind prior to this cruise Princess was already cancelling cruises all around the world out of precaution. Caribbean Princess and Grand Princes to name a few.

 

1. As was reported the ship did not sail on the 8th March until NSW Health gave it the all-clear. Was there State or Federal Government intervention on behalf of a large unnamed religious group with political influence sailing on that 8th March voyage to pressure or force authorities to give that ship permission to sail. Note that at this date Princess had already cancelled Grand Princess, Caribbean Princess and Diamond Princess sailings. They were acting above and beyond.

2. Were there passengers on the 24th February or 8th March sailing on Ruby Princess who were either the parents or in-laws or closely associated with the parents or in-laws of a senior Federal Government Minister.

3. Was there and State or Federal Government intervention to allow the passengers of Ruby Princess to disembark the ship early on its return to Sydney despite ambulances taking passengers and suspected cases of the virus originating from china on board the ship.

4. Did any passenger on the ship who may have been connected politically receive the contact details of people or departments in the NSW government to pull strings to allow that ship to disembark the passengers early.

 

We must remember here that Princess fully cooperated in Japan with the Diamond Princess. They knew how serious this was. They had recalled the Caribbean Princess over a noro-virus outbreak and paused the operation of the Grand Princess and then on the 12th March announced a pause of all ships in their fleet for 60 days. They knew things were getting serious and were ready to pull the pin on cruises. They were probably planning this for days or weeks and it is inevitable the 8th March sailing would have been recalled early. Princess was probably not that desperate to send the Ruby Princess out at all costs.

 

We need an independent and impartial investigation into what went wrong and whether there is a government attempt to cover this up.

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16 hours ago, DiamondFour said:

I am from NSW Australia and this police investigation stinks of a government ordered cover up to make Princess the scapegoat for their negligence.

 

 

Thank you for posting.   That is a different and interesting point of view.

 

I'm sure I'll be fried for posting this...

 

But, Princess didn't mix up some covid-19 in the galley, and sprinkle it on passengers during a balloon drop.

 

A person infected with covid-19 came onboard;

and we have now all learned ... cruise ships are excellent incubators;

so the one person was able to infect many.

 

Could have been a passenger, or a crew member.

 

Ship was sailing round trip from Sydney, so I presume that the majority of passengers were from Australia.

 

I wonder if, at some point in the future, it will be possible to trace this back to patient zero.

 

 

And, back when I was a kid, there were pox parties -- where kids intentionally socialized with others who were sick.

It was either thought that the childhood disease was less severe that the adult disease, or

there was something ... which I can't quite remember ... which they hoped to infect young ladies with,

so that they would have imunity during pregnancy.

 

If only, at that time, we had known how effective cruise ships were!!!

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Australians may have different opinions as to what actually happened. Being from NSW doesn't make one more expert than another. We will need to wait until a timeline of emails and phones are investigated as to what actually happened here. I'm not prepared to call the blame on anyone just yet. I'll wait for facts. 
 

I do think that no cruiseline could ever safely detect whether a passenger has the virus on embarkation, and given the virulence of Covid, at that point cruises should have been cancelled. World wide. 
 

We did know, because of Princess Diamond, of the risk that being on a cruiseline entailed with this virus. We cannot say we didn't know. 

Edited by Pushka

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32 minutes ago, Pushka said:

I do think that no cruiseline could ever safely detect whether a passenger has the virus on embarkation

 

The US CDC says that at least 25% of the people infected with covid-19 have no symptoms,

are unaware they are infected, but are completely capable of infecting others.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic-transmission.html

 

Checking someone's temperature at embarcation is little guarantee of safety.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Roberto256 said:

 

The US CDC says that at least 25% of the people infected with covid-19 have no symptoms,

are unaware they are infected, but are completely capable of infecting others.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/health/coronavirus-asymptomatic-transmission.html

 

Checking someone's temperature at embarcation is little guarantee of safety.

 

 


Yes, exactly. Once that was known and it was known early, then cruises just weren't safe anymore. 

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6 hours ago, Roberto256 said:

 

Thank you for posting.   That is a different and interesting point of view.

 

I'm sure I'll be fried for posting this...

 

But, Princess didn't mix up some covid-19 in the galley, and sprinkle it on passengers during a balloon drop.

 

A person infected with covid-19 came onboard;

and we have now all learned ... cruise ships are excellent incubators;

so the one person was able to infect many.

 

Could have been a passenger, or a crew member.

 

Ship was sailing round trip from Sydney, so I presume that the majority of passengers were from Australia.

 

I wonder if, at some point in the future, it will be possible to trace this back to patient zero.

 

 

And, back when I was a kid, there were pox parties -- where kids intentionally socialized with others who were sick.

It was either thought that the childhood disease was less severe that the adult disease, or

there was something ... which I can't quite remember ... which they hoped to infect young ladies with,

so that they would have imunity during pregnancy.

 

If only, at that time, we had known how effective cruise ships were!!!

 

 

 

The Ruby Princess was attracting international passengers from Britain, Europe and America as well as majority Australians. By the time the virus was taken onto the ship (probably by a passenger) our borders were closed to people from china and passing through mainland china. 

 

I kind of disagree with the statement about cruise ships "only" being incubators for viruses. They are no different to your average shopping mall, cinema, pub, tavern, restaurant, massage/beauty parlour, barber shop, hotel, swimming pool. There are more people traffic by day at land based institutions than the safety of a cruise ship if it is not infected.

 

Ruby Princess was safe in our waters since at least October last year and far away from the virus that originated in china.

 

The fact is this is not Ruby Princess or the companies fault. How were they to know that the virus would make it on the ship so far away and with protections in place at the Australian border. Our government and border protection stuffed up. the WHO stuffed up by sitting idly. Other governments stuffed up. It is unfair to make Princess or Ruby Princess the scapegoat.

 

The police investigation in NSW is one sided and corrupt as their scope of investigation has not been permitted to investigate government ministers or departments. How can anything be fair and impartial if it does not look at all the culprits.

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21 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

The Ruby Princess was attracting international passengers from Britain, Europe and America as well as majority Australians. By the time the virus was taken onto the ship (probably by a passenger) our borders were closed to people from china and passing through mainland china. 

 

I kind of disagree with the statement about cruise ships "only" being incubators for viruses. They are no different to your average shopping mall, cinema, pub, tavern, restaurant, massage/beauty parlour, barber shop, hotel, swimming pool. There are more people traffic by day at land based institutions than the safety of a cruise ship if it is not infected.

 

Ruby Princess was safe in our waters since at least October last year and far away from the virus that originated in china.

 

The fact is this is not Ruby Princess or the companies fault. How were they to know that the virus would make it on the ship so far away and with protections in place at the Australian border. Our government and border protection stuffed up. the WHO stuffed up by sitting idly. Other governments stuffed up. It is unfair to make Princess or Ruby Princess the scapegoat.

 

The police investigation in NSW is one sided and corrupt as their scope of investigation has not been permitted to investigate government ministers or departments. How can anything be fair and impartial if it does not look at all the culprits.

How can you say it is a “fact” ? We don’t know the facts. The accusation is not based on whether they knew they had the virus it is whether they reported their correct status around illness onboard the ship. 

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Posted (edited)

Cruise ships are completely different to any other kind of large gatherings, except it seems weddings where everyone kisses everyone else and some religious gatherings where similar close contacts may happen.

 

Even planes are different - people dont touch each other, dont have long conversations with your 1000 new best friends, dont sit in the same seats as others, dont share tables, and dont share the same space for days on end.

 

And whether some like it or not, Princess has been far in advance, the one cruiseline that has had more illness and deaths than any other cruiseline. If Princess/Carnival do not address that, determine why, well, no more Princess ships for me.

Edited by Pushka

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, teamflames said:

How can you say it is a “fact” ? We don’t know the facts. The accusation is not based on whether they knew they had the virus it is whether they reported their correct status around illness onboard the ship. 

 

No flaming from me. This is exactly the truth. 

Edited by Pushka

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Here is the NSW Health Department report. It explains why they cleared the Ruby Princess for disembarkation and does not blame the cruise line.

Ruby Princess update

03 April 2020

To date there have been 342 confirmed cases of COVID-19 diagnosed in NSW in passengers who all acquired their infection while on, or in some cases, possibly before boarding the Ruby Princess cruise.

Transmission of COVID-19 amongst these passengers could not have been prevented by NSW Health staff. No cases of COVID-19 were identified on board the ship before it docked.

The vast majority of these passengers reported they did not develop symptoms until after leaving the Ruby Princess.

All passengers were advised to self-isolate for 14 days following disembarkation, which NSW Health has confirmed was provided by the Federal Department of Agriculture, Water and Environment.

Probable secondary transmission has been limited to 11 confirmed cases as of 3 April.

International experience shows COVID-19 can rapidly spread among passengers if left on board, so self-isolation at home is a much safer option than leaving passengers on board.

NSW Health had prepared plans in the event COVID-19 being identified on a cruise ship.

On this particular voyage, it was known that influenza activity had been identified on the ship.

The Ruby Princess was assessed as low risk, based on the level of illness on board, the negative COVID-19 tests done on passengers while in New Zealand, and the positive influenza tests done on a large proportion of the passengers with influenza like illness.

The risk assessment process recognised that there is no “no risk” setting for COVID-19, but balanced the level of risk against the benefit of removing passengers from a cruise ship on which the virus could be circulating.

Rapid influenza tests identify only a proportion of people who actually have the infection, meaning some people return a negative result even though they are infected with the flu. The illness and test results identified on board was consistent with influenza.

This is reflected in email correspondence between NSW Health and the ship’s doctor on the Ruby Princess who confirmed influenza was circulating on the cruise. However, in two sick patients referenced in the email, although they had tested negative to influenza, the cause of their respiratory infection was consistent with influenza for which they were receiving treatment.

The reasons for ambulance transport requested by the treating doctor to NSW Health’s assessment panel, were, one passenger had a heart condition likely caused by an infection which was responding to influenza treatment, and the second passenger was suffering severe lower back pain but was also receiving treatment for flu.

Under the Commonwealth Department of Health cruise protocols, an ILI outbreak is defined when ‘more than one per cent of the ships total passengers and crew have an influenza like illness’.

The Ruby Princess had 2647 passengers and 1148 crew. The ship reported to NSW Health there were 104 acute respiratory infections of which 36 people had presented to the ship’s clinic with influenza like illness during the cruise and its numbers fell short of the definition of an ‘outbreak’.

The Commonwealth Department of Health protocol on managing novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19 risk from cruise ship) states “provided there are no concerns about the COVID-19 risk profile of the ship or suspected COVID-19 cases reported …the ship may be allowed to continue voyage while samples are tested”.

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2 hours ago, Pushka said:

Australians may have different opinions as to what actually happened. Being from NSW doesn't make one more expert than another. We will need to wait until a timeline of emails and phones are investigated as to what actually happened here. I'm not prepared to call the blame on anyone just yet. I'll wait for facts. 
 

I do think that no cruiseline could ever safely detect whether a passenger has the virus on embarkation, and given the virulence of Covid, at that point cruises should have been cancelled. World wide. 
 

We did know, because of Princess Diamond, of the risk that being on a cruiseline entailed with this virus. We cannot say we didn't know. 

I agree that COVID could not be detected on passengers before boarding.

 

Four days after the Ruby Princess left Sydney, Princess announced their pause in cruises. Out of all their cruises that were under way at the time (probably 16 cruises), only the Ruby had a significant outbreak. 

 

When we went on the Sea Princess exactly 14 days earlier, in our cabin there was a two-page information hand-out from the Australian Government Health Department.

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I agree with many of the comments made by Roberto256 and by DiamondFour (but maybe not all the comments!).

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Four days after the Ruby Princess left Sydney, Princess announced their pause in cruises. Out of all their cruises that were under way at the time (probably 16 cruises), only the Ruby had a significant outbreak. 

 

Don't forget about the Coral Princess which was also underway at the time; 3 have died and many are now hospitalized in South Florida.  Some passengers are still on the ship waiting for charter flights and others will have to stay on board for a mandated quarantine. More details below.

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article241809556.html

Edited by bluesea321

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2 minutes ago, bluesea321 said:

 

Don't forget about the Coral Princess which was also underway at the time; 3 have died and many are now hospitalized in South Florida.  Some passengers are still on the ship waiting for charter flights and others will have to stay on board for a mandated quarantine. More details below.

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/tourism-cruises/article241809556.html

Sorry, I forgot the Coral. From the timing of the infections on that ship, it appears that the virus was contracted while the ship was docked in Buenos Aires. Some passengers were bused to the airport, but missed their flight and had to return to the ship. In addition, local authorities came onto the ship. I am glad that the outbreak on the Coral remained limited.🙂

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28 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Here is the NSW Health Department report. It explains why they cleared the Ruby Princess for disembarkation and does not blame the cruise line.

Ruby Princess update

03 April 2020

To date there have been 342 confirmed cases of COVID-19 diagnosed in NSW in passengers who all acquired their infection while on, or in some cases, possibly before boarding the Ruby Princess cruise.

Transmission of COVID-19 amongst these passengers could not have been prevented by NSW Health staff. No cases of COVID-19 were identified on board the ship before it docked.

The vast majority of these passengers reported they did not develop symptoms until after leaving the Ruby Princess.

All passengers were advised to self-isolate for 14 days following disembarkation, which NSW Health has confirmed was provided by the Federal Department of Agriculture, Water and Environment.

Probable secondary transmission has been limited to 11 confirmed cases as of 3 April.

International experience shows COVID-19 can rapidly spread among passengers if left on board, so self-isolation at home is a much safer option than leaving passengers on board.

NSW Health had prepared plans in the event COVID-19 being identified on a cruise ship.

On this particular voyage, it was known that influenza activity had been identified on the ship.

The Ruby Princess was assessed as low risk, based on the level of illness on board, the negative COVID-19 tests done on passengers while in New Zealand, and the positive influenza tests done on a large proportion of the passengers with influenza like illness.

The risk assessment process recognised that there is no “no risk” setting for COVID-19, but balanced the level of risk against the benefit of removing passengers from a cruise ship on which the virus could be circulating.

Rapid influenza tests identify only a proportion of people who actually have the infection, meaning some people return a negative result even though they are infected with the flu. The illness and test results identified on board was consistent with influenza.

This is reflected in email correspondence between NSW Health and the ship’s doctor on the Ruby Princess who confirmed influenza was circulating on the cruise. However, in two sick patients referenced in the email, although they had tested negative to influenza, the cause of their respiratory infection was consistent with influenza for which they were receiving treatment.

The reasons for ambulance transport requested by the treating doctor to NSW Health’s assessment panel, were, one passenger had a heart condition likely caused by an infection which was responding to influenza treatment, and the second passenger was suffering severe lower back pain but was also receiving treatment for flu.

Under the Commonwealth Department of Health cruise protocols, an ILI outbreak is defined when ‘more than one per cent of the ships total passengers and crew have an influenza like illness’.

The Ruby Princess had 2647 passengers and 1148 crew. The ship reported to NSW Health there were 104 acute respiratory infections of which 36 people had presented to the ship’s clinic with influenza like illness during the cruise and its numbers fell short of the definition of an ‘outbreak’.

The Commonwealth Department of Health protocol on managing novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19 risk from cruise ship) states “provided there are no concerns about the COVID-19 risk profile of the ship or suspected COVID-19 cases reported …the ship may be allowed to continue voyage while samples are tested”.

Thanks for sharing. So 104 ACUTE respiratory cases constitutes low risk, wow I would hate to see what constitutes moderate? 🤷‍♂️😷😡

clearly trying to cover their ineptitude. I can’t help but think they just didn’t know what to do - the concept of using hotels as quarantine came after this incident

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12 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

Sorry, I forgot the Coral. From the timing of the infections on that ship, it appears that the virus was contracted while the ship was docked in Buenos Aires. Some passengers were bused to the airport, but missed their flight and had to return to the ship. In addition, local authorities came onto the ship. I am glad that the outbreak on the Coral remained limited.🙂

And the Golden Princess has a noro outbreak during this time. 

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1 hour ago, teamflames said:

How can you say it is a “fact” ? We don’t know the facts. The accusation is not based on whether they knew they had the virus it is whether they reported their correct status around illness onboard the ship. 

We do know a lot of the facts. Late last week the NSW Health Minister accused the Captain of the Ruby of 'lying' about the illness on board. The NSW Premier repeated the allegation, but not quite so directly. Princess then sent to the Premier's Department copies of the emails (between the ship and the Health Department) that were sent the day before arriving in Sydney. The Premier then said that there was "no point in pointing the blaming anyone". A change of tune.

 

Princess then sent the emails to the Australian media. These are publicly available.  Officers on the ship did not hide anything. NSW Health assessed the ship at "low risk". In normal circumstances that would have been a reasonable conclusion, but with the current pandemic, the world is not in normal circumstances.

 

So the stage was set for a large-scale infection that spread around Australia and overseas.

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1 hour ago, teamflames said:

How can you say it is a “fact” ? We don’t know the facts. The accusation is not based on whether they knew they had the virus it is whether they reported their correct status around illness onboard the ship. 

How can you declare an illness on board if the passengers do not report it through fear of being quarantined?

 

How can you declare you have specifically the virus from china on board when you do not have the testing kits for it?

 

The cruise ship declared everything. If you are unable to test for a specific virus you are unable to declare that you have it.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Aus Traveller said:

To date there have been 342 confirmed cases of COVID-19 diagnosed in NSW in passengers who all acquired their infection while on, or in some cases, possibly before boarding the Ruby Princess cruise.

I just want to extract this piece of information and then quote from the NSW government website that states there are 2637 cases in total at time of writing in NSW. Also an extraction below from teh same site.

ame Date of first onset LGA of event Last case within 14 days Cases 1 Local transmission?
Stanwell Tops Wedding 9 March 2020 Wollongong Yes 38 Yes
Boogie Wonderland Party 17 March 2020 Waverley Yes 34 Yes
Dorothy Henderson Lodge 24 February 2020 Ryde Yes 22 Yes
Church meeting 8 March 2020 Ryde Yes 19 Yes
Bondi Hardware Restaurant 17 March 2020 Waverley Yes 14 Yes
Rose of Sharon Childcare 18 March 2020 Blacktown Yes 6 Yes
Opal Aged Care Bankstown 22 March 2020 Canterbury- Bankstown Yes 4 Yes
Normanhurst West Public School 8 March 2020 Hornsby Yes 3 Yes
St Andrews’ Church Wedding 16 March 2020 Sydney Yes 3 Yes
Rugby tournament 15 March 2020 Camperdown Yes 2 Yes
Pokolbin Wedding 16 March 2020 Cessnock Yes 2 Yes

 

I think what all of us passionate about cruising are trying to ask is why is the Ruby Princess being vilified so much. Princess was honest and transparent.

 

The cruise should have been cancelled.

 

 

 

 

Edited by DiamondFour

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1 hour ago, teamflames said:

How can you say it is a “fact” ? We don’t know the facts. The accusation is not based on whether they knew they had the virus it is whether they reported their correct status around illness onboard the ship. 

The emails between the ship and NSW Health prove that the ship reported their correct status of illness aboard the ship - as far as they knew. Without testing kits and a lab that could process them, the medical centre on the ship did not know they had COVID on board. After the negative tests were returned four days earlier in Wellington, I think it was reasonable for the officers on the ship to believe they were free of COVID-19. We now know they weren't.

 

I wish, I wish, I wish, that NSW Health had delayed the disembarkation until they had conducted the tests on swabs supplied by the medical centre of the ship. From memory, there were four or five positive cases out of 15 swabs. Once COVID was detected on board, the ship and its passengers would have been treated differently. All passengers who were not ill would have been placed in quarantine.

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3 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

I just want to extract this piece of information and then quote from the NSW government website that states there are 2637 cases in total at time of writing in NSW. Also an extraction below from teh same site.

ame Date of first onset LGA of event Last case within 14 days Cases 1 Local transmission?
Stanwell Tops Wedding 9 March 2020 Wollongong Yes 38 Yes
Boogie Wonderland Party 17 March 2020 Waverley Yes 34 Yes
Dorothy Henderson Lodge 24 February 2020 Ryde Yes 22 Yes
Church meeting 8 March 2020 Ryde Yes 19 Yes
Bondi Hardware Restaurant 17 March 2020 Waverley Yes 14 Yes
Rose of Sharon Childcare 18 March 2020 Blacktown Yes 6 Yes
Opal Aged Care Bankstown 22 March 2020 Canterbury- Bankstown Yes 4 Yes
Normanhurst West Public School 8 March 2020 Hornsby Yes 3 Yes
St Andrews’ Church Wedding 16 March 2020 Sydney Yes 3 Yes
Rugby tournament 15 March 2020 Camperdown Yes 2 Yes
Pokolbin Wedding 16 March 2020 Cessnock Yes 2 Yes

For people not familiar with the places mentioned above:

  • Stanwell Tops wedding was a 'society' wedding - 38 infections.
  • I think that the Boogie Wonderland Party and the Bondi Hardware Restaurant, had young 'backpackers' partying in contravention of the social distancing rules and the rules on the number of people at any one venue - total 48.
  • Dorothy Henderson Lodge is an aged care facility - 22 infections.
  • Church meeting. Church of Christ meeting at Ryde Civic Centre - 19.

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Isn’t it prudent, in the middle of a pandemic, and a virus that is prevalent on many cruise ships, to assume that a respiratory infection IS Covid until proven otherwise?

 

 

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This is the relevant section with regards to NSW Health...

 

"... Under the Commonwealth Department of Health cruise protocols, an ILI outbreak is defined when ‘more than one per cent of the ships total passengers and crew have an influenza like illness’.

 

The Ruby Princess had 2647 passengers and 1148 crew. The ship reported to NSW Health there were 104 acute respiratory infections of which 36 people had presented to the ship’s clinic with influenza like illness during the cruise and its numbers fell short of the definition of an ‘outbreak’.

 

The Commonwealth Department of Health protocol on managing novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19 risk from cruise ship) states “provided there are no concerns about the COVID-19 risk profile of the ship or suspected COVID-19 cases reported …the ship may be allowed to continue voyage while samples are tested”."

 

https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/news/Pages/20200403_01.aspx

 

The focus of the criminal investigation is on the last part. NSW Police queried the 'operations managers' at Princess. They received assurances  that there were no COVID19 on board. So, let's wait for the outcome of the homicide investigation.

 

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Pushka said:

Isn’t it prudent, in the middle of a pandemic, and a virus that is prevalent on many cruise ships, to assume that a respiratory infection IS Covid until proven otherwise?

 

 

You cannot assume anything. What would happen if you said you had it on board and then it turned out you did not have it. They declared they had sick people and were honest from the start. If all of a sudden you woke up and night with a cold sweat would you immediately assume you had aids despite not doing anything that could have caused it? You have to go of fact not assumptions. These are legal documents they sent between the ship and government. To assume you have a deadly virus, declare it and not have it is probably illegal.

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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

You cannot assume anything. What would happen if you said you had it on board and then it turned out you did not have it. They declared they had sick people and were honest from the start. If all of a sudden you woke up and night with a cold sweat would you immediately assume you had aids despite not doing anything that could have caused it? You have to go of fact not assumptions. These are legal documents they sent between the ship and government. To assume you have a deadly virus, declare it and not have it is probably illegal.

 

But they did freakin have it so my theory would have been proven correct! 

 

WT does HIV have to do with any of this? We are talking about a respiratory virus. Everyone breathes. 

 

The cruiseline cannot state that there was no Covid onboard because they did not have the means in which to test for that. All they can state, and what they should have stated, is that there was X number of passengers onboard who have respiratory symptoms (they may add "that have not been tested for Covid" - although that would likely be assumed) If thats what they did in fact state then they are in the clear.

Edited by Pushka

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