Possible Bankruptcy??

[capriccio]

On 3/24/2020 at 9:02 PM, Coral said:

Cruise lines employee thousands of Americans at their headquarters, call centers, hotels, railroads, Gray Line of Alaska, etc.... On top of that, embarkation port cities in the US such as Seattle, FLL, Tampa, etc... greatly benefit from being a port city (hotels, restaurants, site seeing places and transportation companies). Cruise lines buy all of their food from US companies. US cruise ports greatly benefit from cruisers when they stop in these cities (New England, CA Coast, Alaska). This includes tour operators, restaurants, site seeing places, bus drivers, etc... US Airlines benefit bringing people to port cities.

 

The cruise industry does positively affect the US Economy and does generate jobs. 

 

The cruise industry has a $9 billion impact on the Florida economy - home of cruise ports in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Cape Canaveral, Tampa and Jacksonville. See https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article241024641.html

[lderochi]

14 minutes ago, capriccio said:

 

The cruise industry has a $9 billion impact on the Florida economy - home of cruise ports in Miami, Fort Lauderdale, Cape Canaveral, Tampa and Jacksonville. See https://www.miamiherald.com/news/business/article241024641.html

 

I agree that the cruise industry has a Very large impact on the Florida economy, but that story quotes  CLIA  for the number- CLIA has never explained their methodology or even where their raw data comes from. They’re an industry trade group - I take anything they say about their industry’s importance with a grain of salt. 

[samiam1]

2 minutes ago, lderochi said:

 

I agree that the cruise industry has a Very large impact on the Florida economy, but that story quotes  CLIA  for the number- CLIA has never explained their methodology or even where their raw data comes from. They’re an industry trade group - I take anything they say about their industry’s importance with a grain of salt. 

 

Not a vital industry.  IMO US hotels, car manufacturers and airlines would come first plus almost all the cruise ships are foreign flagged and many cruise companies are non USA.

[capriccio]

4 minutes ago, lderochi said:

I agree that the cruise industry has a Very large impact on the Florida economy, but that story quotes  CLIA  for the number- CLIA has never explained their methodology or even where their raw data comes from. They’re an industry trade group - I take anything they say about their industry’s importance with a grain of salt. 

 

Here's some older numbers (2015/2016) in a very detailed report (see Chapter III for cruise impacts) for the Florida Seaport and Economic Development Council done by an independent contractor (Martin Associates).  It is interesting reading and I think it can be safely assumed that the impact has only increased since 2015/2016. 

[npcl]

14 hours ago, jwattle said:

Hindsight is such a nice gift

Yes it is.  But are you not a bit surprised that CCL had received deposits of 4735 million, yet only had 518 million in cash on hand.

Basically their cash on hand was only 11% of their deposit liability.  Add in net receivables 444 million   total 962 million and you only get to 20%. Even their complete revolving credit line and cash  on hand and net receivables (total 3962 million) does not even equal deposits.  To me that is more than a bit extreme for corporate financial behavior, especially since the cruise lines, these past few years, have been having the most profitable years of their existence.. The other major cruise lines are similar.

 

Compare that to the Airlines another high capital company with lots of advance sales. For example United airlines had, in its last filing, 2959 million in cash 2167 million in short term investments and 1617 million in account receivables vs 5,515 million in  advance ticket sales.  So a total in cash and liquid investments and accounts receivables total 6743 million or about 122% of deposits.

 

 

[npcl]

59 minutes ago, capriccio said:

 

Here's some older numbers (2015/2016) in a very detailed report (see Chapter III for cruise impacts) for the Florida Seaport and Economic Development Council done by an independent contractor (Martin Associates).  It is interesting reading and I think it can be safely assumed that the impact has only increased since 2015/2016. 

Your link did not seem to make it into the post

[caribill]

5 hours ago, Doubt It said:

 

Cruising is a discretionary item and should not receive a single $ of support from the taxpayer.

 

 

 

Many businesses that are discretionary are receiving support from this bill:

a) For most people eating at a restaurant is disrectionary

b) Most travel, which involves airlines, hotels, etc., is discretionary

c) Going to movies and plays is discretionary

etc.

 

But you do not have to worry about CCL Corp (and most of the cruise industry) getting any direct financial benefits from the American taxpayer in this bill:

 

a) Morgan Stanley digs through the text of the $2T stimulus package passed by the Senate without finding a specific mention of the cruise line industry.

 

b) The bailout terms require companies to be created in the U.S. and have a majority of employees based in the U.S. to be eligible for funds.

[Wheelhouse]

Here's an article on the cruise lines and the bailout package.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/26/coronavirus-bailout-could-exclude-carnival-norwegian-royal-caribbean-cruise-lines.html

[samiam1]

2 minutes ago, Wheelhouse said:

Here's an article on the cruise lines and the bailout package.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/26/coronavirus-bailout-could-exclude-carnival-norwegian-royal-caribbean-cruise-lines.html

 

They set up business outside the US to skirt taxes and maritime protection rules - why should the tax payers help scofflaws?

Edited March 26, 2020 by samiam1

[capriccio]

2 hours ago, npcl said:

Your link did not seem to make it into the post

Wow that wasn't very helpful of me was it?  😀

 

http://scdn.flaports.org/wp-content/uploads/EconomicImpactsofFloridaSeaports.pdf

 

Just some additional information on the source:  The Florida Seaport and Transportation Economic Development Council is "a public entity created by statute and charged with carrying out the state’s economic development mission through implementation of seaport capital improvement projects at the local level.  The Council was created within the Department of Transportation and consists of the port directors of the 15 publicly owned seaports and a representative from the Department of Transportation and the Department of Economic Opportunity."  https://flaports.org/about/florida-seaport-transportation-and-economic-development-program/

Edited March 26, 2020 by capriccio

[npcl]

1 hour ago, Wheelhouse said:

Here's an article on the cruise lines and the bailout package.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/26/coronavirus-bailout-could-exclude-carnival-norwegian-royal-caribbean-cruise-lines.html

What the person was talking about was a reference to a 2015 study on the influence on the cruiseline industry in Florida, that they mentioned, but did not provide a link or reference to the source document.  That is the one I was mentioning that their reference was missing.

[npcl]

19 minutes ago, capriccio said:

Wow that wasn't very helpful of me was it?  😀

 

http://scdn.flaports.org/wp-content/uploads/EconomicImpactsofFloridaSeaports.pdf

 

Just some additional information on the source:  The Florida Seaport and Transportation Economic Development Council is "a public entity created by statute and charged with carrying out the state’s economic development mission through implementation of seaport capital improvement projects at the local level.  The Council was created within the Department of Transportation and consists of the port directors of the 15 publicly owned seaports and a representative from the Department of Transportation and the Department of Economic Opportunity."  https://flaports.org/about/florida-seaport-transportation-and-economic-development-program/

According to the seaports paper Cargo vessels generate far more jobs 761,614 than the cruise industry 138,300 as well as economic impact 33 billion cargo, 6 billion cruise industry. Total state and local taxes cargo 4 billion, cruise industry 213 million

 

If the cruise lines fail expand the cargo ports. Seems to me that the state would economically benefit more if the space taken by the cruise lines in ports were expanded to handle cargo.

[pms4104]

1 hour ago, samiam1 said:

 

They set up business outside the US to skirt taxes and maritime protection rules - why should the tax payers help scofflaws?

Just shows you can't have your cake and eat it too

[Gracie115]

21 hours ago, npcl said:

The funny thing about this is if the cruise lines kept an amount equal to deposits in cash would have given them over 4 billion in cash) and/or if they had slowed down the mass race to build as many ships as possible, they would not have an problem weathering this.  The biggest cash drain they have is refunds on canceled cruises. Operational cost on idle ships they could have covered using revolving lines of credit with potentially renegotiating the terms and expiration dates of those.

YUP. Enron style accounting.

[Gracie115]

Well this just in from Princess:

 

I just got off the phone with my big box TA to find out the status of my refund and after they spoke with Princess the response was this:

 

"Betty from Princess would like to apologize for the delay in processing your refund, but it is in process and you can expect your refund in approximately 90 days!!"

 

Isn't that just special...…..

Edited March 26, 2020 by Gracie115

[voljeep]

so, just to clarify … Princess must first notify it's "bank" how much and where to send the refund to the customers form of payment ?

 

maybe that's limited to how many a day/week ? can be processed by that "bank" ?

[npcl]

7 minutes ago, Gracie115 said:

Well this just in from Princess:

 

I just got off the phone with my big box TA to find out the status of my refund and after they spoke with Princess the response was this:

 

"Betty from Princess would like to apologize for the delay in processing your refund, but it is in process and you can expect your refund in approximately 90 days!!"

 

Isn't that just special...…..

10 to 60 and now 90?  Why does this seem more and more that they are tying to scrape by until they can start sailing again.

[hapster85]

Is anyone else concerned that we might not get our refunds if they go bankrupt??

No

[Renmar]

12 minutes ago, hapster85 said:

On 3/21/2020 at 5:19 PM, trrn2016 said:

Is anyone else concerned that we might not get our refunds if they go bankrupt??

No

IF (and that is a big IF) they go bankrupt then, yes we are concerned about our deposits. Maybe 10 cents to the $ if any. There are probably larger problems to deal with than us cruisers.

 

Theo

[Doubt It]

Cruise lines. Really? Totally discretionary. Not a restaurant where retirement parties go, where birthday parties happen, where families in the area get food delivered. Local restaurants are part of the neighbourhood businesses that provide $ to hockey teams, baseball etc.

 

No, cruise lines, a big business that works darn hard to avoid taxation and oversight (like many others that many posters have noted like Amazon etc). You big business all want a taxpayer bailout, well, well, are you not the ultimate who__res. 

 

Nothing to you all. 

[c-boy]

Inigo Montoya   has made his appearance. 

[bluesea321]

The stimulus package does not include US backed loans for the industry so the cruise lines may have to seek additional debt on their own which will be expensive under the current circumstances.

 

"The industry’s trade group, the Cruise Lines International Association, acknowledged Thursday that the major cruise lines weren’t included in the package, despite providing a plan to policymakers, meeting with Vice President Mike Pence and a phone call from Micky Arison, chairman of the Carnival Corp., to President Trump."

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/cruise-lines-early-source-of-coronavirus-infections-out-of-bailout-package/ar-BB11LAuE?li=BBnb7Kz

[pms4104]

40 minutes ago, bluesea321 said:

The stimulus package does not include US backed loans for the industry so the cruise lines may have to seek additional debt on their own which will be expensive under the current circumstances.

 

"The industry’s trade group, the Cruise Lines International Association, acknowledged Thursday that the major cruise lines weren’t included in the package, despite providing a plan to policymakers, meeting with Vice President Mike Pence and a phone call from Micky Arison, chairman of the Carnival Corp., to President Trump."

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/news/cruise-lines-early-source-of-coronavirus-infections-out-of-bailout-package/ar-BB11LAuE?li=BBnb7Kz

It would seem CCL really, really needs financial help ... perhaps doable when Micky reorgs to a US based corp ... subject to the taxes and rules and regs of the US

 

Maybe CLIA should be lobbying Panama, Bermuda and Liberia for help for the cruiselines based in those countries.

 

I am hopeful this rescue bill will not be amended to bail out foreign-based corps 

Edited March 27, 2020 by pms4104

[bluesea321]

44 minutes ago, pms4104 said:

It would seem CCL really, really needs financial help ... perhaps doable when Micky reorgs to a US based corp ... subject to the taxes and rules and regs of the US.  Maybe CLIA should be lobbying Panama, Bermuda and Liberia for help for the cruise lines based in those countries.  I am hopeful this rescue bill will not be amended to bail out foreign-based corps 

 

I agree with you about not bailing out foreign corporations, any of them, we have enough problems as it is.  And at this point I strongly doubt the act will be amended.  It is being presented to the House as a "done deal, i.e., vote for it as-is".  We will see tomorrow.  

Edited March 27, 2020 by bluesea321

[samiam1]

5 hours ago, Gracie115 said:

 

"Betty from Princess would like to apologize for the delay in processing your refund, but it is in process and you can expect your refund in approximately 90 days!!"

 

Isn't that just special...…..

 

Yep the plan is to run out the 60 days credit card dispute time line and then stiff you if need be.