Credit card dispute worked

[Sam Ting]

On 4/21/2020 at 6:54 AM, seven_37 said:

we were told pretty much the same.  in our case, we cancelled on the 11th of march (cruise was set to deport on the 16th), then a couple of days later carnival issued statements about stopping all cruises.  when we called to cancel on the 11th, we opted for the FCC, however after the larger cancellation announcement and the revised offer for 100% refund, we went ahead and submitted through the carnival website.  we got refunded for the excursions and prepurchases within a week and a half, but carnival is still sitting on $2700 and i'm starting to wonder if we'll ever see that unless i attempt the CC dispute route.

What are you waiting for?  Just dispute the charge. It’s very easy and not personal. It’s only business after all.  

[seven_37]

6 hours ago, Sam Ting said:

What are you waiting for?  Just dispute the charge. It’s very easy and not personal. It’s only business after all.  

it didn't take much to convince me 😉

 

filed this morning.  will wait and see how this goes down.  i know i sure don't trust carnival to do the right thing.

[Jobeth66]

Couple things, we know nothing about the specific merchant agreement between Carnival and the card issuer.  Just because OP got a credit doesn't mean Carnival returned any money.  It's entirely possible this is still coverable by new charges.
So, Carnival and the issuer maybe agreed between themselves to quickly resolve the dispute as a cost cutting measure because it's already cost $200-300 between them in completely unnecessary expenses.  Carnival will eventually process the refund so the card issue is just floating that expense now.
So, good for OP, but this just puts both Carnival and the card issuer in worse positions for everyone else.
 

All Carnival had to do avoid being put in a "worse position" is to reasonably refund charges. 10-14 days could be reasonable. Even 30 days COULD be reasonable. 90 isn't. At all.

Send out an email. Unfortunately, we are forced to cancel your sailing. Your funds will be returned to you via original. Payment method with 30 days. If you choose to take a future cruise credit in an amount of 125% of your fully paid fare, please contact your TA or PVP within 48 hours to initiate the process."

Refunds should be the default, not FCC.

[bury me at sea]

I am surprised at the animosity of some posters toward those who choose to dispute charges not refunded in a timely manner.

 

It is a legitimate method offered by credit card companies to recoup losses when the merchant fails to provide goods or services as agreed.

 

Carnival stated publicly it has cash to carry it through the end of the year.  There is no logistical excuse for failing to refund within thirty days the portion of that cash that belongs to customers.

[Sillyjilly]

4 hours ago, bury me at sea said:

I am surprised at the animosity of some posters toward those who choose to dispute charges not refunded in a timely manner.

 

It is a legitimate method offered by credit card companies to recoup losses when the merchant fails to provide goods or services as agreed.

 

Carnival stated publicly it has cash to carry it through the end of the year.  There is no logistical excuse for failing to refund within thirty days the portion of that cash that belongs to customers.

Except for the unprecedented amount of refunds that need to be processed.

[CoasterGuy]

On 4/18/2020 at 1:49 PM, Joebucks said:

 

While I'm not advocating for a 90 day refund, it's not them just deciding to screw everyone. Many of these companies literally don't have enough cash flow on hand to just hand out millions of dollars instantly.

 

I agree with this part. Which is why I think those who have not been financially affected by the pandemic should be paitent.

 

On 4/18/2020 at 1:49 PM, Joebucks said:

If you can't feed your family because of a cruise you already agreed to, that's not Carnival's fault.

 

Correct, not Carnival's fault. But DO realize people have lost jobs recently, over something that no one saw coming. I don't blame someone if they are in a position that they suddenly need this money.

[hdmaninmb]

Let's get some facts straight. My source is the SEC filings by Carnival earlier this month. Feel free to fact check me- just go to the SEC page and search up "CCL". 😉

 

At the end of last quarter, Carnival had ~$1.3B cash on hand. They owed ~$4.7B for customer deposits for future cruises. That is a "B", for billion. How much has that number increased or decreased, I don't know, but they are still accepting money for future cruises (so they can refund me and you?). Kicking the can down the road.

 

They stated that 45% of customers (who contacted them) were fine with FCC, while 55% wanted their cash back.

 

That was BEFORE CDC extended the "no sail order". I'm sure many more people have since decided they want their cash back.

 

They issued ~$500M in common stock, to raise cash...pennies compared to their current liabilities.

 

They stated that they should require $1B per month to service their obligations, for up to a year (or less).  They are also in the midst of getting sued.

 

They offered ~$5B in new secured debt (bonds). My interpretation of the SEC filing, is that it the money may be held in escrow for some time, which might explain their alleged "wait 90 days" scheme.

 

They added a new member to their board, a lawyer. 🤔

 

Y'all do what you want, but I see the writing on the wall very clearly.  I'm going to try to be first in line to get my cash back, before there is none (think: "bank run").

 

Now, more than ever, "cash is king". Whether I, or anyone else really "needs" their money right this minute is irrelevant, and subjective.  I'd rather have cash sitting in my savings acct earning .01% interest, than having my cash sitting in Carnival's acct, earning 0% interest for me, and potentially disappearing entirely.  Also, I have other goals that could be funded with the thousands of dollars of mine that Carnival is sitting on.  Do I need it to feed my family? Nope, but I need it to further my family's financial interests. If I lose my job tomorrow, that changes.

 

Carnival canceled my cruise, I didn't. 

 

On the bright side, I did some cursory research on services not rendered/received, paid with a CC, with a bankrupt merchant.  I can't vouch for what I read, because I didn't fully research it. However, apparently, if a merchant goes bankrupt, the cc issuer still may refund the cardholder, but it comes at the expense of the card issuer. Something about the card issuer's agreement with Visa, Mastercard, etc.  However, it isn't guaranteed.  

 

YMMV, and if you don't have skin in the game (i.e., if Carnival doesn't have any of your dollars), your opinion on the matter is irrelevant. If you do have skin in the game, but still choose to "be patient", may your optimism and patience pay dividends.  Personally, I'm foregoing $1,000 in onboard credits by jumping ship. No big deal, it was never mine to begin with.

 

I think, best case, a couple of these sinking ships merge, else someone (else) with deep pockets steps in. Without that, and if these boats aren't moving for several months or more, they are hosed. Their credit cards are maxed, and I doubt they have many more options left to create the long-term liquidity they may need to weather the storm. (Think on a micro scale: your HELOC is maxed, underwater on your mortgage, all 15 credit cards maxed, no income- no one else is going to lend you money, not even Mom and Dad, brother or sister).  Bankruptcy filing by end of August is my best guess, if they can't put some boats moving on the water before then. Even if boats do start moving, I'd bet they'd be well under capacity, creating a net loss for Carnival for every cruise, even with all the blackjack and slot machine donations by customers. 🤔  

[roxievegas]

We paid two deposits on 09/13/2019 for two cabins for a cruise leaving April 6.  We paid the final payment, two payments of $1093.92 on 01/23/2020.  We booked through a travel agency.  Our cruise was cancelled by Carnival.  I went on line and put in for a full refund.  Heard nothing.

Two days later, our travel agency sent out an email with a link to cancel our cruise and get refund.  I followed the link and received an email from travel agency with a cancellation notice on 03/18/2020.

Two days ago I went on to Citi bank website and disputed the charges for the four money amounts listed above.  Those charges are now on my account listed as "disputed".

I have another cruise with Princess, I will dispute that one in May, if I have not heard anything.  I think I made final payment end of February.

all total we have over $6500 due back from cruise line.

[hdmaninmb]

20 minutes ago, roxievegas said:

We paid two deposits on 09/13/2019 for two cabins for a cruise leaving April 6.  We paid the final payment, two payments of $1093.92 on 01/23/2020.  We booked through a travel agency.  Our cruise was cancelled by Carnival.  I went on line and put in for a full refund.  Heard nothing.

Two days later, our travel agency sent out an email with a link to cancel our cruise and get refund.  I followed the link and received an email from travel agency with a cancellation notice on 03/18/2020.

Two days ago I went on to Citi bank website and disputed the charges for the four money amounts listed above.  Those charges are now on my account listed as "disputed".

I have another cruise with Princess, I will dispute that one in May, if I have not heard anything.  I think I made final payment end of February.

all total we have over $6500 due back from cruise line.

 

I received cancellation letters from Carnival too. Honestly, the letters themselves hightened my concerns, and raised more red flags.

 

The pertinent language was:

 

"A refund of the government fees and taxes will be processed to the original form of payment...."

 

Read that closely, now read it again. What is missing? Oh, that's right, the "Cruise Rate" that makes up ~80% of the money I gave them- no mention about them refunding that...only mention of them refunding me "government fees and taxes", which make up only ~20% of what I paid them. 🤔

 

I interpret that to mean that they will refund me money that they would have had to forward to 3rd parties, but since no cruise, there are no taxes and government fees, so they MUST refund those to me, else they are opening another whole can of worms (like charging sales/local tax, but not forwarding tax collected to whichever government). 

 

The verbiage of the cancellation letter was not an example of incompetence, it was simply Carnival not wanting to put in writing that they will refund all of my money.  Not worried though, I'm sure my cc company will have zero issues making me whole. 😎

[TooManyWakeUpsTilWeSail]

2 hours ago, hdmaninmb said:

 Personally, I'm foregoing $1,000 in onboard credits by jumping ship. No big deal, it was never mine to begin with.

Just quoting a snippet of your post.  I would never encourage anyone to make a decision based on how I feel (but yeah I’m on your Titanic rowboat).  Folks need to be smart and decide for themselves.  I personally haven’t canceled an October Carnival cruise ONLY because it’s a lost investment (deposits + virtually worthless Carnival gift cards).  

Would I sail IF I feel safe.  Absolutely.  I don’t yet.  My continued work environment is daily temperature checks, rotating work schedules and showers as soon as I come home.  A cruise right now puts me together with SO many more folks than I already see in a public environment. I can’t even imagine FUN in my near future.  But most of us will survive & our FUN memories will be repeated.  Patience.

[Butterbean1000]

On 4/22/2020 at 10:53 AM, boatseller said:

Couple things, we know nothing about the specific merchant agreement between Carnival and the card issuer.  Just because OP got a credit doesn't mean Carnival returned any money.  It's entirely possible this is still coverable by new charges.

So, Carnival and the issuer maybe agreed between themselves to quickly resolve the dispute as a cost cutting measure because it's already cost $200-300 between them in completely unnecessary expenses.  Carnival will eventually process the refund so the card issue is just floating that expense now.

So, good for OP, but this just puts both Carnival and the card issuer in worse positions for everyone else.

 

I was thinking the same thing.  A friend of mine had a simular situation with an airline.  Her cc company all but said they are floating the charge until the airline can get caught up. That is great customer service on the part if the cc company. 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Butterbean1000

[emm126]

1 hour ago, hdmaninmb said:

 

I received cancellation letters from Carnival too. Honestly, the letters themselves hightened my concerns, and raised more red flags.

 

The pertinent language was:

 

"A refund of the government fees and taxes will be processed to the original form of payment...."

 

Read that closely, now read it again. What is missing? Oh, that's right, the "Cruise Rate" that makes up ~80% of the money I gave them- no mention about them refunding that...only mention of them refunding me "government fees and taxes", which make up only ~20% of what I paid them. 🤔

 

I interpret that to mean that they will refund me money that they would have had to forward to 3rd parties, but since no cruise, there are no taxes and government fees, so they MUST refund those to me, else they are opening another whole can of worms (like charging sales/local tax, but not forwarding tax collected to whichever government). 

 

The verbiage of the cancellation letter was not an example of incompetence, it was simply Carnival not wanting to put in writing that they will refund all of my money.  Not worried though, I'm sure my cc company will have zero issues making me whole. 😎

I am not sure if they MUST refund your government fees and taxes, NCL is not refunding that if you choose the FCC which personally I think it is wrong.To me, Carnival and some others are refunding money that is not "theirs" to keep and giving you a FCC for just the cruise portion.I think that is the right thing to do.

[quattrohead]

5 hours ago, hdmaninmb said:

The pertinent language was:

 

"A refund of the government fees and taxes will be processed to the original form of payment...."

They are doing this because they know there will be trouble if they mess with the governments money, that is a big nono.

[seven_37]

Just an update to my situation in case anyone is interested...

 

I submitted the dispute late on Wednesday, then on Thursday I received the credit back to my account along with the information that the card issuer would be investigating the issue.  At the end of the day on Thursday, I also received a notice from my PayPal account of a refund of $250 - this was the method I had used to pay for the original booking fee when we reserved the cruise back over a year ago.  I had not contact PayPal about this nor had I disputed this specific charge (I had only disputed the large, final payment that was due two month before our sail date).  Not sure why it was suddenly refunded, but very strange timing.

[DWolf2020]

They seem to be refunding the March cruises right now.  My cruise was March 25th and I received 2 out of my 3 refunds this week.  Waiting on the third (largest amount).  This is NOT from a credit card dispute, but an actual Carnival refund.

seven_37, if your cruise was March or early April, they could finally be getting to you.

[funcruisingmom]

My daughter received her credit today for March cruise. No credit card dispute done.

 

[Luv2cruz1000]

Anyone who has filed through their credit card Canadian? Interested to hear if Canadian credit cards accepted the dispute! Thanks

[momof4boys]

On 4/17/2020 at 7:03 PM, PhillyFan33579 said:

It is standard procedure for a credit card company to refund the disputed amount when you dispute a charge. Once your credit card company completes their investigation there is a good chance the charges will be reinstated. Also, and this may not matter to you, but it is also fairly common for cruise lines to ban passengers who dispute legitimate charges. 

 We are loyal Carnival cruisers and booked an Alaskan cruise on NCL.  ( June 22). We've been waiting since March 1 for NCL to cancel our cruise. Just got an email today saying they canceled it,  and we can ask for a refund beginning March 7...and we will get our refund in 90 days. I don't care if NCL bans us because we will NEVER book with them again.  Carnival has so much better customer service. 

[cautery]

3 hours ago, momof4boys said:

Carnival has so much better customer service. 

My experience, as well as that of many others, does not tend to support your assertion.

Edited April 25, 2020 by cautery

[seven_37]

On 4/24/2020 at 12:42 PM, DWolf2020 said:

They seem to be refunding the March cruises right now.  My cruise was March 25th and I received 2 out of my 3 refunds this week.  Waiting on the third (largest amount).  This is NOT from a credit card dispute, but an actual Carnival refund.

seven_37, if your cruise was March or early April, they could finally be getting to you.

 

i can confirm that late yesterday (04/26) a refund from carnival was posted with a "transaction date" showing 03/20.  so up to now, carnival has refunded all but approx. $150 of the funds that we had paid for our cancelled march cruise.  not sure if we'll just have to eat that loss, or if that remaining amount will be refunded in a separate transaction.

 

[DWolf2020]

Might be separate, I don't understand how they're "processing" the refunds on their side.  I assume they're trying to go date-by-date and are still working through March.  I also have a feeling they're also basing refunds on the "amount" and only allowing so many refunds at a given time to balance their finances.

[upfee]

To those of you who disputed the charge, did you start your dispute on-line or did you call?

[rico]

9 hours ago, upfee said:

To those of you who disputed the charge, did you start your dispute on-line or did you call?

My card is Capital One. I have just shy of $6,000 in Carnival charges for a cancelled cruise. I called to file the dispute. Had a good long talk with the rep asking every question I could think of so I could make an educated decision whether to dispute or not. She was extremely helpful and walked me through the three possible ways it could go.

[WhaleTailFlCruiser]

On 4/20/2020 at 5:17 AM, hdmaninmb said:

 

Right, but this is totally different.  First, I'm sure your investment company that handled 401(k) accounts wasn't facing an imminent bankruptcy.  Second, Carnival just acquired huge amounts of cash (Billions, with a "B") by offering more stock shares, issuing bonds, etc.  That isn't even counting the $1.353B in "Cash and Short-Term Investments" they had at the end of the last quarter (11/30/19-02/29/20). They have PLENTY of cash on hand, don't be fooled.  I get it that processing refunds might take more time because of the sheer volume of requests, but it certainly isn't because of a shortage of cash.  Probably more like how they choose to prioritize their cash. 

 

There is a lot of misinformed guidance being posted in here, along the lines of "just wait until they give you your money back". That is a fools errand when you consider the financial position that Carnival is currently in. 

 

Depending on who you ask, or which analyst you believe, Carnival has about 12+/- months of liquidity to stay afloat, with all the boats parked.  What if that number is actually 3 months, 6 months, 9 months?  Do you know what happens when they can't fund their debts?  Bankruptcy, restructuring, etc.  What if they use the nuclear option well before they run out of liquidity? In my cursory research, companies are filing for bankruptcy BEFORE they are actually out of cash (just as Frontier recently did).  I'm no bankruptcy attorney, but in my research, once the bk trigger is pulled, no one is getting paid until the court says who gets what.

 

Do you know who is last in line to get paid if they do file bk?  I don't know, but it is probably either you and me, or the shareholders... but I'm sure the bond holders and other creditors get paid first.  At any rate, once they use the nuclear option, good luck seeing one dollar out of them.  

 

Carnival cancelled our (fully paid for) cruise, and consequently, our fully paid for wedding ceremony.  I'm not mad.  I understand they were essentially forced to cancel cruises (i.e. CDC "no sail order"), and I understand the circumstances of the world right now demand it.  We chose a full refund (not yet received) rather than future credits, e.g. re-read paragraphs 1-4 above.

 

I have yet to initiate a dispute with my CC company, but I plan to call them in the next day or so to inquire about the process, and most likely initiate a dispute.  This is called risk mitigation, not fraud.  It might be tricky for me, because I use my cc's for most of my expenses, and pay them off monthly.  As I see it, I have two options:
 

1)  "Trust" and "Hope" that Carnival will refund our money, despite their financial ruin, because they said they would;
 

2)   Mitigate my risk of loss by getting my money back now, else I'll have no recourse if they file for bankruptcy (unless I hire a lawyer to go after Carnival? Not likely a winning proposition).

 

I have no problems with Carnival, have had a lot of fun on previous cruises, and created lots of good memories.  I am sure Carnival has all intentions of refunding everyone's money ("unearned revenue") who is entitled to it, however, they simply might not be able to do it.  This is a business decision.  Just like if/when Carnival files for bankruptcy, and stiffs a whole lot of people out of money, they aren't doing that as a personal gesture...it is a business decision. 

 

I do hope that this pandemic passes very soon, and we can return to some kind of normalcy, and I do hope that Carnival is able to stay afloat, one way or the other.  

 

It isn't fair to judge anyone who is opting to take the "money now" approach, rather than putting all their chips on the "trust" and "hope" board; especially those people who might be in a financial bind as it is.  Full disclosure, I have no significant financial problems currently, however, potentially losing several thousands of dollars on a bad bet ("trusting" and "believing" that Carnival will give me all my money back, like they said they would) is not a position that I want to be in. 

 

Good luck everyone, but don't judge. 

 

 

if Carnival is gonna go bankrupt NCL and RCL will go under well before them. Carnival is in the best position and to say they are going to go bankrupt just isn’t true and comes off as fear mongering 

[hdmaninmb]

2 hours ago, WhaleTailFlCruiser said:

if Carnival is gonna go bankrupt NCL and RCL will go under well before them. Carnival is in the best position and to say they are going to go bankrupt just isn’t true and comes off as fear mongering 

You don't know if it is true or not, whether they will file for bankruptcy.  My speculation comes from looking at the numbers, evaluating their liquidity, and taking into account external factors (such as the current world circumstances).  It is not fear mongering- it is an estimation based on facts.  How do you support your theory that Carnival will NOT file for bankrupcty?  

 

"Bankruptcy" does not mean total liquidation, like many people probably think.  If businesses/corporations file for bankruptcy, it is usually a Chapter 11 bankruptcy (restructuring).  It doesn't mean the company is going away- it normally means they are restructuring their debt (e.g. getting rid of some or all unsecured debt to get a fresh start, to hopefully become profitable again). 

Check out these articles.  In the first one, you'll note first that, once a company files for bankruptcy, an "automatic stay" is put in place, which freezes the company's finances, and protects the company from collection activities.  For example, "Customer Deposits" would probably sit idle for quite a while...
 

https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/bankruptcy/bankruptcy-basics/chapter-11-bankruptcy-basics

 

In this article below, you'll note that "Customer Deposits" (to the extent of $2,600) are 7th in line of priority (secured creditors, i.e. the bond holders of Carnivals recent $4B offering, and others, are at the top of the list).

 

You'll also note that it discusses paying with a credit card. Hmm.... "It is recommended that consumers pay deposits to retailers by using credit cards rather than by writing a check or paying cash. The Fair Credit Billing Act allows consumers to dispute charges with the credit card issuer for unshipped merchandise and have the charge removed from their account. To protect themselves from these chargebacks, the credit card processors may reserve or withhold other funds due to the retailer.  That way, you get your money back from the credit card company rather than the debtor."

 

http://chapter11dallas.com/chapter-11-business-bankruptcy/customer-deposits-507/

I am not a shareholder of RCL or NCLH, so I don't particularly pay attention to their financials; nor is either company holding any of my money.  However, I did recently see that RCL reported on Monday that it "estimates its cash burn to be about $110M to $150M per month as suspension of its three brands continues." 

That is far less than Carnival's published guidance of $1B per month: ("We estimate our liquidity requirements, which include our ongoing ship and administrative operating costs, cash refunds of customer deposits, debt maturities and interest, expected capital improvements, and new ship growth capital not addressed by committed export credit facilities, to be approximately, on average, $1.0 billion per month.") as stated on page 24 of their 10-Q filed on  April 3, 2020. 

So, besides their cash on hand, what "revenue" will they be able to generate in the short term to stop the bleeding? (on a micro scale, this would be similar to an individual who lost their income, and has to fund their expenses with their emergency fund, credit cards, etc. How long can they survive, without income, before they are compelled to file for bankruptcy to get all their creditors off their back?)

 

Talking more about the $4B in secured notes, Carnival will be paying interest semi-annually at a rate of 11.5% interest per year, and those notes mature on April 1, 2023 (meaning, the whole thing has to be paid back on that date). (Page 21 of 10-Q).  

 

They believe they can last for 1 year:

"we have concluded that we will be able to generate sufficient liquidity to satisfy our obligations and remain in compliance with our existing debt covenants for the next twelve months." (Page 8 of 10-Q).

However, here is the caveat emptor:

"The volume and pace of cash refunds could have a material adverse effect on our liquidity and capital resources." (Page 20 of 10-Q, overemphasis mine). 

 

And remember, as of end of Feb 2020, Carnival had almost $5B of Customer Deposits.

 

What exactly do you think is going on right now, and will continue to happen if this COVID-19 stuff, e.g. social distancing, "no sail order", etc. are extended? Not to mention, a whole lot of folks who have lost their jobs, or watched their investments/retirement accounts take dump, etc.   Cruisers who have already made deposits will be making a bank run on Carnival, to get their deposits back, and prospective cruisers will not be scheduling (and paying for) cruises for quite some time.  Cash is, once again, "King".  Discretionary expenses like cruises take a back seat for now, and probably for a while. 

 

1 hour ago, WhaleTailFlCruiser said:

lol bankruptcy by August? 😂😂😂😂

That is my prediction, yes, but I obviously don't know that for sure.  However, I'd love to hear your argument against bankruptcy, that is supported by evidence and reasoning, rather than a "gut feeling".

Look, I don't want Carnival to fail, and I've stated as much.  I'd love to cruise again.  I am a shareholder, and I don't want my remaining shares to be reduced to $0 (I recently went ahead and sold off 2/3 of my CCL shares, leaving the remaining shares in place as a speculative, "wild card" bet).  Ironically, it would actually serve me better if I was in here pumping the company (stock), rather than stating my concerns about their financial situation.  So, when people ARE in here pumping the company, without support evidence, I draw one of two conclusions (ulterior motives): 1- they work for the company or have financial ties; or 2- they are a shareholder and don't want to get caught holding the bag (i.e. "pump and dump"). Despite being a shareholder, and the fact that I have integrity, I can't ignore the math.

 You may now take the stage. 😄

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by hdmaninmb
Added info