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Possible Bankruptcy??

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2 hours ago, Coral said:

Cruise lines employee thousands of Americans at their headquarters, call centers, hotels, railroads, Gray Line of Alaska, etc.... On top of that, embarkation port cities in the US such as Seattle, FLL, Tampa, etc... greatly benefit from being a port city (hotels, restaurants, site seeing places and transportation companies). Cruise lines buy all of their food from US companies. US cruise ports greatly benefit from cruisers when they stop in these cities (New England, CA Coast, Alaska). This includes tour operators, restaurants, site seeing places, bus drivers, etc... US Airlines benefit bringing people to port cities.

 

The cruise industry does positively affect the US Economy and does generate jobs. 

The embarkation ports are in themselves major tourist areas, Plenty of people visit them cruise lines or not.

 

Many of the businesses in ports in Alaska and the Caribbean are not owned by locals. In Alaska most of those benefiting are out of town owners, and people that come into town specifically to work the tourist shops during the season.

 

The benefits will still be there even if the cruise lines have to restructure in BK.  Since they would most likely survive, even if their shareholders were to get wiped.

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15 hours ago, nbsjcruiser said:

Of course you raise valid points but it shouldn't stop people asking questions about the behaviour of the cruise lines behaviour as it relates to taxes and bailouts. Look, I'm not an American so I have no dog in the fight when it comes to bailouts but if the federal government is handing out bailouts to cruise lines then it should come with some strings attached. Bring your ships back to the US, start paying taxes and you'll get your bailout otherwise see if Liberia or the Bahamas will bail you out.

Maybe Canada, Australia, NZ, South America, Asia, EU, UK, etc ought to be contributing to supporting cruise lines since they help bring in a lot of tourist dollars and other benefits to economies.  Why just rely on America?  Everyone likes to dump on America and then also expect them to solve problems for all concerned. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, PescadoAmarillo said:

I disagree completely.  Balance is NOT a weighting of positive vs. negative reporting.  It never has been and hopefully never will be.  Balance is an honest assessment of facts, and, regardless of what anyone tries to tell us, there are not alternative facts. There are facts. Period.

 

I don't need the  media to blow sunshine up my skirt.  I don't want to hear about what "might" be, or what "might" work or what "feelings" some uninformed leader is having. I want the facts.  And if the facts are currently all negative, so be it.  That's life in the real world.  

In the first paragraph, I agree as I also think "balance" in reporting means presenting both/all sides of an issue that people might form an opinion on.  News should be the facts. 

 

I think I know to what you refer in the second paragraph.  I think there is nothing wrong to present information of what is happening or been done in other countries/locations in regards to something showing signs of helping or working.  Sure, call it anecdotal, etc, but the fact is that FDA is allowing at least NY State to try it on certain patients.  Yes, be prudent etc of course, but nothing wrong with expressing some hope.  Unfortunately, even a pandemic ends up being reported and perceived through a lens of political polarization. 

Edited by Steelers36

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19 minutes ago, Steelers36 said:

Maybe Canada, Australia, NZ, South America, Asia, EU, UK, etc ought to be contributing to supporting cruise lines since they help bring in a lot of tourist dollars and other benefits to economies.  Why just rely on America?  Everyone likes to dump on America and then also expect them to solve problems for all concerned. 

You have a good point!  They are not U.S. corporations.

NCLH (Norwegian) is incorporated in Bermuda, RCCL (Royal Caribbean) is incorporated in Liberia,  and CCL (Carnival Corporation) is incorporated in Panama whereas Carnival plc is incorporated in England and Wales.

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no - not at all. After 9/11 only cruise line that went bankrupt, was one who did not do business with TAs at all... not concerned about Princess or CCL group.

 

I am more concerned about my IRAs than my future booking deposit... LOL, so I don't cry. 

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7 hours ago, Steelers36 said:

Maybe Canada, Australia, NZ, South America, Asia, EU, UK, etc ought to be contributing to supporting cruise lines since they help bring in a lot of tourist dollars and other benefits to economies.  Why just rely on America?  Everyone likes to dump on America and then also expect them to solve problems for all concerned. 

I dont expect the US to bail them out. I'm not sure they deserve it. I live in a city of about 80K people on the Bay of Fundy in NB Canada. We were supposed to see 90 ships call on our port this year with over 200,000 visitors. The loss to our community will be enormous this year but I'm still not sure they deserve a bailout. They dont pay taxes anywhere in the world, why should any government bail them out? They made the conscious decision to avoid government oversight and taxes so maybe they should reap what they sow. While a smaller, morally conscious and corporately responsible cruise industry might mean fewer of us get to enjoy the pleasures of cruising it will also mean cleaner seas and air, happier employees getting a fair wage and a safer cruise for all who cruise. This could be the reckoning time of the cruise industry. Maybe they need that come to Jesus moment. Maybe those (like me) who love to cruise need a wake up call too.

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7 hours ago, Jim9310 said:

You have a good point!  They are not U.S. corporations.

NCLH (Norwegian) is incorporated in Bermuda, RCCL (Royal Caribbean) is incorporated in Liberia,  and CCL (Carnival Corporation) is incorporated in Panama whereas Carnival plc is incorporated in England and Wales.

So let Bermuda, Liberia and Panama bail them out. 

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8 hours ago, npcl said:

The embarkation ports are in themselves major tourist areas, Plenty of people visit them cruise lines or not.

 

Many of the businesses in ports in Alaska and the Caribbean are not owned by locals. In Alaska most of those benefiting are out of town owners, and people that come into town specifically to work the tourist shops during the season.

 

The benefits will still be there even if the cruise lines have to restructure in BK.  Since they would most likely survive, even if their shareholders were to get wiped.

I disagree. Just 2 examples:

 

Cruise ships bring 1 billion to Seattle's economy.  https://www.seattlebusinessmag.com/tourismhospitality/seattles-1b-cruise-ship-industry-stung-princess-cruises-decision-suspend


I found this for Vancouver: The Vancouver cruise industry stimulates on average nearly $3 million in direct activity to the local economy for each ship that visits Canada Place, generates nearly 7,000 jobs across Canada and $300 million in wages, and contributes $840 million to national GDP.

https://www.portvancouver.com/news-and-media/news/2019-expected-to-bring-a-record-number-of-cruise-passengers-to-vancouver/ 

 

When I am in Alaska - I book private tours direct with the company. I know these individuals are locals. I eat at local restaurants. I know I am not alone. You are correct that some companies employ college students in Alaska. I am aware of many college students from the US go to Alaska for summer jobs. These are still Americans who are benefiting. I work in Education and know some of our students are from Alaska and they work in the Princess/HAL lodges in the summer when back home.

 

After I posted last night, I did a search and all of those "luxury mattresses" that Princess has "are made in the USA". 

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1 hour ago, nbsjcruiser said:

I dont expect the US to bail them out. I'm not sure they deserve it. I live in a city of about 80K people on the Bay of Fundy in NB Canada. We were supposed to see 90 ships call on our port this year with over 200,000 visitors. The loss to our community will be enormous this year but I'm still not sure they deserve a bailout. They dont pay taxes anywhere in the world, why should any government bail them out? They made the conscious decision to avoid government oversight and taxes so maybe they should reap what they sow. While a smaller, morally conscious and corporately responsible cruise industry might mean fewer of us get to enjoy the pleasures of cruising it will also mean cleaner seas and air, happier employees getting a fair wage and a safer cruise for all who cruise. This could be the reckoning time of the cruise industry. Maybe they need that come to Jesus moment. Maybe those (like me) who love to cruise need a wake up call too.

 

nbsjcruiser, I agree with your assessment. 

 

I have had a wake up call about cruising over the past year or so. Combined with the arrogance of the airlines - together, cruising and air travel is increasingly expensive, constant downgrading and cutbacks and most important - not focused on the customer.

 

Fortunately we have discovered escorted tours and private touring which is much, much more rewarding. 

 

Think a private escorted tour of Rio with car and driver guide - who takes you everywhere, takes your pic in front of Christ the Redeamer (wow pic), drives you around the region, establishes you in your chosen local restaurant and waits outside (you get a walkie talkie if you need them), get to the front of the line at every tourist stop, sends the days pics to your email, and sends all pics again later. Seriously.  That service was $500 Cdn, that is it.  Rio is spectacular, can be dangerous, but not with this arrangement.

 

Cruising has little future in our world because it has been replaced by a smaller, more responsive, more local travel method.

 

Folks, time to get out of your cruise binging, try something different, you may like it.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Doubt It said:

 

nbsjcruiser, I agree with your assessment. 

 

I have had a wake up call about cruising over the past year or so. Combined with the arrogance of the airlines - together, cruising and air travel is increasingly expensive, constant downgrading and cutbacks and most important - not focused on the customer.

 

Fortunately we have discovered escorted tours and private touring which is much, much more rewarding. 

 

Think a private escorted tour of Rio with car and driver guide - who takes you everywhere, takes your pic in front of Christ the Redeamer (wow pic), drives you around the region, establishes you in your chosen local restaurant and waits outside (you get a walkie talkie if you need them), get to the front of the line at every tourist stop, sends the days pics to your email, and sends all pics again later. Seriously.  That service was $500 Cdn, that is it.  Rio is spectacular, can be dangerous, but not with this arrangement.

 

Cruising has little future in our world because it has been replaced by a smaller, more responsive, more local travel method.

 

Folks, time to get out of your cruise binging, try something different, you may like it.

 

 

Well said and its what I'm starting to grapple with. I love cruising. I love seeing different places but at what cost? And as you rightfully point out, airlines are becoming increasingly difficult to deal with - I'm looking at you Air Canada. 

 

I've been watching a TA I know who is still stuck on a ship posting pictures and comments on Facebook all the while touting the return to cruising and "keep the wanderlust". It all seems so tone deaf to me. People died on some of those ships and its business as normal? 

 

I'm not going to stop travelling in the long run. In the short term I am of course while I wait this out but your idea of a smaller more personal type of travelling is a helluva great idea. Maybe instead of an Mediterranean cruise that hits 3 or 4 places in Italy a better option might be to fly to Italy, hop a train, stop in small small villages as you travel north to south. Or rent a car, drive and stop in places off the map and experience places a cruise will never allow you to experience all the while leaving as small a footprint on the environment as you can. 

 

I really believe that the cruising industry needs that come to Jesus moment I refer to. Where are they cruising to, what damage are they doing to the seas and air, how are their employees being treated, why are they not doing their share by paying taxes in a country where 80% of their revenue comes from. We shouldn't all be just turning a blind eye to those issues because we get a cruise cheaper than we otherwise would. If cheap cruising means doing it on the backs on employees who are working non-stop for 6 months at a time or with companies who could be better corporate citizens then maybe cheap cruising isn't worth it.

Edited by nbsjcruiser

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Nope, not worried at all. Congress is already poised to pass/sign into law a $2 Trillion aid package, and I am certain that the tourism/cruise industry will receive aid. I'd be surprised if ANY cruise line goes bankrupt. Highly unlikely.

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30 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

Nope, not worried at all. Congress is already poised to pass/sign into law a $2 Trillion aid package, and I am certain that the tourism/cruise industry will receive aid. I'd be surprised if ANY cruise line goes bankrupt. Highly unlikely.

Its not certain the cruise industry will get aid. Sure there's 500B set aside for bailouts but it will be based on priorities. Airlines (obviously) will be one of those priorities. Financial institutions will be high up on the list. Cruise lines are not priorities and any request they may have will have to be vetted and approved. Even if they do manage to get some money, its not going to be quick while they all remain shut down for the foreseeable future.

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Posted (edited)

While I have loved cruising, prices went up services down. (Not the employees! )Not really sure how I feel !  Just take care of the folks who have paid their taxes!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Reader0108598

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, nbsjcruiser said:

Its not certain the cruise industry will get aid. Sure there's 500B set aside for bailouts but it will be based on priorities. Airlines (obviously) will be one of those priorities. Financial institutions will be high up on the list. Cruise lines are not priorities and any request they may have will have to be vetted and approved. Even if they do manage to get some money, its not going to be quick while they all remain shut down for the foreseeable future.

Well, obviously I disagree. We'll have to see what the future holds. Personally, I think since the travel/tourism/leisure industries are huge all across the world, I don't believe they're going to go bankrupt. I also believe that since steamships traversed the Atlantic in the '10s, and we've seen 2 world wars, the Spanish flu, and various other calamities both natural and man-made, and somehow the industry has just gotten bigger and more profitable than ever, it will weather this storm, too. I think things will be back to normal within a year, and likely much sooner. We'll see.

Edited by DCGuy64
deleted unnecessary word

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Posted (edited)

If cruiselines were forced to incorporate in the US and thus be subject US taxes, labor and wage laws; cruising as we know it would not exist. I would expect perhaps a 10 fold increase in fare price??? Which would leave this style of vacation for only the extremely well-heeled. Would demand decrease to the point where you might have one ship a week leaving Miami or Fort Lauderdale?

 

Also realize that by US standards working 12 hour days for 8 months with no days off for a fraction of US minimum wage may be abhorred by many of us, but these jobs are in high demand in these people’s homeland and their families are quite well-off. I’ve talked to a few older cabin stewards who were putting their kids through medical and dental school.

 

Personally, I rather enjoy the current model that allows DW and I to take 2-3 cruises a year to destinations I could once only dream about!

Edited by fishin' musician

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, fishin' musician said:

If cruiselines were forced to incorporate in the US and thus be subject US taxes, labor and wage laws; cruising as we know it would not exist. I would expect perhaps a 10 fold increase in fare price??? Which would leave this style of vacation for only the extremely well-heeled. Would demand decrease to the point where you might have one ship a week leaving Miami or Fort Lauderdale?

 

Also realize that by US standards working 12 hour days for 8 months with no days off for a fraction of US minimum wage may be abhorred by many of us, but these jobs are in high demand in these people’s homeland and their families are quite well-off. I’ve talked to a few older cabin stewards who were putting their kids through medical and dental school.

 

Personally, I rather enjoy the current model that allows DW and I to take 2-3 cruises a year to destinations I could once only dream about!

All you have to do is look at American Cruise Lines, Pearl Cruise lines and Un-Cruise to see what cruise prices would be like.

Edited by Coral

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Considering that Carnival owns 11 lines and 57% of the worldwide business, I sincerely doubt that would go bankrupt!

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, fishin' musician said:

If cruiselines were forced to incorporate in the US and thus be subject US taxes, labor and wage laws; cruising as we know it would not exist. I would expect perhaps a 10 fold increase in fare price??? Which would leave this style of vacation for only the extremely well-heeled. Would demand decrease to the point where you might have one ship a week leaving Miami or Fort Lauderdale?

 

Also realize that by US standards working 12 hour days for 8 months with no days off for a fraction of US minimum wage may be abhorred by many of us, but these jobs are in high demand in these people’s homeland and their families are quite well-off. I’ve talked to a few older cabin stewards who were putting their kids through medical and dental school.

 

Personally, I rather enjoy the current model that allows DW and I to take 2-3 cruises a year to destinations I could once only dream about!

 

Well, using that logic nobody should pay taxes because it would impact their ability to afford to provide a living to themselves and their families. Amazon doesn't pay taxes, cruise lines dont pay taxes, Apple doesn't pay taxes - see the pattern yet? Hint - you do they don't. 

 

Cruise lines will not go bankrupt because they are suddenly told to start paying taxes. Neither would Amazon or Apple. They wont like it certainly. It will negatively impact their bottom lines certainly but the strong will survive and thrive. There will be large changes to the market as lines are bought up or merge and yes you may have to pay more because they can no longer pay their workers $1200 a month for 400+ hours of work for 6 months straight but maybe that's a good thing.  

 

There's a lot to like about cruises, I've been on 29 of them but there's a lot to be concerned about too. Pollution, illness, worker wages and conditions and the fact that they gleefully avoid taxes that people like you are forced to pay. That was their choice. They shouldn't be allowed to line up at the trough now despite the fact that it might mean me or you no longer being able to afford to cruise. Bailing them out has got to be more than just my own selfish wants. There's more at play than that. Pay taxes, uphold basic working conditions and pollution standards and then and only then, ask for a bail out. If they're not willing to do that and it means the end of my ability to cruise, so be it. Again its a choice they made.

Edited by nbsjcruiser

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13 minutes ago, nbsjcruiser said:

 

Well, using that logic nobody should pay taxes because it would impact their ability to afford to provide a living to themselves and their families. Amazon doesn't pay taxes, cruise lines dont pay taxes, Apple doesn't pay taxes - see the pattern yet? Hint - you do they don't. 

 

Cruise lines will not go bankrupt because they are suddenly told to start paying taxes. Neither would Amazon or Apple. They wont like it certainly. It will negatively impact their bottom lines certainly but the strong will survive and thrive. There will be large changes to the market as lines are bought up or merge and yes you may have to pay more because they can no longer pay their workers $1200 a month for 400+ hours of work for 6 months straight but maybe that's a good thing.  

 

There's a lot to like about cruises, I've been on 29 of them but there's a lot to be concerned about too. Pollution, illness, worker wages and conditions and the fact that they gleefully avoid taxes that people like you are forced to pay. That was their choice. They shouldn't be allowed to line up at the trough now despite the fact that it might mean me or you no longer being able to afford to cruise. Bailing them out has got to be more than just my own selfish wants. There's more at play than that. Pay taxes, uphold basic working conditions and pollution standards and then and only then, ask for a bail out. If they're not willing to do that and it means the end of my ability to cruise, so be it. Again its a choice they made.

 

Well using that logic how many crew members would be out of work, how many families in third world countries would be forced into poverty?  In light of your beliefs I'm wondering how cruising ever appealed to you, it's not like the industry business model has changed???

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6 hours ago, nbsjcruiser said:

Well said and its what I'm starting to grapple with. I love cruising. I love seeing different places but at what cost? And as you rightfully point out, airlines are becoming increasingly difficult to deal with - I'm looking at you Air Canada. 

 

I've been watching a TA I know who is still stuck on a ship posting pictures and comments on Facebook all the while touting the return to cruising and "keep the wanderlust". It all seems so tone deaf to me. People died on some of those ships and its business as normal? 

 

I'm not going to stop travelling in the long run. In the short term I am of course while I wait this out but your idea of a smaller more personal type of travelling is a helluva great idea. Maybe instead of an Mediterranean cruise that hits 3 or 4 places in Italy a better option might be to fly to Italy, hop a train, stop in small small villages as you travel north to south. Or rent a car, drive and stop in places off the map and experience places a cruise will never allow you to experience all the while leaving as small a footprint on the environment as you can. 

 

I really believe that the cruising industry needs that come to Jesus moment I refer to. Where are they cruising to, what damage are they doing to the seas and air, how are their employees being treated, why are they not doing their share by paying taxes in a country where 80% of their revenue comes from. We shouldn't all be just turning a blind eye to those issues because we get a cruise cheaper than we otherwise would. If cheap cruising means doing it on the backs on employees who are working non-stop for 6 months at a time or with companies who could be better corporate citizens then maybe cheap cruising isn't worth it.

I would add that they need to realize that they can build and run a business without trying to put 10 mega ships into each small port.  Better to manage supply and maintain the experience that attracted us to cruising, that building new ships as fast as they can to try and grab market share.  Ports that we used to love in Alaska and the Caribbean have become so crowded we no longer go to them.  We spent 100 days on ships last year, planned 100 days this year, but even before the outbreak was starting to think that the desirable ports were becoming fewer and fewer due to over crowding.

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Posted (edited)

Although Congress hasn’t passed the $500 billion bailout bill yet, cruise line stocks are surging this afternoon:  CCL (Carnival) up 19%, NCLH (Norwegian) up 26%, and RCL (Royal Caribbean) up  26%.

Edited by Jim9310
update

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42 minutes ago, fishin' musician said:

 

Well using that logic how many crew members would be out of work, how many families in third world countries would be forced into poverty?  In light of your beliefs I'm wondering how cruising ever appealed to you, it's not like the industry business model has changed???

How many in the US could benefit from money that might go to bail out the industry?

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, fishin' musician said:

 

Well using that logic how many crew members would be out of work, how many families in third world countries would be forced into poverty?  In light of your beliefs I'm wondering how cruising ever appealed to you, it's not like the industry business model has changed???

Well, I wouldn't have gone on 29 cruises if I didn't enjoy it. Nothing about the cruise industry has changed obviously. What has changed is me. Did the cruise lines handle this properly? How safe is it? Times like this make me take a step back and ask if the status quo is ok. Just not sure if I can put myself on a ship anytime soon unless there's changes. 

Edited by nbsjcruiser

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Big corps don't pay income taxes - they pay tax attorneys  and CPA's to avoid/delay NOT EVADE ...

 

they do pay payroll taxes and other taxes

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1 minute ago, voljeep said:


Big corps don't pay income taxes - they pay tax attorneys  and CPA's to avoid/delay NOT EVADE ...

 

they do pay payroll taxes and other taxes

They dont pay payroll taxes on their employees who work on ships which is why they use flags of convenience to avoid all that bothersome stuff including workmen's compensation.  Not sure what you mean by "other taxes".

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