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koolZip

NO BAILOUT FOR CRUISE LINES!

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, CI66774 said:

What about the hundreds of thousands of Americans (and others) they employ? Do we punish them?

We should have also subsidized the horse and buggy industry, thousands were laid off when automobiles were invented.  In all seriousness if cruise lines are feasible in the future private enterprise/funds will invest after the BK.  People the demand from the general public for cruising aint gonna be there for a long time.  Most cruisers are not part of cruise critic (cheerleaders/fanatic cruisers).  

Edited by Newleno

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How many of you who don’t want a cruise line bailout buy American made products?  Most of the stuff we buy is made elsewhere.  This is to avoid American labor costs and taxes. IMHO, get the money to the people, not the corporations. The huge corporate tax cut, which was promised to create all these new jobs, went to executive bonuses and financed the largest corporate stock buyback ever. Another question for you. How many of these companies will pay the employees for quarantine time?  Yes there are some. Most will have to take unpaid time off and/or lose their job. Help the lower and middle class. The 1% has already been helped. 

Sorry, your argument that ships aren’t American flagged and therefore do not qualify for assistance doesn’t hold up. 

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while I wish that they were a US company, we do need to bail them out if needed.  It’s not only the US workers that support the cruise industry, but think of the impact on the ports that ships visit.  That would cause problems for more people than you can count 

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14 hours ago, davekathy said:

Like anyone else that is laid off from their job no matter the reason or who they work for, they go and find another job!

 

So let them fail. Let them 'sail away'. Let the industry fall flat. Let this board disappear too. Let your vacations be on land going forward. Then you will need to find another lifestyle/hobby. 

 

Perhaps this board is the wrong board to discuss the seriousness on the economics of the shutdown/lockdown due to the CV-19. Perhaps the posters that report and follow cruise critics on a daily basis is out of touch with the reality of those that are seriously hurting financially. Perhaps many that post here have no idea of the concept of working 24/7 to keep or build a business, or to make payroll weekly. Perhaps some are insulated to the point that they say, "Go find a job elsewhere.". Perhaps they don't understand that eviction notices are about to go out. Perhaps they don't care. That's my biggest worry. People simply don't care. But hey what do I know? Not much really except the by human nature we'll strip stores of TP and then tell peeps to suck it up buttercup. 

 

It's for this reason that I hope every industry out there and every individual out there gets their due when it comes to a bail out. The same peeps that are bitching about it has not witnessed increased taxes by % when GM got theirs, but yet they continue to fuss and complain. 

 

Peace out all. I've got TP to find and hoard.  

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Goodtime Cruizin said:

 

Peace out all. I've got TP to find and hoard.

Don't forget your hand sanitizer. :classic_rolleyes:

Edited by davekathy

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Why should we bail out anybody?  The only reason the car industry was bailed out was a payback to the unions.   Notice they didn't bail out the suppliers to the car industry. 

 

I'm against picking winners & losers.  Let the free market decide.   🍷

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12 hours ago, Heymarco said:

Well said! Royal wouldn’t be allowed to flag a ship in US if it wanted to. OP should learn facts first. Also, bailout doesn’t mean free handout either. If I recall, banks and auto companies paid  it back. 

Perhaps you should learn your facts first.  There is nothing to prevent RCI, or any cruise line from flagging their ships in the US.  They still would not be PVSA compliant (not allowed to make strictly US voyages, or from one US port to another), but there are many US flag ships today that were built in foreign shipyards, and that pay US taxes, and employ US crew.

 

As to the number of US jobs that the cruise industry supports, those figures come from CLIA, so they can be somewhat suspect, and there is no guarantee that those jobs would not be picked up by other customers if the cruise lines were to leave.  The second aspect is that even if the cruise lines go bankrupt, all that would mean is that the company is protected from creditors (don't have to pay their bills) while the company restructures and continues on in business.  And further, the assets (the ships) are still there, and if one line goes out of business, someone else will raise capital to buy the ships and start a new cruise line.

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20 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Perhaps you should learn your facts first.  There is nothing to prevent RCI, or any cruise line from flagging their ships in the US.  They still would not be PVSA compliant (not allowed to make strictly US voyages, or from one US port to another), but there are many US flag ships today that were built in foreign shipyards, and that pay US taxes, and employ US crew.

 

As to the number of US jobs that the cruise industry supports, those figures come from CLIA, so they can be somewhat suspect, and there is no guarantee that those jobs would not be picked up by other customers if the cruise lines were to leave.  The second aspect is that even if the cruise lines go bankrupt, all that would mean is that the company is protected from creditors (don't have to pay their bills) while the company restructures and continues on in business.  And further, the assets (the ships) are still there, and if one line goes out of business, someone else will raise capital to buy the ships and start a new cruise line.

Thank you.  Your comments are always much appreciated by me and others here!

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23 hours ago, Newleno said:

We should have also subsidized the horse and buggy industry,

The horse and buggy industry still exists, and for the companies that still participate in it, it is a very profitable industry.

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On 3/24/2020 at 4:24 AM, sgmn said:

I know a lot of people think tax avoidance is a good thing, but for me it is one of my big annoyances, especially with some of the big tech companies. I have to pay my full tax bill on my salary and feel companies should pay fair taxes too on their profits 

So you take 0 deductions, not even the standard when it comes to tax time?  Anyone who says they don't try to pay less in taxes is a liar.

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2 hours ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

So you take 0 deductions, not even the standard when it comes to tax time?  Anyone who says they don't try to pay less in taxes is a liar.

Sorry, I don't what you mean? Everyone under PAYE  in UK gets a personal allowance of £12500 pa, then pays 20% from 12500 to 50,000, then 40% from 50,000 upwards. Its deducted by employers at source. There's no other allowance. What pushes my buttons is the hugh tech companies and others who do not pay a reasonable tax on the Profits they make through clever tax avoidance schemes. And our schools, NHS and social services are struggling to provide basic services. 

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11 minutes ago, sgmn said:

Sorry, I don't what you mean? Everyone under PAYE  in UK gets a personal allowance of £12500 pa, then pays 20% from 12500 to 50,000, then 40% from 50,000 upwards. Its deducted by employers at source. There's no other allowance. What pushes my buttons is the hugh tech companies and others who do not pay a reasonable tax on the Profits they make through clever tax avoidance schemes. And our schools, NHS and social services are struggling to provide basic services. 

 

Many, if not most, of the posters here are from the USA where they do not have a PAYE system like ours. Everyone has to file a tax return each year and claim various allowances, as the self-employed do here in the UK.

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On 3/23/2020 at 7:33 PM, Iamcruzin said:

That would be me who filled for unemployment today for the first time ever in my 59 years of life.  My company is done. It's not easy finding a job when the world is on lockdown.

I am sorry, and hope you are on your feet again soon. 

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On 3/24/2020 at 9:12 AM, Joebucks said:

Go ask the state of Florida for example how important cruising is. Beyond all of the expert opinions of foreign labor and taxes, it is a huge economy for them. Cruises stimulate business towards flights, hotels, taxi/rideshare, restaurants, shopping, etc. It creates many additional jobs in many indirect areas plus direct ones like port employees. Do you think all of these US ports have cruise ships there for no reason or benefit to them? Really think about that.

As usual, there is always more to the story.  Thanks for reminding us of economic impact at US ports in NJ, FL, LA, CA, WA and maybe other states too.

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I'm not taking sides, and I know this is the Royal board, but...

 

NCL Pride of America is US Flagged and home ported in Hawaii.  Has anyone sailed her, and can give a comparison to how foreign flagged cruise ships are run?  Maybe there is no difference visible to the customer.  Except perhaps cruise fares.

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39 minutes ago, mpk said:

I'm not taking sides, and I know this is the Royal board, but...

 

NCL Pride of America is US Flagged and home ported in Hawaii.  Has anyone sailed her, and can give a comparison to how foreign flagged cruise ships are run?  Maybe there is no difference visible to the customer.  Except perhaps cruise fares.

Having worked on the NCL US flag ships for four years, I can say that unfortunately, there is a visible difference between US crew and foreign crew.  Compare your RCI foreign crew's hospitality and service, with your typical McDonald's staff in the US.  As the wages on the POA are still very low compared to average US wages, you don't get the cream of the crop.

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Although Congress hasn’t passed the $500 billion bailout bill yet, cruise line stocks are surging this afternoon:  18% CCL (Carnival) up 17%, NCLH (Norwegian) up 23%, and RCL (Royal Caribbean) up  25%.

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4 hours ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

So you take 0 deductions, not even the standard when it comes to tax time?  Anyone who says they don't try to pay less in taxes is a liar.

 

That's a classic example of false equivalency. That type of argument just obscures the truth.

 

Individuals take fair deductions offered to them at tax time. Corporations pay lobbyists massive amounts of money to create loopholes. Nearly 100 Fortune 500 companies effectively paid no federal taxes in 2018. 

 

There is a difference between taking the meager deductions offered to you as an individual versus changing the tax code so that your multi-billion dollar corporation pays no federal taxes.

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4 hours ago, S.A.M.J.R. said:

So you take 0 deductions, not even the standard when it comes to tax time?  Anyone who says they don't try to pay less in taxes is a liar.

 

I take the standard deduction because of the amount of money I make, it's better than itemizing. Where would you suggest I look to "try" to pay less?

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There's so much ignorance about the business of cruising it's almost impossible to fight.

 

Put it this way, cruise lines pay the exact amount of taxes they owe.  If you don't like that, talk to your friendly neighborhood politician.

 

The cruise industry generates piles of tax revenue, direct and indirect.  We're perfectly happy with that here in Florida.

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On 3/24/2020 at 7:00 AM, Newleno said:

 Most cruisers are not part of cruise critic (cheerleaders/fanatic cruisers).  

 

I thought I would ask many of my colleagues yesterday during a break on our video conference what they thought of the cruise industry... they all know me as the avid cruiser and traveler. There's only one other avid cruiser in the bunch.

An overwhelming majority think I'm nuts to even consider ever cruising again. What do you think they'll be telling their families, friends, colleagues, clients, if this topic comes up? We had about 40 logged in to our video conference.

 

 

6 minutes ago, boatseller said:

The cruise industry generates piles of tax revenue, direct and indirect.  We're perfectly happy with that here in Florida.

 

I dare say many would be astounded by the lack of taxes being paid by many large corporations... ignorance is bliss.

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1 hour ago, MightyMike said:

 

That's a classic example of false equivalency. That type of argument just obscures the truth.

 

Individuals take fair deductions offered to them at tax time. Corporations pay lobbyists massive amounts of money to create loopholes. Nearly 100 Fortune 500 companies effectively paid no federal taxes in 2018. 

 

There is a difference between taking the meager deductions offered to you as an individual versus changing the tax code so that your multi-billion dollar corporation pays no federal taxes.

Cruise-lines do NOT take advantage of loopholes.  They are NOT American entities, are incorporated in other countries, therefore are not required to pay taxes; just like thousands of other businesses.

 

They do however contribute BILLIONS to the US economy yearly as well as create hundreds of thousands of American jobs; this will give them the opportunity to accept a low or no interest loan (not a grant) if they so decide.

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I could be wrong, but just because the cruise lines weren't specifically mentioned (as opposed to the airlines), doesn't mean that they aren't potentially included in the "$500 billion for guaranteed, subsidized loans to larger industries". Maybe the government could offer them a 60% better interest rate on a second loan if they pay full interest on the first loan. Sorry, bad joke but I couldn't resist... 😆 

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3 minutes ago, Hoopster95 said:

I dare say many would be astounded by the lack of taxes being paid by many large corporations... ignorance is bliss.

They pay exactly as much as they owe.  Just like you (presumably) and I.

 

Business activity generates all sorts of taxes in and out.  To quibble about corporate direct taxation, something specifically avoided in the Constitution, is economic illiteracy.  Florida generates plenty of revenue from cruising and we are perfectly happy with that.  We are a no income tax State so if business don't pay income taxes, no problemo.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/23/2020 at 6:46 PM, koolZip said:

As I'm sure you know, the ships are largely foreign staffed. I want an American economic recovery package to benefit tax-paying Americans which would include shore-based businesses affected by the loss of revenue. But no, nothing to cruise line corporate.

You do realize that 'tax paying Americans' are the passengers on these ships?

You do realize that 'shore based business', ie, hotels, airlines, restaurants, etc., would be affected by the loss of revenue without aid to the cruise lines?

Edited by RocketMan275

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