Your input on decision-FCC, refund or NCL possibly remove offers?

[njhorseman]

51 minutes ago, blcruising said:

I expect them to cancel additional cruises and follow RCL and Princess. I also believe they will convert all impacted bookings to future cruise credit, eliminating the opportunity to receive a current refund.  If the future cruise credit is not used within the timeframe they establish, then a refund can be issued. They'd basically be deferring cash refunds to a time when they, in theory, will have more cash flow to issue the refund.

That would be a  violation of the passenger's contract as well as the CLIA requirement that cruise lines must offer refunds for canceled cruises...not to mention that every state's attorney general and possibly the US government would be charging cruise lines with violations of consumer protection laws.

 

I don't care what you think of the cruise lines and their management...what you're suggesting is a legal death sentence for any cruise line that tries it.

[njhorseman]

55 minutes ago, Petoonya said:

Thanks very much. Wonder if this is speculation or have you read something pertaining to deferring refunds?

He's just blowing smoke out of you know where. It wouldn't be legally possible.

[luv2kroooz]

1 minute ago, njhorseman said:

That would be a  violation of the passenger's contract as well as the CLIA requirement that cruise lines must offer refunds for canceled cruises...not to mention that every state's attorney general and possibly the US government would be charging cruise lines with violations of consumer protection laws.

 

I don't care what you think of the cruise lines and their management...what you're suggesting is a legal death sentence for any cruise line that tries it.

Wow, such extreme words.....the legal death....Just about every contract in the travel industry has been turned upside down during this pandemic, hasn't it?

[luv2kroooz]

1 minute ago, njhorseman said:

He's just blowing smoke out of you know where. It wouldn't be legally possible.

Wow, blowing smoke out of you know where. I responded to a question that was asked with a speculative answer based on what United airlines has done. Appreciate your opinion, though.

[njhorseman]

1 minute ago, blcruising said:

Wow, such extreme words.....the legal death....Just about every contract in the travel industry has been turned upside down during this pandemic, hasn't it?

No...no contract has been turned upside down. In fact the cruise lines have offered more than what would be required under the contract.

[luv2kroooz]

Just now, njhorseman said:

No...no contract has been turned upside down. In fact the cruise lines have offered more than what would be required under the contract.

Hmm. I think youve just confirmed my point. Enjoy your evening.

[njhorseman]

1 minute ago, blcruising said:

Wow, blowing smoke out of you know where. I responded to a question that was asked with a speculative answer based on what United airlines has done. Appreciate your opinion, though.

i don't know or care what UAL has done, but I'll guarantee you it's permissible within the bounds of their ticket contract and what you're suggesting is not permissible  under the cruise lines' contracts.

[Petoonya]

6 minutes ago, blcruising said:

Wow, blowing smoke out of you know where. I responded to a question that was asked with a speculative answer based on what United airlines has done. Appreciate your opinion, though.

Know that you're not blowing smoke. I see the UAL is deferring refunds for one year. Since it is a refund "promise" wouldn't it be considered still a refund? There has to be some legal precedent for UAL. Airlines and cruise lines operate under different parameters, but sounds like it could be a creative way for the cruise lines to manage this crisis.

 

NJ Horseman you've got me interested in reading CLIA guidelines. Sounds like you know your stuff. The thought of the cruise lines deferring payment would really alarm me.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Petoonya

[njhorseman]

1 minute ago, blcruising said:

Hmm. I think youve just confirmed my point. Enjoy your evening.

I think you need a better understanding of what the words "turned upside down" imply. It suggests a negative change when in fact the cruise lines have given passengers more options than they are required to under the contract, which is anything but "turned upside down.'

[njhorseman]

1 minute ago, Petoonya said:

Know that you're not blowing smoke. I see the UAL is deferring refunds for one year. Since it is a refund "promise" wouldn't it be considered still a refund? There has to be some legal precedent for UAL. Airlines and cruise lines operate under different parameters, but sounds like it could be a creative way for the cruise lines to manage this crisis.

Airlines have to abide by their ticket contract, cruise lines by theirs. Just because UAL is doing something that they believe is permissible doesn't mean the cruise lines can do the same.

 

By the way, I can't say with any certainty, but I'm not convinced what UAL is doing is permissible and I'd love to see how an aggressive attorney general's office or the FAA is going to react to it. Now if the bailout legislation pending in Congress permits something like that it will be a different story, but absent that I'm skeptical. 

[Petoonya]

Just now, njhorseman said:

Airlines have to abide by their ticket contract, cruise lines by theirs. Just because UAL is doing something that they believe is permissible doesn't mean the cruise lines can do the same.

 

By the way, I can't say with any certainty, but I'm not convinced what UAL is doing is permissible and I'd love to see how an aggressive attorney general's office or the FAA is going to react to it. Now if the bailout legislation pending in Congress permits something like that it will be a different story, but absent that I'm skeptical. 

Thanks very much.

[njhorseman]

9 minutes ago, Petoonya said:

 

NJ Horseman you've got me interested in reading CLIA guidelines. Sounds like you know your stuff. The thought of the cruise lines deferring payment would really alarm me.

I have some familiarity as I formerly owned a travel agency. When a cruise line cancels a cruise the passengers are entitled to a refund of the fares paid. To not make that refund in a timely manner would not be an issue with CLIA but rather with consumer protection laws. 

[luv2kroooz]

26 minutes ago, Petoonya said:

Know that you're not blowing smoke. I see the UAL is deferring refunds for one year. Since it is a refund "promise" wouldn't it be considered still a refund? There has to be some legal precedent for UAL. Airlines and cruise lines operate under different parameters, but sounds like it could be a creative way for the cruise lines to manage this crisis.

 

NJ Horseman you've got me interested in reading CLIA guidelines. Sounds like you know your stuff. The thought of the cruise lines deferring payment would really alarm me.

Yes, I was not really pretending to know the legal ins and outs...far beyond my pay grade. I was just speculating that it could be a creative, if not necessary, way to defer, not eliminate, the refunds. I mean, they are all blowing through cash quickly with very little cash coming in. 

 

Then I got ambushed.......

Edited March 26, 2020 by blcruising

[njhorseman]

5 minutes ago, blcruising said:

Yes, I was not really pretending to know the legal ins and outs...far beyond my pay grade. I was just speculating that it could be a creative, if not necessary, way to defer, not eliminate, the refunds. I mean, they are all blowing through cash quickly with very little cash coming in. 

 

Then I got ambushed.......

 

 

 Let me apologize for my choice of words in the "blowing smoke" reply. I should have chosen a better way to express what I wanted to say.

 

But...A general suggestion would be to not talk about something that's far beyond your pay grade.

[PATRLR]

9 hours ago, Petoonya said:

Know that you're not blowing smoke. I see the UAL is deferring refunds for one year. Since it is a refund "promise" wouldn't it be considered still a refund?

 

9 hours ago, njhorseman said:

Airlines have to abide by their ticket contract, cruise lines by theirs. Just because UAL is doing something that they believe is permissible doesn't mean the cruise lines can do the same.

 

I too think what UAL is trying to do is not permissible.  My gut sense is they are trying to get away with something and wouldn't be surprised to see them get in some hot water over it. 

FWIW, on some of the airline discussion boards there is plenty of evidence of customers pushing back on United reps and eventually getting refunds where initially refunds were not offered.  so if anyone finds United canceling a flight and not giving a refund, push back hard on them to get your refund.

 

[hamrag]

10 hours ago, Petoonya said:

Ahhhhh- would make perfect sense. Also depending on the timeframe established, NCL can count on some cruisers forgetting they have a refund coming- cruisers with a poor memory like me. And if it's 2 years jeez, I might be dead.

 

More of that pawkyness.....😂....love it, you made me smile again! 

[luv2kroooz]

2 hours ago, PATRLR said:

so if anyone finds United canceling a flight and not giving a refund, push back hard on them to get your refund.

Again, I don't know if what they are doing is legal or not. It is interesting that they are not eliminating refunds...they are delaying them.

 

Just curious, though, if they don't have any cash available to pay a refund, no matter how hard you "push back", how are you proposing they pay it? 

 

 

I'm going through this with Norwegian Airlines right now. They cancelled my May flight from Rome. I submitted a refund claim over three weeks ago and heard nothing. They don't have cash, either. I sent my documentation of cancellation to Visa and they are handling on my behalf. Pushing back against Norwegian Airlines wouldn't have achieved the result I was looking for since the airline has no cash with which to pay the refund I am seeking.

Edited March 26, 2020 by blcruising

[luv2kroooz]

11 hours ago, njhorseman said:

 

 

 Let me apologize for my choice of words in the "blowing smoke" reply. I should have chosen a better way to express what I wanted to say.

 

But...A general suggestion would be to not talk about something that's far beyond your pay grade.

Thank you. No worries. Be well.

[sanger727]

Sorry to rain the on the parade here but I'm not so sure that this cruise being cancelled is definitive.

 

If Trump gets serious about getting the country up and running again ASAP and cruise lines don't cancel all the May cruises...

 

And if the only reason this cruise can't sail is that they can't call a port in Canada

 

Wouldn't it be more profitable for NCL to change the itinerary make it a pacific cruise coast that calls in Mexico instead? Rather than simply cancel and continue to let the ship sit idle. 

 

I have seen a post from someone else who had an Alaska cruise in June and the person she talked to at Norwegian stated that they would change the itinerary rather than cancel the cruise if they can't port in Canada.

 

If I was in your shoes and likely to be able to use the FCC I would cancel under the peace of mind. If I wouldn't be likely to want to use the FCC I would continue waiting until at least April 10 to see how far out they push the new cancellation extension.

[PATRLR]

12 hours ago, njhorseman said:

But...A general suggestion would be to not talk about something that's far beyond your pay grade.

you must be lost, so, I will try to help.  You are in the Cruise Critic forums.  speaking about things you have little knowledge of is common place here.

31 minutes ago, blcruising said:

Just curious, though, if they don't have any cash available to pay a refund, no matter how hard you "push back", how are you proposing they pay it? 

 

 

I'm going through this with Norwegian Airlines right now. They cancelled my May flight from Rome. I submitted a refund claim over three weeks ago and heard nothing. They don't have cash, either. I sent my documentation of cancellation to Visa and they are handling on my behalf. Pushing back against Norwegian Airlines wouldn't have achieved the result I was looking for since the airline has no cash with which to pay the refund I am seeking.

The airlines have lines of credit and such to get them through these situations.  If they genuinley didn't have cash to pay refunds, then they certainly don't have cash for payroll and other operating expenses and we won't even get into cash to service the debt for all those new planes, so, they would be forced into bankruptcy.  That may be coming, but it will be the debt service that puts them there, not individual's refunds.

[njhorseman]

40 minutes ago, PATRLR said:

you must be lost, so, I will try to help.  You are in the Cruise Critic forums.  speaking about things you have little knowledge of is common place here.

Sorry, my mistake. I forgot that on the internet it's common for people to not let facts prevent them from expressing themselves even if they look like fools by doing so. 

[Trimone]

Sorry to rain on any parade, but if you imagine cruising starting back up before 2021 you’ve no chance, the Covid-19 virus isn’t under any control yet, no vaccine available, do you think any cruise line would get insurance under these circumstances? No.

This is not the Flu, this could kill millions, over 22000 deaths already.

[hamrag]

3 hours ago, sanger727 said:

If Trump gets serious about getting the country up and running again ASAP and cruise lines don't cancel all the May cruises...

 

No words....🤣🙄

[Petoonya]

5 hours ago, sanger727 said:

Sorry to rain the on the parade here but I'm not so sure that this cruise being cancelled is definitive.

 

If Trump gets serious about getting the country up and running again ASAP and cruise lines don't cancel all the May cruises...

 

And if the only reason this cruise can't sail is that they can't call a port in Canada

 

Wouldn't it be more profitable for NCL to change the itinerary make it a pacific cruise coast that calls in Mexico instead? Rather than simply cancel and continue to let the ship sit idle. 

 

I have seen a post from someone else who had an Alaska cruise in June and the person she talked to at Norwegian stated that they would change the itinerary rather than cancel the cruise if they can't port in Canada.

 

If I was in your shoes and likely to be able to use the FCC I would cancel under the peace of mind. If I wouldn't be likely to want to use the FCC I would continue waiting until at least April 10 to see how far out they push the new cancellation extension.

What you're saying is the thing I have simmering in the back of my mind. I won't use the FCC unless I have no other choice. I've decided to take it a day at a time. My TA believes there will be no cruises until 2021 unless a vaccine is developed based on feedback from age 60+ cruisers. Just another opinion of many.

 

Who is it who declared a halt to cruising at least in the US- Orangehead, the cruise lines, CDC, CLIA? Who could proclaim cruising is open again?

Edited March 26, 2020 by Petoonya

[sanger727]

3 minutes ago, Petoonya said:

What you're saying is the thing I have simmering in the back of my mind. I won't use the FCC unless I have no other choice. I've decided to take it a day at a time. My TA believes there will be no cruises until 2021 unless a vaccine is developed based on feedback from age 60+ cruisers. Just another opinion of many.

 

Who is it who declared a halt to cruising at least in the US- Orangehead, the cruise lines, CDC, CLIA? Who could proclaim cruising is open again?

 

Yeah. No one really knows when cruising would resume. I don't think the option to cancel for FCC will go away any time soon though. For reference, if it helps, I saw a thread on celebrity's board where they have canceled all their Alaska cruises till July over this but their Northeast coast/Canadian cruises are being modified to go to Bermuda or Nassau. So I don't think an itinerary change is out of the question IF cruising is back up. But that's a big IF.