Interesting Times article answering why no bail out for cruiselines

[klfrodo]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/cruise-lines-were-shut-out-of-the-coronavirus-stimulus-heres-why/ar-BB12juok?li=BBnb7Kz

 

What I found interesting was the statement alleging that the cruiselines find it cheaper to just pay environmental fines as a cost of doing business rather than making the financial investment to comply.

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, klfrodo said:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/cruise-lines-were-shut-out-of-the-coronavirus-stimulus-heres-why/ar-BB12juok?li=BBnb7Kz

 

What I found interesting was the statement alleging that the cruiselines find it cheaper to just pay environmental fines as a cost of doing business rather than making the financial investment to comply.

Well, it is an environmental group making the statement.  They also stated that Princess was fined for " illegally dumping oil-contaminated waste", when in fact there is no evidence that any oil was sent over the side, just that potentially oily water was processed in an illegal manner.  But, that doesn't sound as environmentally unsound as their statement.

[Mike981]

1 hour ago, klfrodo said:

 

What I found interesting was the statement alleging that the cruiselines find it cheaper to just pay environmental fines as a cost of doing business rather than making the financial investment to comply.

 

Many corporations have the same business model. The fines are minuscule to what they profit.

[iancal]

No surprise whatsoever.   These are the facts.  Sure, some avid cruisers like to downplay them but the article does not provide any information that was not already readily available in the public domain. 

 

There are other issues-particularly in the Caribbean where the cruise lines play one jurisdiction off against another in an effort to be rebated as much of the port taxes charged to, and paid by cruisers, as possible.  So yes...part of those port taxes that we  pay to some Caribbean nations often make their way back into the cruise line bank accounts.  Their part of the bargain....to deliver x thousand of cruisers annually to the island nation.

 

It has never stopped us from cruising, and we enjoy cruising, but it does not make us ignore the reality of the industry.

Edited April 8, 2020 by iancal

[klfrodo]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, it is an environmental group making the statement.  They also stated that Princess was fined for " illegally dumping oil-contaminated waste", when in fact there is no evidence that any oil was sent over the side, just that potentially oily water was processed in an illegal manner.  But, that doesn't sound as environmentally unsound as their statement.

Come on now Chief.

I respect your knowledge and your ability  and willingness to share your experience in the marine world.

 

However, there is no way you can sit back and say that leadership in the cruiseline world has no culpability and no knowledge as to how they may sometimes delve into the grey area when it comes to evading environmental laws and or regulations. As Mike stated, it can be in some instances cheaper to just pay the fines and keep raking in the dough.

If that is the direction leadership chooses,,, they cannot then come back during hard times and expect a hand up or hand out.

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, klfrodo said:

Come on now Chief.

I respect your knowledge and your ability  and willingness to share your experience in the marine world.

 

However, there is no way you can sit back and say that leadership in the cruiseline world has no culpability and no knowledge as to how they may sometimes delve into the grey area when it comes to evading environmental laws and or regulations. As Mike stated, it can be in some instances cheaper to just pay the fines and keep raking in the dough.

If that is the direction leadership chooses,,, they cannot then come back during hard times and expect a hand up or hand out.

No, I don't dispute that Carnival, in particular, has a culture of not following environmental laws, no gray areas there, but I will also say that I witnessed first hand how a company, NCL, could and did turn its entire corporate culture around with regards to environmental compliance.  I've never advocated for the cruise lines to receive federal money, and still don't, but the whole mention of the environmental violations is pure tabloid journalism.  I would like to research how many companies that do receive federal money have had environmental fines in the past.

 

But, what I am against is environmental folks stating things like "tons of oil contaminated water", when due to the nature of the violation, no one can say whether a single drop of oil was discharged, or whether tons of oil were spread in a miles long sheen, since the violation was for discharging around an oil content meter.  I routinely discharge water that my oil content meter shows as having less than 1ppm (15ppm is the legal limit), and this is water straight from our engine room bilges.  So, while legally it is correct that any water in an engine room bilge is "oily water", in reality, it may have absolutely no oil in it.

[Joebucks]

Could always open up for concessions to be made that provides a benefit to the United States. Being against a company because it follows the law to lower its tax liability would put a lot of big corporations out of business.

[George C]

My very first job when I was 17 in 1967 was for I believe the last cruise lines based in USA , US Lines . 

[chengkp75]

8 hours ago, George C said:

My very first job when I was 17 in 1967 was for I believe the last cruise lines based in USA , US Lines . 

Actually, that title rests with American Hawaii Cruises, which operated the SS Independence and SS Constitution in Hawaii until they went bankrupt after 9/11, in 2001.  They were the original owners of NCL's Pride of America, under the project title of "Project America" and had contracted with Ingalls/Litton shipyard in Pascagoula, MS, for two new cruise ships.

[chengkp75]

11 hours ago, Joebucks said:

Could always open up for concessions to be made that provides a benefit to the United States. Being against a company because it follows the law to lower its tax liability would put a lot of big corporations out of business.

Well, the US taxes all other foreign corporations for their earnings in the US, but IRS Code section 883, exempts shipowners and airlines from this tax, so essentially the cruise lines are already receiving a benefit from the taxpayers that no one else is getting, and has gotten for decades.

[chipmaster]

Another good read:  https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52182509

 

[Toofarfromthesea]

7 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, the US taxes all other foreign corporations for their earnings in the US, but IRS Code section 883, exempts shipowners and airlines from this tax, so essentially the cruise lines are already receiving a benefit from the taxpayers that no one else is getting, and has gotten for decades.

 

Yup.  It is the rule of the hobo jungle.  If you don't put anything into the pot, don't expect to be allowed to take anything out of the pot.  I'm sure the cruiselines and airlines fought bitterly against this provision.  /sarcasm.

[chengkp75]

30 minutes ago, Toofarfromthesea said:

 

Yup.  It is the rule of the hobo jungle.  If you don't put anything into the pot, don't expect to be allowed to take anything out of the pot.  I'm sure the cruiselines and airlines fought bitterly against this provision.  /sarcasm.

Well, it actually pre-dates the cruise lines by several decades, and applies to all ships, not just cruise ships.

[Gloria Mundi]

18 hours ago, George C said:

My very first job when I was 17 in 1967 was for I believe the last cruise lines based in USA , US Lines . 

UnCruise is American-owned, headquartered in Seattle and all but one of their vessels is US-flagged.  The exception is s a very small ship chartered in Ecuador and used only in the Galapagos.  I'm booked on my 6th cruise with them in October, 2021.

[chengkp75]

1 minute ago, Gloria Mundi said:

UnCruise is American-owned, headquartered in Seattle and all but one of their vessels is US-flagged.  The exception is s a very small ship chartered in Ecuador and used only in the Galapagos.  I'm booked on my 6th cruise with them in October, 2021.

Well, for small cruises, there are Blount Adventure Cruises, American Cruise Line, and American Queen Cruise Line, North Pacific Expeditions, and a few others.

[RocketMan275]

On 4/9/2020 at 5:37 AM, chengkp75 said:

Well, the US taxes all other foreign corporations for their earnings in the US, but IRS Code section 883, exempts shipowners and airlines from this tax, so essentially the cruise lines are already receiving a benefit from the taxpayers that no one else is getting, and has gotten for decades.

Of course, the cruise lines do contribute indirectly.  Air fares, hotel rooms, restaurants, rental cars, employees, all pay taxes and their business decline when cruises decline.