Chris Wong and Riley Tench

[AC Stew]

I'm probably more "pro crew" than most. Seriously. But before we all get outraged about crew gyms and crew social venues being shut down, lets remember that everyone will be dealing with changes. Start up will be challenging ... we'll all be faced with restrictions and rules that we don't like. But we want to cruise, so we'll bite it. Over time, the situation should improve.  Probably some ups and downs, but we'll get there.

 

When I worked on 1,400 pax cruise ships (a lifetime ago), we didn't have gyms or bars. A small crew mess hall, that was it, and only for dining. 4 to 6 girls to a cabin; the bathroom/showers were down the hall. Split shifts were brutal. We did not expect to be entertained; we were there to work.

 

Today, we're still dealing with Covid. A crew member being confined to a cabin with only one other person is not "imprisonment!" Nor is being quarantined in a full size passenger cabin. Frustrating and inconvenient to be sure. A reason to be extra kind to the crew? Absolutely. But the restrictions will not be forever. And In this particular situation, my sympathies can only go so far.

 

 

 

 

[paulh84]

21 hours ago, Vera/Lee said:

I agree with this comment and hope Royal will not accept that kind of treatment to our beloved crew members! Those are truly ridiculous requirements, especially when everyone on the ship has to be vaccinated. 

 

That's the problem. There is no vaccine mandate. The guidelines are designed with the mindset that no one is vaccinated. 

[smokeybandit]

The guidelines are still based on the year old notion that covid is spread on surface transmission, too.

[BecciBoo]

There's only one word to adequately describe this situation...FUBAR...whatever you accept as it's meaning.

[BecciBoo]

4 hours ago, paulh84 said:

 

That's the problem. There is no vaccine mandate. The guidelines are designed with the mindset that no one is vaccinated. 

And amazingly enough, their own website tells everyone that vaccine WILL prevent you from getting the virus, then out of the other side of the mouth, they require all employees to vaccinate....oh but operate under the assumption you can still get it....that is the standard definition of "Hypocrite"  IMHO, nothing that comes out of that organization is clear, concise or following scientific method.  So it's not to be trusted...period.

[cruise wizard]

12 minutes ago, BecciBoo said:

There's only one word to adequately describe this situation...FUBAR...whatever you accept as it's meaning.

 

SNAFU as an alternative description!!!!!!!!!

[paulh84]

11 minutes ago, BecciBoo said:

And amazingly enough, their own website tells everyone that vaccine WILL prevent you from getting the virus, then out of the other side of the mouth, they require all employees to vaccinate....oh but operate under the assumption you can still get it....that is the standard definition of "Hypocrite"  IMHO, nothing that comes out of that organization is clear, concise or following scientific method.  So it's not to be trusted...period.

 

Huh?

 

The cruise lines are free to mandate a vaccine and put it in writing within their plans. That was the strong suggestion by the CDC. But the cruise lines won't do it. Until then, the CDC will operate under the premise that there is not a required vaccination protocol in place. 

 

[BecciBoo]

3 minutes ago, paulh84 said:

 

Huh?

 

The cruise lines are free to mandate a vaccine and put it in writing within their plans. That was the strong suggestion by the CDC. But the cruise lines won't do it. Until then, the CDC will operate under the premise that there is not a required vaccination protocol in place. 

 

What makes you think they won't.  Fain talks about it all the time.

[paulh84]

8 minutes ago, BecciBoo said:

What makes you think they won't.  Fain talks about it all the time.

 

He can talk about the benefits of vaccines all day long. Until a requirement is submitted as part of their return to service plans, talking about it doesn't mean a thing. They continue to sidestep the matter. 

[cruise wizard]

Looks like almost every cruise line will require both crew and passengers to be vaccinated at least 2 weeks prior to boarding.

 

So if all passengers and crew are vaccinated - what is the problem to get started??????? Answer..........red tape / incompetency / we were lied to by the experts / politics - pick one or all.

 

https://www.travelandleisure.com/cruises/cruises-that-allow-vaccinated-travelers

 

 

[Spif Barwunkel]

On a ship with fully vaccinated passengers and crew, the requirements and protocols should still be in place and enforced, but not with the full rigor of intent deemed necessary for non-compliant people in an occasional incommodious environment.

 

There has to be some trust and leeway given to all onboard in knowing that everyone's best interest depends on "everyone's best interest." I mean, cruising has to happen sometime. To go on and on and on without giving it a try - knowing what we know and doing what we've done - negates the progress that has been made when it comes to the health and well-being of folks who just want to get up and go....on a cruise. Restrictions as described by Chris Wong, pertaining to the crew, are indeed too severe and would serve no purpose but to retard the excitement of and desire to get back to work. The hard working ship's crew needs to be just as anxious to get onboard as the passengers in their care.

 

Is it too soon to cruise? Will the Covid numbers always determine whether or not the ships sail, and should they? We may never know where we are if we don't go with what we know. It's a new, old adventure with challenges, no doubt. I'm kinda thinkin' that there are many who are willing to take 'em on, with eyes wide open, of course.   

[cruise wizard]

Perhaps it is good that the CDC and OSHA are not combined - cruisers would be wearing life jackets, helmets and knee / elbow pads all day and have seat belts on all chairs............just as an over abundance of caution. TIC.

[BecciBoo]

1 hour ago, paulh84 said:

Until a requirement is submitted as part of their return to service plans

Yes, so they are waiting for the protocol to come from CDC.....I have no doubts at all that a vaccine requirement will be part of that protocol....so what is your point.  Fain has said more than once they will incorporate any such decisions into their protocols including vaccine.  

Edited April 19, 2021 by BecciBoo

[paulh84]

3 hours ago, BecciBoo said:

Yes, so they are waiting for the protocol to come from CDC.....I have no doubts at all that a vaccine requirement will be part of that protocol....so what is your point.  Fain has said more than once they will incorporate any such decisions into their protocols including vaccine.  

My point is the CDC has already said they aren’t making that call. It’s up to the cruise lines to put together plans that incorporate the CDC guidance but there will likely be no more specific instruction given. There were strongly suggested to include vaccines but it’s not required. The next phase moves into simulated cruises with solid plans approved and in place. We’re waiting on the cruise lines, to act now, not the CDC. 

[smokeybandit]

Cruise lines want current guidance though, not guidance from a year ago which is what they got.

 

Then the CDC has to approve the cruise lines coming up with plans for archaic requirement before test cruises are in place.

Edited April 20, 2021 by smokeybandit

[BecciBoo]

12 hours ago, paulh84 said:

My point is the CDC has already said they aren’t making that call. It’s up to the cruise lines to put together plans that incorporate the CDC guidance but there will likely be no more specific instruction given. There were strongly suggested to include vaccines but it’s not required. The next phase moves into simulated cruises with solid plans approved and in place. We’re waiting on the cruise lines, to act now, not the CDC. 

There is definitely a disconnect here.  How anyone can seriously think cruise lines would willingly not have already developed effective protocols is beyond me.  These simulated cruises with protocols already in place put there accordingly with CDC guidelines have already taken place...do you ever follow  Royal Caribbean Facebook or You tube.  They have demonstrated their current protocols are effective with over 100,000 passengers with only 10 infections, which probably came on the ship at embarkation. These cruises from the Orient have never stopped this last year.  Chris Wong has already reported the crew protocols the CDC has suggested and they are more than ludicrous and more over impossible.  The CDC is in affect destroying a billion dollar business not to mention ruining another industry, the tourist trade that is the main source of income for millions throughout the world simply because the group of "experts" are clueless about cruising and have no common sense whatever.  But you are rightly allowed your opinion, I just don't buy it.  After 25 cruises, I think no one is better equipped to handle a virus than a cruise line. And they have done it effectively for decades.  In fact if you do not think the cruise lines had long range protocols for just such an event when the worlds scientists have been predicting this pandemic for many years, I think you are extremely out of touch. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by BecciBoo

[cruise wizard]

Looks like a vaccination is required for crew and passengers on RCCL.................so another "Recommendation" exceeded. How many more times must the goal posts be moved???? 

 

https://www.royalcaribbean.com/faq/questions/do-i-need-a-covid-vaccine-to-cruise-what-counts-as-proof

[grandgeezer]

4 hours ago, BecciBoo said:

There is definitely a disconnect here.  How anyone can seriously think cruise lines would willingly not have already developed effective protocols is beyond me.  These simulated cruises with protocols already in place put there accordingly with CDC guidelines have already taken place...do you ever follow  Royal Caribbean Facebook or You tube.  They have demonstrated their current protocols are effective with over 100,000 passengers with only 10 infections, which probably came on the ship at embarkation. These cruises from the Orient have never stopped this last year.  Chris Wong has already reported the crew protocols the CDC has suggested and they are more than ludicrous and more over impossible.  The CDC is in affect destroying a billion dollar business not to mention ruining another industry, the tourist trade that is the main source of income for millions throughout the world simply because the group of "experts" are clueless about cruising and have no common sense whatever.  But you are rightly allowed your opinion, I just don't buy it.  After 25 cruises, I think no one is better equipped to handle a virus than a cruise line. And they have done it effectively for decades.  In fact if you do not think the cruise lines had long range protocols for just such an event when the worlds scientists have been predicting this pandemic for many years, I think you are extremely out of touch. 

What would you expect Chris to say? He's an employee of the line and he needs the job. If I'm not mistaken, he works in the casino. Unless he has a doctorate degree in infectious diseases and could make more money working on a cruise ship, his is just a biased opinion.

Those cruises mentioned have very little merit. The cruise lines could not survive if they had to stay status quo. Why do you think there are so few of them compared to the number of ships doing nothing?

I've got 47 cruises, with just short of 500 days at sea and I think the cruise lines are marking time, hoping it will go away on it's own.

[paulh84]

5 hours ago, BecciBoo said:

There is definitely a disconnect here.  How anyone can seriously think cruise lines would willingly not have already developed effective protocols is beyond me.  These simulated cruises with protocols already in place put there accordingly with CDC guidelines have already taken place...do you ever follow  Royal Caribbean Facebook or You tube.  They have demonstrated their current protocols are effective with over 100,000 passengers with only 10 infections, which probably came on the ship at embarkation. These cruises from the Orient have never stopped this last year.  Chris Wong has already reported the crew protocols the CDC has suggested and they are more than ludicrous and more over impossible.  The CDC is in affect destroying a billion dollar business not to mention ruining another industry, the tourist trade that is the main source of income for millions throughout the world simply because the group of "experts" are clueless about cruising and have no common sense whatever.  But you are rightly allowed your opinion, I just don't buy it.  After 25 cruises, I think no one is better equipped to handle a virus than a cruise line. And they have done it effectively for decades.  In fact if you do not think the cruise lines had long range protocols for just such an event when the worlds scientists have been predicting this pandemic for many years, I think you are extremely out of touch. 

 

If these protocols are so effective, properly submit them to the CDC for evaluation and let's get on with business. I'm not talking about the "Healthy Sail Panel" which was the equivalent of telling people to wash their hands. Real actual procedures and documented policies like they are so used to providing. The documents are public. It clearly says these are recommendations (not hard and fast requirements) and exceptions can be made for ships that maintain a Green, Orange or Yellow status. This is a worst case scenario for ships that have no vaccine requirement and/or are in Red status. 

 

7 of these 14 bullet points are no brainer simple things to implement. 

 

To reduce spread of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, CDC recommends that cruise ship operators:

• Explore options to vaccinate crew for COVID-19. This includes encouraging crew to get the COVID-19 vaccine when eligible and the vaccine is available.
• Relocate all crew to single-occupancy cabins with private bathrooms
• Instruct crew members to remain in cabins as much as possible during non-working hours
• Cancel all face-to-face employee meetings, group events (such as employee trainings), or social gatherings
• Close all crew bars, gyms, and other group settings
• Implement social distancing of crew members when working or moving through the ship (maintaining at least 6 feet [2 meters] from others)
• Instruct crew members to wear a face mask when outside of individual cabins
• Modify meal service to facilitate social distancing (e.g., reconfigure dining room seating, stagger mealtimes, encourage in-cabin dining)
• Eliminate self-serve dining options at all crew and officer messes
• Discourage handshaking – encourage the use of non-contact methods of greeting
• Promote respiratory and hand hygiene and cough etiquette
• Place hand sanitizer (containing at least 60% alcohol) in multiple locations and in sufficient quantities to encourage hand hygiene
• Ensure handwashing facilities are well-stocked with soap and paper towels
• Place posters that encourage hand hygiene to help stop the spread in high-trafficked areas

Some exceptions to these measures can be made for those ships that have met the “Green”, “Orange”, or “Yellow” criteria. See COVID-19 Color-coding System for Cruise Ships During the Initial Phases of Conditional Sailing Order.

 

 

Green Ship Criteria

• No confirmed cases of COVID-19 or COVID-19-like illness for 14 days, as determined by a qualified medical professional.

• If the ship received ship-to-ship transfers within the past 14 days, crew must have come from a ship that had no confirmed COVID-19 or COVID-19-like illness within the 14 days before the transfer occurred.

• If land-based crew embarked, they were immediately quarantined for 14 days upon embarking the ship.

Note: To maintain Green status, ships must submit a daily EDC form to CDC. Failure to submit by 0900 ET each day changes ship status to Red. Green ship status means that CDC considers the ship to be currently unaffected by COVID-19 based on information provided by the cruise ship operator.

Orange Ship Criteria

Orange ship status in the absence of pre-existing Red ship status or a case report on the same day that would change the ship’s status to Red.

• One or more cases of confirmed COVID-19 among newly embarking crew that:
  • Were diagnosed within their embarkation 14-day quarantine period,
  • As determined by a qualified medical professional, had a non-contact embarkation process and no close contacts were identified during the embarkation process (i.e., absence of exposures during embarkation), and
  • The ship had no other confirmed cases of COVID-19 onboard during the past 14-days.

• OR
   
• One or more cases of COVID-19-like illness with negative or repeatedly inconclusive/invalid (i.e., never able to register a positive or negative result) NAAT results for COVID-19 within the past 14-days (with no other laboratory-confirmed respiratory pathogens (e.g., influenza, RSV, Legionella, Streptococcal pharyngitis))
  • Diagnosed either within or outside of their embarkation 14-day quarantine period, and
  • The ship had no other confirmed cases of COVID-19 onboard during the past 14-days.
• If the ship received ship-to-ship transfers within the past 14 days, crew must have come from a ship that had no confirmed COVID-19 or COVID-19-like illness within the 14 days before the transfer occurred.
• If land-based crew embarked, they were immediately quarantined for 14 days upon embarking the ship.

Yellow Ship Criteria

• Ship was previously designated Green or Orange, but now has 1 or more COVID-19-like illness cases pending SARS-CoV-2 NAAT due to lack of onboard testing capability (e.g., ran out of testing cartridges or ship is still within 60-day Phase 1 CSO requirements).
  • If all cases are NAAT-negative, ship status goes to Orange
  • If any cases are NAAT-positive, ship status changes to Red (must re-sign attestation after meeting Green criteria again)
  • If crew with COVID-19-like illness are not tested by NAAT or if results are not available within 1 week of the first case being reported, ship status changes to Red.
• If the ship received ship-to-ship transfers within the past 14 days, crew must have come from a ship that had no confirmed COVID-19 or COVID-19-like illness within the 14 days before the transfer occurred. If not, ship status changes to Red.
• If land-based crew embarked, they were immediately quarantined for 14 days upon embarking the ship. If not, ship status changes to Red.

Red Ship Criteria

• One or more cases of confirmed COVID-19 that do not meet criteria for Orange status, or
• Ship received ship-to-ship transfers from a ship that had confirmed COVID-19 or COVID-19-like illness within the 14 days before the transfer occurred, or
• If land-based crew embarked, they were not immediately quarantined for 14 days upon embarking the ship, or
• During the past 14 days, the ship missed one or more daily submissions of the EDC form.

[BecciBoo]

I appreciate all the long time and research you did, but that's not what we were discussing at all.  You said the cruise lines were not doing anything to implement the CDC guideline and that is simply not true.  If you refuse to believe that go ahead.  No skin off my nose.  But cruise lines would have to be pretty stupid to shoot themselves in the foot like that when they need to start revenue back up ASAP.  BTW, I had already read every sentence of what you posted, thanks anyway.

 

[paulh84]

7 minutes ago, BecciBoo said:

I appreciate all the long time and research you did, but that's not what we were discussing at all.  You said the cruise lines were not doing anything to implement the CDC guideline and that is simply not true.  If you refuse to believe that go ahead.  No skin off my nose.  But cruise lines would have to be pretty stupid to shoot themselves in the foot like that when they need to start revenue back up ASAP.  BTW, I had already read every sentence of what you posted, thanks anyway.

 

 

You're most welcome. 

[dswallow]

Many of the the things the CDC "guidelines" talked about have been done on cruise ships for years, already. If Royal Caribbean put out any more hand sanitizer stations than they've had around ships the last 4 years, we'd be swimming in the stuff non-stop from sunrise to bedtime. There was just way too much stupid ignorant crap like that to take much in the guidelines seriously at all. They were quite clearly intended as an impediment of creating a "conditional sailing" order that was impossible to satisfy so for everything but name, it was just like the previous "no sail" order.

 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by dswallow

[DCGuy64]

On 4/20/2021 at 9:38 AM, BecciBoo said:

There is definitely a disconnect here.  How anyone can seriously think cruise lines would willingly not have already developed effective protocols is beyond me.  These simulated cruises with protocols already in place put there accordingly with CDC guidelines have already taken place...do you ever follow  Royal Caribbean Facebook or You tube.  They have demonstrated their current protocols are effective with over 100,000 passengers with only 10 infections, which probably came on the ship at embarkation. These cruises from the Orient have never stopped this last year.  Chris Wong has already reported the crew protocols the CDC has suggested and they are more than ludicrous and more over impossible.  The CDC is in affect destroying a billion dollar business not to mention ruining another industry, the tourist trade that is the main source of income for millions throughout the world simply because the group of "experts" are clueless about cruising and have no common sense whatever.  But you are rightly allowed your opinion, I just don't buy it.  After 25 cruises, I think no one is better equipped to handle a virus than a cruise line. And they have done it effectively for decades.  In fact if you do not think the cruise lines had long range protocols for just such an event when the worlds scientists have been predicting this pandemic for many years, I think you are extremely out of touch. 

You are spot on, @BecciBoo. By way of analogy:

Imagine you go to a local bank to get a loan. The bank denies your request because you haven't had a loan with them previously or any bank accounts, and the only way they'll lend you money is if you do those things. But you point out that you've had, and paid off, loans with other institutions and have money there, too, so they can check your references and see you're good for it. "Not unless you put $100,000 on deposit as guarantee for your $10,000 loan."

With some obvious differences, that's essentially the CDC right now. The cruise lines can point to successful sailings elsewhere, but the CDC won't budge, and then they require ridiculous things that are nonstarters, like disallowing the use of the gangway for 12 hours between embarkations (which they finally did away with, Thank God, but it shows how unreasonable they are), or full-fledged hospitals onboard, or having in place agreements with local hospitals in every port they visit, in order to transport patients in case of an outbreak. It's a travesty.

[BecciBoo]

9 minutes ago, DCGuy64 said:

You are spot on, @BecciBoo. By way of analogy:

Imagine you go to a local bank to get a loan. The bank denies your request because you haven't had a loan with them previously or any bank accounts, and the only way they'll lend you money is if you do those things. But you point out that you've had, and paid off, loans with other institutions and have money there, too, so they can check your references and see you're good for it. "Not unless you put $100,000 on deposit as guarantee for your $10,000 loan."

With some obvious differences, that's essentially the CDC right now. The cruise lines can point to successful sailings elsewhere, but the CDC won't budge, and then they require ridiculous things that are nonstarters, like disallowing the use of the gangway for 12 hours between embarkations (which they finally did away with, Thank God, but it shows how unreasonable they are), or full-fledged hospitals onboard, or having in place agreements with local hospitals in every port they visit, in order to transport patients in case of an outbreak. It's a travesty.

I sent them a letter earlier today with the link to the you tube vid Cruising with Covid which was just posted today, if they can't learn from that, we're sunk.  One of the best videos I've seen to date with 2 fellas posting from an MSC ship... that company has got it!  And of course belying what that poster said, their protocols are fantastic, everyone can live with them and they are having a great cruise...THIS WEEK!  In Europe.

Edited April 21, 2021 by BecciBoo

[BecciBoo]

On 4/20/2021 at 1:13 PM, grandgeezer said:

What would you expect Chris to say?

Chris didn't say it Richard Fain did, Chris just reported what CDC requires.