Could lifting the ''Jones act'' be a help in this mess.

[ColeThornton]

Just now, Charles4515 said:

 

It has been modified and amended since then. It can be changed.


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I won't hold my breath on that one, Charles.     

[Charles4515]

 
 
I won't hold my breath on that one, Charles.     

I am not. I don’t see any movement to change it. That does not mean it should not be changed or could not be changed.


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[tomv3088]

June 5 is the 100th anniversary of the Jones Act— the law that requires that vessels moving cargo between U.S. ports be American built, American owned and American crewed—is fundamental to our domestic maritime industry.  Today we are asking congress to speak up and support the Jones Act on its 100th anniversary. 

The Jones Act helps support nearly 650,000 jobs across America, with an annual economic impact of more than $150 billion. More importantly to the nation as a whole, the law provides important national, homeland, and economic security benefits. We all should be proud of the contributions we make to our nation under the Jones Act.  

 

I think we need to ask our members of Congress to exclude cruise ships from this law.

 

Write to your members of Congress and let’s get this outdated law modified for us cruisers.

 

tom

[Charles4515]

45 minutes ago, tomv3088 said:

June 5 is the 100th anniversary of the Jones Act— the law that requires that vessels moving cargo between U.S. ports be American built, American owned and American crewed—is fundamental to our domestic maritime industry.  Today we are asking congress to speak up and support the Jones Act on its 100th anniversary. 

The Jones Act helps support nearly 650,000 jobs across America, with an annual economic impact of more than $150 billion. More importantly to the nation as a whole, the law provides important national, homeland, and economic security benefits. We all should be proud of the contributions we make to our nation under the Jones Act.     I think we need to ask our members of Congress to exclude cruise ships from this law.  

Write to your members of Congress and let’s get this outdated law modified for us cruisers.

 

tom

 

 

 

 

I disagree with your positive spin about the Jones Act but the Jones Act is not the act you would want to modify. The act that affects cruise itineraries is the PVSA (Passenger Vessel Service Act) of 1886.  

 

I am in favor of making changes but you don’t make a case for it. You say write to Congress that they should modify it for us cruisers. Why would that be convincing?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2020 by Charles4515

[Shmoo here]

1 hour ago, tomv3088 said:

I think we need to ask our members of Congress to exclude cruise ships from this law.

The Jones Act does not cover passenger vessels.

[tomv3088]

Whenever I ask why I have to stop at a foreign country, like a round trip Seattle to Alaska cruise, I was told that we must make a stop in a foreign country, Canada, before we can return to the US. Is there another Act that dictates ‘‘tis or is there another part of the Jones Act?

[tomv3088]

The Jones Act (also known as the Passenger Services Act) does not allow ships of Non-U.S registry to embark and debark guests at two different U.S ports, since travel between U.S. ports is prohibited on foreign flagged ships.

[ColeThornton]

7 minutes ago, tomv3088 said:

Whenever I ask why I have to stop at a foreign country, like a round trip Seattle to Alaska cruise, I was told that we must make a stop in a foreign country, Canada, before we can return to the US. Is there another Act that dictates ‘‘tis or is there another part of the Jones Act?

 

It seems like you haven't even read this thread.  This has all been discussed.

[d9704011]

3 minutes ago, tomv3088 said:

travel between U.S. ports is prohibited on foreign flagged ships.

No it’s not.  Cruise ships go from Fort Lauderdale to Los Angeles on a regular basis.  They call in at a distant foreign port and are totally in compliance with the PVSA which is entirely different from the Jones Act.

[Shmoo here]

15 minutes ago, tomv3088 said:

Whenever I ask why I have to stop at a foreign country, like a round trip Seattle to Alaska cruise, I was told that we must make a stop in a foreign country, Canada, before we can return to the US. Is there another Act that dictates ‘‘tis or is there another part of the Jones Act?

 

10 minutes ago, tomv3088 said:

The Jones Act (also known as the Passenger Services Act) does not allow ships of Non-U.S registry to embark and debark guests at two different U.S ports, since travel between U.S. ports is prohibited on foreign flagged ships.

No.  The Jones Act pertains to cargo.  The Passenger Vessel Services Act pertains to passenger vessels.  Two different laws.

 

The PVSA says that a foreign flagged ship cannot transport passengers from one US port to a different US port without a stop in a distant foreign port.  A round trip cruise out of a US port must stop at any foreign port.

[Aquahound]

39 minutes ago, tomv3088 said:

Whenever I ask why I have to stop at a foreign country, like a round trip Seattle to Alaska cruise, I was told that we must make a stop in a foreign country, Canada, before we can return to the US. Is there another Act that dictates ‘‘tis or is there another part of the Jones Act?

 

35 minutes ago, tomv3088 said:

The Jones Act (also known as the Passenger Services Act) does not allow ships of Non-U.S registry to embark and debark guests at two different U.S ports, since travel between U.S. ports is prohibited on foreign flagged ships.

 

Under the Jones Act, the statute that provides for penalties is 46USC55102. The statute that provides for penalties for passenger vessels, aka PVSA, is 46USC55103.  Yes, that's only 1 number apart but still, it does differentiate between the 2 acts.  It is VERY common to call it the Jones Act, as many have done in this thread but the folks who corrected it and said PVSA are correct.   

[sparks1093]

10 hours ago, tomv3088 said:

June 5 is the 100th anniversary of the Jones Act— the law that requires that vessels moving cargo between U.S. ports be American built, American owned and American crewed—is fundamental to our domestic maritime industry.  Today we are asking congress to speak up and support the Jones Act on its 100th anniversary. 

The Jones Act helps support nearly 650,000 jobs across America, with an annual economic impact of more than $150 billion. More importantly to the nation as a whole, the law provides important national, homeland, and economic security benefits. We all should be proud of the contributions we make to our nation under the Jones Act.  

 

I think we need to ask our members of Congress to exclude cruise ships from this law.

 

Write to your members of Congress and let’s get this outdated law modified for us cruisers.

 

tom

Others have corrected your use of the wrong law, but if you carefully read this thread you will find many reasons why the PVSA is still needed today. In addition support from passengers is not going to be enough to see the Act modified, it would take support from the cruise industry itself and as also mentioned in this thread they see no economic benefit to them for such a modification. 

[tomv3088]

I guess I read too many WRONG posts and Googled information that turned out to be incorrect. Thank everyone foe putting me back on course. 
 

tom

[ldubs]

On 4/20/2020 at 5:56 PM, dolittle said:

I know many on this site (me also) are sick of the Jones Act but getting rid of it fro a year or two  might be a good thing in this mess.You could have cruises doing the east and west coast keeping all that money in the U.S .It would help many states tourist inds. and many would go to places they would have never been . Just look at the map and there are many great stops on both coasts . It would help with those who are fearful of flying in this new world. Ships could start in the east and go south and in Fla. the reverse . Think of N.Y.city as a stop . It would be great on the west coast . I know the down side is the linear nature of the coasts ,it is a long haul but they could leave from many cities along the coasts . What do you think ,would you be interested in these ports . I think many would like to see these parts of the U.S. .What places on the coasts would you like to see.

 

Back to the OP and title of this thread.   There is another thread talking about the possibility of a cruise to only UK ports with only UK passengers.  Apparently one line is talking with UK public health about the possibility of doing this.   So I suppose there could be some potential benefit of doing something similar in America, but am doubtful the cruise lines would ever be willing or able to adhere to US laws in order to do this.   And, I'm still not sure the laws should change to accommodate something like this.  

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

Back to the OP and title of this thread.   There is another thread talking about the possibility of a cruise to only UK ports with only UK passengers.  Apparently one line is talking with UK public health about the possibility of doing this.   So I suppose there could be some potential benefit of doing something similar in America, but am doubtful the cruise lines would ever be willing or able to adhere to US laws in order to do this.   And, I'm still not sure the laws should change to accommodate something like this.  

That discussion is limited to Cunard, and Princess whose ships, registered in the UK and Bermuda (as a British Overseas Territory), are allowed to make coastwise voyages in the UK.

[ldubs]

4 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

That discussion is limited to Cunard, and Princess whose ships, registered in the UK and Bermuda (as a British Overseas Territory), are allowed to make coastwise voyages in the UK.

 

I have no reason to doubt you but I thought that discussion referenced Viking's interest in the UK-only concept.  Anyway, I was just talking about the concept as it relates to a limited home-based cruise.  

[SRF]

22 hours ago, tomv3088 said:

June 5 is the 100th anniversary of the Jones Act— the law that requires that vessels moving cargo between U.S. ports be American built, American owned and American crewed—is fundamental to our domestic maritime industry.  Today we are asking congress to speak up and support the Jones Act on its 100th anniversary. 

The Jones Act helps support nearly 650,000 jobs across America, with an annual economic impact of more than $150 billion. More importantly to the nation as a whole, the law provides important national, homeland, and economic security benefits. We all should be proud of the contributions we make to our nation under the Jones Act.  

 

I think we need to ask our members of Congress to exclude cruise ships from this law.

 

Write to your members of Congress and let’s get this outdated law modified for us cruisers.

 

tom

 

The Jones Act does not apply to cruise ships.

 

The Jones Act, as you stated, applies to moving CARGO.

[SRF]

As has been stated before, the PVSA only restricts non-US Flag ships to embarking and disembarking passengers to the SAME port.  IOW, close loop cruises.  And the cruise lines have NO INTEREST in moving people from one port to another.  

 

The restrictions against cruises to Nowhere is a Customs and Border Protection issue, and it has to do with the type of visas the crew have.  It is NOT a PVSA issue.

 

 

 

 

[ldubs]

6 minutes ago, SRF said:

  And the cruise lines have NO INTEREST in moving people from one port to another.  

 

 

 

One American port to another American port?  I agree.  It would be too costly to comply.   

[njhorseman]

13 minutes ago, SRF said:

As has been stated before, the PVSA only restricts non-US Flag ships to embarking and disembarking passengers to the SAME port.  IOW, close loop cruises.  And the cruise lines have NO INTEREST in moving people from one port to another.  

 

The restrictions against cruises to Nowhere is a Customs and Border Protection issue, and it has to do with the type of visas the crew have.  It is NOT a PVSA issue.

 

 

 

 

 Not only closed loop cruises...the PVSA also restricts non-US flag ships from embarking in one US port and disembarking in another, but also permits it if the ship calls on a distant foreign port.

 

In other words, a non-US flagged ship needs to make a foreign port call for a legal closed loop cruise and needs to make distant foreign port call for a legal cruise with different US embarkation and disembarkation ports, sometimes called an open jaw cruise.

 

You are correct about the cruise to nowhere prohibition being a CBP ruling about visa requirements for the crew.

[SRF]

I was not going into the exceptions.

 

And the cruise lines do use this for repositioning.  We are booked on Brilliance of the Seas from Boston to Tampa, via Aruba and Curacao.

 

But this cruise is because RCI wants to move the ship from one port to another.  NOT because they want to transport people from one port to another.  If they wanted to move the ship from Ft Lauderdale to Port Canaveral, they would just sail empty.

[njhorseman]

57 minutes ago, SRF said:

I was not going into the exceptions.

 

And the cruise lines do use this for repositioning.  We are booked on Brilliance of the Seas from Boston to Tampa, via Aruba and Curacao.

 

But this cruise is because RCI wants to move the ship from one port to another.  NOT because they want to transport people from one port to another.  If they wanted to move the ship from Ft Lauderdale to Port Canaveral, they would just sail empty.

 

They don't just do this for repositioning. I have taken a couple of cruises on a NY City-based ship that started in NY and ended in California...once in Los Angeles and once in San Francisco. The ship then  returned to its NY home port, in one case immediately and in the other after a single seven day closed loop Mexican cruise from LA. Over 95% of the 2,000 + passengers on each cruise disembarked in California and were replaced by new passengers. When the ship returned to NY it resumed its more typical Caribbean itineraries. We were among the less than 5% who stayed on for the return trip.( Including the Mexican cruise in the one case. )

 

Many of the cruisers were using the ships as one way transportation in combination with vacation. Rather than flying round trip between NY and California they flew one way and cruised the other. Obviously the cruise line's intent wasn't to have the ship functions as a ferry, but in fact that's exactly how it was used by many.

Edited June 8, 2020 by njhorseman

[CPT Trips]

On 4/30/2020 at 7:17 PM, chengkp75 said:

Tell that to the Portland Chamber of Commerce.  Cruise passengers spend an average of $62 per person during their port calls in Maine, which is about half of what the average spending for tourists coming to Portland spend.

Time to raise the price of lobster and Allagash.

[CPT Trips]

On 4/22/2020 at 7:27 PM, dolittle said:

B.T.W. I do not think the Phila. port was in the Navy Yard it was near Penn's landing . There had a Celebrity ship at one time .

 

On 4/22/2020 at 7:36 PM, chengkp75 said:

 

Well, the address of the defunct Philadelphia Cruise Terminal is 5100 S. Broad St, which is in the Navy Yard.  And, if it was at Penn's landing, you would have to go under the Whitman Bridge, which is even lower, at 153' high. 

If anyone cares, you are both correct. Cruises did depart from both Penn’s Landing and the old Navy Yard. 
NCL, Royal Caribbean, and Carnival all had a few cruises a year in the early part of the century from the Navy Yard. It wasn’t really a very good set up. I recall processing through tents, and they later used a rehabbed factory. Made the old Bayonne facility look good.
I remember driving my in-laws to a cruise from Penn’s Landing in the 70s or 80s and picking them up at the end of the cruise. That was even worse as there was a temporary processing facility and a confused traffic flow.

[K32682]

What qualifies as "distant" and what is the definition of "port of call."  Would it possible to have a closed loop that started in Washington, dropped anchor in Vancouver but not disembark passengers and then proceeded to Alaska?