Princess new health guidelines..will X follow suit!

[yorky]

1 hour ago, Mark_T said:

I've read through the Princess web site and I can't actually find any reference to the "underlying severe chronic medical conditions" requirement mentioned in the CC article... Does anyone have a link that shows this limitation on the Princess site?

 

Even if it is there somewhere, I still think they are using the wrong language, severe refers to the intensity of something, usually on a range, i.e. mild, moderate or severe.

The term “severe” is not the same as serious, for example,  a headache can be severe, but insignificant from a medical perspective. Seriousness seems to be the right factor to be considering, not severity. 

Yep they really need to look again and be far more explicit because it’s confusing. If you are going to potentially refuse boarding to someone who may have flown around the world at great cost and even threaten  legal action for a false declaration the details need to be far clearer. There is way too much ambiguity.

[ready2cruzagain]

I have asthma and in my early 50's.  My asthma is controlled with medication. Asthma is a chronic disease so does this mean according to Princess I will not be able to sail on their cruise line again? Really starting to get confused on all these new rules.

[yorky]

1 hour ago, ready2cruzagain said:

I have asthma and in my early 50's.  My asthma is controlled with medication. Asthma is a chronic disease so does this mean according to Princess I will not be able to sail on their cruise line again? Really starting to get confused on all these new rules.

Asthma is an interesting one. I have mild Asthma, indeed one in six people in the UK have Asthma. Those at serious risk of Covid 19 in this country received a letter stating they had to self isolate for 12 weeks. I did not receive a letter because it’s only individuals with severe Asthma which is detailed quite specifically over here as taking a mix of three meds including steroids to control it. I don’t see any mention of Asthma on the Celebrity fit to cruise form and I take it Princess is the same. There are a list of conditions which are listed however people are stating it applies to ANY cronic condition. This is where the cruise lines need to be more specific if they are looking to stop people boarding or threatening possible legal action. I believe that many people with  mild Asthma will not consider themselves on that list. I would guess that possible action would be taken against individuals trying to cover up very serious conditions that are already listed but I would certainly be very upset if denied boarding because of a mild condition not listed. People need a full list in advance in my view rather than spending thousands only to be denied boarding, not everyone is on cruise critic or as aware as many of us are. I’m guessing one or two will say no that’s each individuals responsibility to be aware in advance but life does not work like that. I will say though that I believe these restrictions will be temporary.

Edited April 24, 2020 by yorky

[Georgia_Peaches]

12 hours ago, Fouremco said:

"During the cruise, anyone found to have falsified their answers will be disembarked at the next port of call. Additionally, anyone who does not disclose symptoms of illness may face legal consequences."

This was exactly the part I was talking about.  I should have been more precise.  Thank you for pulling out this detail.  I think it's an important detail because I am sure there are some people who will stretch the truth if they really want to cruise.  Although, I have no idea how Princess would monitor for "falsified answers".

[Georgia_Peaches]

3 hours ago, Ronin23 said:

If you have a chronic, pre existing condition then why would you book knowing the policy?

Great question!  Personally, I wouldn't.  But there is no accounting for what some people will do.

[hcat]

From a local news channel website News12 LI NY

Study: 3 comorbidities key factors in COVID-19 patient recovery

 

☰

Study: 3 comorbidities key factors in COVID-19 patient recovery

 

Posted: Apr 24, 2020 7:34 AMUpdated: Apr 24, 2020 7:34 AM

A team of researchers analyzing the health records of coronavirus patients that were hospitalized at New York State's largest health system, Northwell Health, uncovered several comorbidities as key factors in the acuity of the disease, according to a report in The Journal of the American Medical Association.

The Northwell Health COVID-19 Research Consortium described the clinical course and outcomes of 5,700 Northwell patients hospitalized with COVID-19 between March 1 and April 4.

 

The Northwell Health Covid-19 Research Consortium's findings demonstrated that hypertension at 57%, obesity at 41% and diabetes at 34% were the most common comorbidities in the COVID-19 patients studied.Patients with diabetes were more likely to have received invasive mechanical ventilation, received treatment in the intensive care unit or developed acute kidney disease.

 

The study shows of the 2,634 hospitalized patients, 14% were treated in the ICU, 12% received invasive mechanical ventilation and 3% were treated with kidney replacement therapy.

A total of 21% passed away, while 88% of individuals receiving mechanical ventilation died.

 

In addition, the study shows that the majority of patients in the study were male, and the median age of all patients being treated was 63 years old.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[llawrence]

Does this study explain what type of diabetes?  Type 1...type 2.....pre diabetic?
There is a big difference.....are the patients on insulin or metformin?  
High blood pressure.......what category....I have found the studies tend to be so general ,you can not obtain a good picture of the true risks.

[alwaysonaship]

Personally I just don’t think cruising is worth it anymore. After 55 cruises we are finished. This whole thing is out of hand and we are not going to jump through hoops just to get on another ship. 

[Georgia_Peaches]

Just now, alwaysonaship said:

Personally I just don’t think cruising is worth it anymore. After 55 cruises we are finished. This whole thing is out of hand and we are not going to jump through hoops just to get on another ship. 

I'm feeling pulled in that direction as well.  Especially after reading a thread on RCL board regarding the wearing of face masks.  I just don't want to cruise that way.  I know things will have to be different and that might be ok for anyone who has never cruised before, but for us veteran cruisers, IDK if the new normal, whatever that may be, will be all that enticing.

[Ride-The-Waves]

Working this exact issue with Uniworld, a river cruise company, and have cruises with X and Princess on the books.

 

All three companies now adhere to guidance from the US CDC and from CLIA.  Reading both provides the perspective that chronic (long term) medical conditions are, and will be, a non-go for cruising.  As someone pointed out, most seniors have one or more "chronic" condition, but well controlled with medication.  

 

Uniworld has my full fare and the TA its share of commission.  Neither are anxious to refund.  That said, I have been trying to obtain a refund using the CDC/CLIA guidance and the fact that if we are not "healthy enough" to cruise with them today we surely won't be healthy enough in a year or more.  FCC is useless.  Crickets!  They don't have an answer.  Management/ownership (and their lawyers) are caught between reality of the guidance and their desire to keep your money at almost all costs.  It's almost as if they are saying "so sue me" for your refund.

 

Next step is to engage the travel insurance folks.  This new guidance, issued after booking, is not directly pandemic related for which they state they are not paying claims.  It's a health condition implemented after booking and one that the cruise lines state will preclude boarding.  Know this is going to become a push back from both sides, each referring to the other as the responsible party.  I sense class action suits galore.  "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" - Shakespeare Henry VI.

 

As I have suggested earlier in other threads, cruising post-COVID-19 (and that may be years since the US CDC is suggesting that the next flu season will be combined flu/coronavirus and very difficult to deal with) will be significantly different from the past norm.  I doubt that the mega-ships with 5,000-plus passengers and 2,000 crew will be very popular.  Smaller ships, less than 1,000 passengers, are easier to manage health-wise based on experience with norovirus.  They are, however, more expensive and less attractive to younger cruisers looking for onboard adventure.  New normal!

[PTC DAWG]

5 hours ago, verizon said:

The best solution is Test and Quarantine all cruisers for 14 days before they get embark for cruising.

Same as ALL CREW members. 

It sound crazy but that is the safest way before we have cure or vaccine.

Quarantine is what you do to infected people. 

[phoenix_dream]

The part about falsifying their questionnaire is particularly disturbing.  Let's say you feel fine, have not been sick, and answer accordingly.  Then the next day you present with symptoms (if it is flu, for example, it can present very quickly and severely).  What is to prevent them from accusing you of falsifying your report (which you did NOT) and dumping you in the next port of call left (sick) to your own devices??  The answer is - nothing.  You have no recourse and cannot prove them wrong, even if they are.  And to potentially face a lawsuit??  I would never sail under these circumstances.

Edited April 24, 2020 by phoenix_dream

[TeeRick]

These guidelines from Princess are a point of discussion and a place to start.  But I think anyway that it is likely that they will be superseded by new guidelines (or more likely enforceable rules) once the cruise industry gets back to business.  There will likely be preconditions that must be met if we look at the direction of the US CDC.  Princess will have the same new rules and procedures as every other line in Carnival Corporation.  And perhaps the exact same as every other operating cruise line like RCCL as a requirement for resuming operations.  IMO focusing on these current Princess guidelines at this point in time is about as irrelevant as worrying about the 70+ doctor's note.  We just need to wait and see what will be required in the brave new world of cruising post-pandemic.  We here on CC can of course continue to speculate because we need to do something to pass the time instead of cruising!

[llawrence]

So true.....but I was told by Celebrity resolutions department, yesterday, that the over 70 fit to cruise note will be in place at least through the end of the year...we have a Nov 2020 cruise booked....so we are concerned....

[Fouremco]

3 hours ago, ready2cruzagain said:

I have asthma and in my early 50's.  My asthma is controlled with medication. Asthma is a chronic disease so does this mean according to Princess I will not be able to sail on their cruise line again? Really starting to get confused on all these new rules.

 

2 hours ago, yorky said:

I don’t see any mention of Asthma on the Celebrity fit to cruise form and I take it Princess is the same. There are a list of conditions which are listed however people are stating it applies to ANY cronic condition.

As it is meant to be completed by a physician, the Celebrity Fit To Travel form only provides examples, not a complete list of chronic illness that could make passengers susceptible to complications should they catch COVID-19. While asthma is not included in Celebrity's examples, the CDC warns that "People with moderate to severe asthma may be at higher risk of getting very sick from COVID-19.  COVID-19 can affect your respiratory tract (nose, throat, lungs), cause an asthma attack, and possibly lead to pneumonia and acute respiratory disease."

[az_tchr]

17 minutes ago, llawrence said:

So true.....but I was told by Celebrity resolutions department, yesterday, that the over 70 fit to cruise note will be in place at least through the end of the year...we have a Nov 2020 cruise booked....so we are concerned....

Since COVID will be around until at least spring or summer of 2021, why would you consider cruising if you have what you consider "serious" underlying condition.  DW is making several doc visits to diagnose a condition.  None would be willing to sign a note as they felt liability issues AND said cruising until COVID vaccine available would be unwise (that was the nicest comment. Others used "crazy" and "dumb").

I understand disappointment, but concern?  Why not wait till August and see how things look then?

Giving an example of asthma - it is certainly a chronic condition, but how does one determine serious vs. moderate?  The issue here is if you have asthma and it flares to require treatment on board it would likely be at that time serious and you could be disembarked.

Edited April 24, 2020 by az_tchr

[helen haywood]

It's one thing to debate whether the over 70 doctor's form issue will be in place whenever cruising resumes and things settle down a bit.  It's entirely another for people over 70 with health issues who currently are holding FCCs, debating whether to ask for a refund, or approaching a final payment.  They need answers now that, unfortunately, aren't forthcoming.  

[llawrence]

Helen you nailed it......That is the issue....

[adjustman]

Sorry. I personally believe that Carnival owned Princess and Holland America are giving cruisers lip service when they say the safety and well being of its cruisers are its highest priority. All of the cruises in which passengers have died were on Carnival owned ships. it seems odd that none of the other cruise lines including NCL, RCL, MSC have had the deadly problems that Carnival has had. I would not believe anything a Carnival spokesman says. Please refer to the Bloomberg article in which it said that Carnival executives allowed the partying to continue while its passengers became sick. Carnival gives cruising a bad name. This is not to say the other cruise lines don't have their problems. But nothing like Carnival. As you can tell I am out raged over the problems Princess and Holland America have experienced. If I were a Carnival board member I would ask senior management to resign over their conduct.

 

 

all of the

[ECCruise]

44 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

Quarantine is what you do to infected people. 

 

quar·an·tine

/ˈkwôrənˌtēn/

noun

 

1. a state, period, or place of isolation in which people or animals that have arrived from elsewhere or been exposed to infectious or contagious disease are placed.

[az_tchr]

54 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Working this exact issue with Uniworld, a river cruise company, and have cruises with X and Princess on the books.

 

All three companies now adhere to guidance from the US CDC and from CLIA.  Reading both provides the perspective that chronic (long term) medical conditions are, and will be, a non-go for cruising.  As someone pointed out, most seniors have one or more "chronic" condition, but well controlled with medication.  

 

Uniworld has my full fare and the TA its share of commission.  Neither are anxious to refund.  That said, I have been trying to obtain a refund using the CDC/CLIA guidance and the fact that if we are not "healthy enough" to cruise with them today we surely won't be healthy enough in a year or more.  FCC is useless.  Crickets!  They don't have an answer.  Management/ownership (and their lawyers) are caught between reality of the guidance and their desire to keep your money at almost all costs.  It's almost as if they are saying "so sue me" for your refund.

 

Next step is to engage the travel insurance folks.  This new guidance, issued after booking, is not directly pandemic related for which they state they are not paying claims.  It's a health condition implemented after booking and one that the cruise lines state will preclude boarding.  Know this is going to become a push back from both sides, each referring to the other as the responsible party.  I sense class action suits galore.  "First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" - Shakespeare Henry VI.

 

As I have suggested earlier in other threads, cruising post-COVID-19 (and that may be years since the US CDC is suggesting that the next flu season will be combined flu/coronavirus and very difficult to deal with) will be significantly different from the past norm.  I doubt that the mega-ships with 5,000-plus passengers and 2,000 crew will be very popular.  Smaller ships, less than 1,000 passengers, are easier to manage health-wise based on experience with norovirus.  They are, however, more expensive and less attractive to younger cruisers looking for onboard adventure.  New normal!

The rules in the future and the dilemma of those with FCC will likely be sorted in the courts.  While it seems unlikely cruising will resume in 2020, over half of people over 65 have a chronic condition that is treated by a physician.  Is high blood pressure that is "normal" with meds ok?  How about any respiratory issue such as COPD or asthma?  These are chronic issues that are fine and periodically flare.

Unless you are stuck.with a FCC, run - don't walk - to cancel any cruising with any chronic condition.

[Eglesbrech]

2 hours ago, yorky said:

Asthma is an interesting one. I have mild Asthma, indeed one in six people in the UK have Asthma. Those at serious risk of Covid 19 in this country received a letter stating they had to self isolate for 12 weeks. I did not receive a letter because it’s only individuals with severe Asthma which is detailed quite specifically over here as taking a mix of three meds including steroids to control it. I don’t see any mention of Asthma on the Celebrity fit to cruise form and I take it Princess is the same. There are a list of conditions which are listed however people are stating it applies to ANY cronic condition. This is where the cruise lines need to be more specific if they are looking to stop people boarding or threatening possible legal action. I believe that many people with  mild Asthma will not consider themselves on that list. I would guess that possible action would be taken against individuals trying to cover up very serious conditions that are already listed but I would certainly be very upset if denied boarding because of a mild condition not listed. People need a full list in advance in my view rather than spending thousands only to be denied boarding, not everyone is on cruise critic or as aware as many of us are. I’m guessing one or two will say no that’s each individuals responsibility to be aware in advance but life does not work like that. I will say though that I believe these restrictions will be temporary.

I agree with you, most people with asthma have a chronic condition but many are well controlled and don’t have issues.

 

I also think these types of policies would not comply with the U.K. equality act. No terms and conditions can override legislation and “legitimate aim” could not be used for such blanket provisions.

[true45]

15 hours ago, hcat said:

Makes sense ( and this policy  is Princess not X) ...but not sure what X will do with all the FCCs that have already been issued PRIOR to their med note requirement?  Guess we will find out eventually. Chronic conditions do not usually  go away.

 

Read some place today that  certain high blood pressure meds are "bad " with this virus & obesity a big factor..

 

Looking forward to good news ahead!

We need some happy news!

 

I was wondering what X will do about my NRF deposit on Jan 2021 sailing if we possibly don’t qualify to cruise because of age and high blood pressure (even though it is controlled) or other controlled conditions.  Have no idea if doctor would be reluctant to “certify” our readiness.

 

Seems unfair since when we made the deposit there were no such requirements.  We can only hope the virus isn’t a factor and the requirement goes away.

 

Not happy about the way Rccl parent company is holding onto a lot of pax money — they keep pushing off their own deadline for returning our $600 payment for a cabana on cancelled cruise which is fully refundable.

 

⚓️🏖🌈

Edited April 24, 2020 by true45

[chipmaster]

1 hour ago, adjustman said:

Sorry. I personally believe that Carnival owned Princess and Holland America are giving cruisers lip service when they say the safety and well being of its cruisers are its highest priority. All of the cruises in which passengers have died were on Carnival owned ships. it seems odd that none of the other cruise lines including NCL, RCL, MSC have had the deadly problems that Carnival has had. I would not believe anything a Carnival spokesman says. Please refer to the Bloomberg article in which it said that Carnival executives allowed the partying to continue while its passengers became sick. Carnival gives cruising a bad name. This is not to say the other cruise lines don't have their problems. But nothing like Carnival. As you can tell I am out raged over the problems Princess and Holland America have experienced. If I were a Carnival board member I would ask senior management to resign over their conduct.

 

 

 

Lip service is focused on "just enough" to keep the business going to keep their paycheck and board/stock holders happy.

 

They actions are just enough to keep the customers happy and the authorities from shutting them down.

 

When I go out be for a positive experience the vendors be it dining, drinking, flying, cruising etc. they all are balancing the customer service with the business of making a profit.   Call me a cynic, it is about keeping you just yappy enough you'll not complain and also come back, and not anymore so they can maximize their profit

 

As to the board firing the management, few companies of really independent boards.  BTW the boards job is to have the interest of the stock holders/owners in their eye, but most board members are their because of their close relationship with the senior management and CEO etc. 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by chipmaster

[chipmaster]

17 hours ago, hcat said:

Link to Cruise Critic  article was in our  e mail today.. covering Princess guidelines. It appears quite stringent,..wondering if Celebrity will follow suit...??????   

 

Not sure what amounts to a " underlying severe chronic medical condition".

 

EXCERPT:

 

New Health Guidelines

April 22, 2020

 

Dori Saltzman

Senior Editor

 

(10:35 a.m. EDT) -- Princess Cruises is detailing several new health protocols for its ships, the first in a series of new guidelines it expects to roll out when cruises return to service. Among the more noteworthy elements are possible legal penalties for anyone who is found to have falsified the pre-boarding medical questionnaire and restricting access to boarding for anyone with a severe chronic medical condition. 

The move follows that of Asia-based cruise line, Genting, which put in strict new health guidelines earlier this month.

"Our health monitoring, screening and operational protocols are designed to be both rigorous and flexible, and we are aggressively adapting to changes as they occur," Princess said in a statement listing the new guidelines.  

"We are working closely with public health officials, including the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the World Health Organization (WHO), as well as the Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA), to define and implement best practices to protect the health of our guests and crew as it relates to COVID-19."

The new protocols are divided into pre-cruise, embarkation and onboard. Many of the guidelines are a continuation of the protocols put into place in late February and early March.

Pre-Cruise

Princess Cruises will increase its global monitoring of COVID-19 outbreaks and will proactively cancel or modify itineraries to impacted areas.

The line will also maintain its policy of refusing boarding to booked travelers who meet a variety of criteria including anyone who has been in contact with a suspected or confirmed case of COVID-19; anyone suffering from a fever or flu-like symptoms prior to embarkation; and anyone with underlying severe chronic medical conditions.

 

Guests and crew members who meet these criteria will be unable to sail, with booked passengers receiving a full cruise credit or refund.

Embarkation

On embarkation day, cruisers can expect a robust health screening, starting with mandatory thermal scanning of all guests and crew. Anyone presenting with a fever or flu-like symptoms will be denied boarding, regardless of their recent travel history. All cruisers who are denied boarding due to sickness will be issued a full cruise credit or refund.

Cruisers will also be required to fill out a new health declaration prior to boarding specifically designed to screen for COVID-19. During the cruise, anyone found to have falsified their answers will be disembarked at the next port of call. Additionally, anyone who does not disclose symptoms of illness may face legal consequences............"

 

 

Link to full CC Article...https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5301/?et_cid=3327335&et_rid=16760876&et_referrer=NULL

 

Pretty much specific and ambiguous enough to allow them to do whatever they need to start sailing when each country let's this kind of business start up.