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32 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Wearing a mask won't make you any safer at the grocery store.  That's why it's a silly rule.

 

No, it makes others safer by protecting them from your droplets.  That’s the whole idea.  We all protect each other.

 

If that’s a silly rule then I guess the Golden Rule is too. 🙄

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13 minutes ago, DaveSJ711 said:

You were the one who brought up Alabama in the 1960s.

 

We're not talking about shutdowns.  We're talking about social distancing and mask wearing -- period.  You denigrated those measures, and I responded.  Don't shift the subject.

You accuse me of changing the subject when you changed the subject from designing moon rockets to Bull Connor? 

Those measures have had significant impacts on the travel, entertainment, and restaurant businesses which has lead directly to the loss of jobs and financial impacts.  

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54 minutes ago, HaveWeMetYet said:

Dr. Fauci said this in a March2020 interview. He literally stated that it’s not necessary to wear a mask during a pandemic. He said it may block a droplet or two but only gives people a false sense of safety. 

 

Right.

 

Back in March, the policy was social distancing and the lock-down. Back then, Fauci was talking about the benefits of the mask to the wearer. Limited unless you have a N95 respirator.

 

Today,  we are easing lock-down. How do we protect ourselves when we can't maintain distance?

 

Simple, my mask protects you. Your mask protects me. Together we protect everyone. That's if everyone is wearing a mass in crowds. That's why masks will be needed on cruise ships and buses.

 

1 hour ago, DFD1 said:

I expect there are many who agree the CDC recommendations...together with the

CDC changes from time to time...have done a great deal of harm to the economy.

 

Many people fail to understand cause and effect.

 

We have a severe public health problem.

 

https://ca.style.yahoo.com/coronavirus-covid19-ventilator-body-physique-094048638.html

 

The economic problem follows as a consequence of not squashing the epidemic. China is in a V-shape recovery. May see a small growth this year. That's because they quickly quarantined 5% of their population. Leaving life to go on for the other 95%.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/01/china-is-seeing-a-v-shaped-recovery-but-that-may-not-be-global-norm.html

 

On the other hand, the lack of testing capacity in the States meant that the states had no idea of how bad it was. So, many states had a blanket lockdown.

 

http://gatton.uky.edu/about-us/stay-connected/news/2020/new-study-suggests-us-covid-19-cases-could-have-been-35-times

 

San Francisco county had a shelter-in-place policy. Deaths only 42. New York state started slowly with a soft lockdown. Deaths 23k.

 

In every state where the epidemic was raging, a weak response meant more lives lost. Until the entire continental USA gets the epidemic under control, cruising will be unsafe. And, the economy sputters as people lack confidence.

 

Even Hawaii (only 17 deaths) is afraid to admit people from North America.

 

Cause and effect!

 

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5 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

No, it makes others safer by protecting them from your droplets.  That’s the whole idea.  We all protect each other.

 

If that’s a silly rule then I guess the Golden Rule is too. 🙄

Social distancing and rules like wearing masks have had significant effects on the economy.  It's debatable whether those rules were worth those effects.

 

Silly rules case in point,  I bought a new pair of running shoes at Fleet Street today.  Not only was wearing a mask required in the store, I was required to change my socks and wear a pair of their socks.  I get the idea that they didn't want me to contaminate their shoes, but why was I allowed to try on multiple pairs of shoes without wearing gloves?  I was allowed to sit on their chairs.  To be consistent, shouldn't I have been required to wear their pants?


I think many of these rules are silly because they're only for show, 'see we care, we make you change your socks' or 'wear a mask'.  

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I am currently in Hong Kong.

NO cases of Covis19 most days ( yesterday 7), only 4 deaths.

there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO “social distancing”. Nada. But..EVERYONE is wearing surgical masks, which are abundantly and cheaply available, with tens of brands competing. Same for disinfectant gels.

temperature is taken in all shops, bars and restaurants. All of which are open as normal.

economy is booming, restaurants are full and shops had on sunday lines till nearly outside the door of people wanting to pay.

 

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2 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Social distancing and rules like wearing masks have had significant effects on the economy.  It's debatable whether those rules were worth those effects.

 

I guess it depends on how much you value a human life.  If it was your family member affected, your attitude may change about whether the rules were worth the effects, I suspect.

 

2 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

Silly rules case in point,  I bought a new pair of running shoes at Fleet Street today.  Not only was wearing a mask required in the store, I was required to change my socks and wear a pair of their socks.  

 

I’ve been to several stores pre-covid where they ask you to use their socks.  That’s not unusual at all.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, RocketMan275 said:

You accuse me of changing the subject when you changed the subject from designing moon rockets to Bull Connor? 

Those measures have had significant impacts on the travel, entertainment, and restaurant businesses which has lead directly to the loss of jobs and financial impacts.  

 

The moon rockets were designed in Alabama during the 1960s.  That's precisely when Bull Connor and his ilk flourished.

 

We agree on something, though:  I wouldn't be proud of Bull Connor, either.

Edited by DaveSJ711

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13 minutes ago, Despegue said:

I am currently in Hong Kong.

NO cases of Covis19 most days ( yesterday 7), only 4 deaths.

there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO “social distancing”. Nada. But..EVERYONE is wearing surgical masks, which are abundantly and cheaply available, with tens of brands competing. Same for disinfectant gels.

temperature is taken in all shops, bars and restaurants. All of which are open as normal.

economy is booming, restaurants are full and shops had on sunday lines till nearly outside the door of people wanting to pay.

 

 

Booming?  Really?

 

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/04/economy/hong-kong-q1-gdp-economy-coronavirus/index.html

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It is so simple. When you are more than 1.5m. Away from the nearest person: no mask necessary.

when closer than 1.5m. Mask over nose and mouth obligatory.

social distancing prefered, but don’t be bloody nazi about it.

we can not keep doing this social distancing forever. People need skin-to-skin contact. We have in Europe a word for it: Skin Hunger. It also includes the need for sex by the way, , ( a biological primary need) and for example the Dutch government, but also the Belgian one, is proposing singles to choose out of their friends a “sexbuddy “ to be intimate with, based on mutual respect, in order not to have to date strangers during the pandemic. And by the way, that buddy can be any gender obviously .

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9 minutes ago, Despegue said:

I am currently in Hong Kong.

NO cases of Covis19 most days ( yesterday 7), only 4 deaths.

there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO “social distancing”. Nada. But..EVERYONE is wearing surgical masks, which are abundantly and cheaply available, with tens of brands competing. Same for disinfectant gels.

temperature is taken in all shops, bars and restaurants. All of which are open as normal.

economy is booming, restaurants are full and shops had on sunday lines till nearly outside the door of people wanting to pay.

 

 

But, Hong Kong did social distance until around the beginning of May and it worked.From what I understood.

https://www.ft.com/content/b3eb7c4e-bad6-405e-a14a-b6e4437a4e4a

 

They are wisely wearing masks when they cannot socially distance as we have all been advised to do.

 

Good news that things are going well there 🙂 
 

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1 minute ago, DaveSJ711 said:

Yes, BOOMING.

are you in HK now? I am. And I see what is happening. I do not care about the 3 months past with the quarantine rules. I am talking now, POST restrictions. Obviously, things still needs to get better as there is no tourism yet, but there is a very pronounced pick-up of trade and consumption.

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2 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

But, Hong Kong did social distance until around the beginning of May and it worked.From what I understood.

https://www.ft.com/content/b3eb7c4e-bad6-405e-a14a-b6e4437a4e4a

 

They are wisely wearing masks when they cannot socially distance as we have all been advised to do.

 

Good news that things are going well there 🙂 
 

That is exactly what I am saying. Social distancing can only be practiced for a while. It is much easier, although bloody annoying, to wear a mask when in closer contact.

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Just now, Despegue said:

That is exactly what I am saying. Social distancing can only be practiced for a while. It is much easier, although bloody annoying, to wear a mask when in closer contact.

Totally agree with you.

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7 minutes ago, Despegue said:

Yes, BOOMING.

are you in HK now? I am. And I see what is happening. I do not care about the 3 months past with the quarantine rules. I am talking now, POST restrictions. Obviously, things still needs to get better as there is no tourism yet, but there is a very pronounced pick-up of trade and consumption.

 

Here's a story from 2 1/2 weeks ago.  Do you have a more current account?

 

https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-hong-kong-reopening-threatens-to-renew-mass-protests/a-53423607

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47 minutes ago, HappyInVan said:

 

Right.

 

Back in March, the policy was social distancing and the lock-down. Back then, Fauci was talking about the benefits of the mask to the wearer. Limited unless you have a N95 respirator.

 

Today,  we are easing lock-down. How do we protect ourselves when we can't maintain distance?

 

Simple, my mask protects you. Your mask protects me. Together we protect everyone. That's if everyone is wearing a mass in crowds. That's why masks will be needed on cruise ships and buses.

 

 

Many people fail to understand cause and effect.

 

We have a severe public health problem.

 

https://ca.style.yahoo.com/coronavirus-covid19-ventilator-body-physique-094048638.html

 

The economic problem follows as a consequence of not squashing the epidemic. China is in a V-shape recovery. May see a small growth this year. That's because they quickly quarantined 5% of their population. Leaving life to go on for the other 95%.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/01/china-is-seeing-a-v-shaped-recovery-but-that-may-not-be-global-norm.html

 

On the other hand, the lack of testing capacity in the States meant that the states had no idea of how bad it was. So, many states had a blanket lockdown.

 

http://gatton.uky.edu/about-us/stay-connected/news/2020/new-study-suggests-us-covid-19-cases-could-have-been-35-times

 

San Francisco county had a shelter-in-place policy. Deaths only 42. New York state started slowly with a soft lockdown. Deaths 23k.

 

In every state where the epidemic was raging, a weak response meant more lives lost. Until the entire continental USA gets the epidemic under control, cruising will be unsafe. And, the economy sputters as people lack confidence.

 

Even Hawaii (only 17 deaths) is afraid to admit people from North America.

 

Cause and effect!

 

 

Happy in Van:  I read your posts with anticipation of learning things and/or reading some well- researched points.  Thanks for all the links in this thread.  Great reading, as always.

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15 minutes ago, DaveSJ711 said:

 

Here's a story from 2 1/2 weeks ago.  Do you have a more current account?

 

https://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-hong-kong-reopening-threatens-to-renew-mass-protests/a-53423607

As I said, my experience is that the last days, there has been a significant surge in people shopping, wining and dining.

obviously, times are still tough, but everyone wants to get past this catastrophe and get on with their lives, and that includes enjoying oneself as maybe now more than ever, people realize that we must enjoy life to the fullest.


Mind you, I am  talking about normal shops and restaurants, not upmarket ones, as frankly, I do not give a rat’s ass how Dior is doing in HK.

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, kazu said:

I guess it depends on how much you value a human life.  If it was your family member affected, your attitude may change about whether the rules were worth the effects, I suspect.

I’ve been to several stores pre-covid where they ask you to use their socks.  That’s not unusual at all.

It also depends upon how much you value a robust economy.  The effects of these rules have been devastating for some.  Others are less affected because they can work from home.  They still have jobs.   Suicides are up, homicides are up, domestic violence is up.  These effects are concentrated on those least able to deal with them.  Every life has a finite value.  Placing a value on a human life is common, it's done everyday.  FWIW, my fraternal grandmother died from the Spanish Flu.

 

I don't think these measures, Social distancing, masks, etc., will last much longer.  Even Michigan has ended it's stay at home orders.  Still some restrictions.  There is a finite limit to how long these restrictions can be enforced.  JMHO, but I believe we're seeing the end. 

 

I know we will not be taking any cruises that enforce these measures.  Nor will we pay twice as much.  We won't downgrade our cabin either.  One wonders how many others will feel the same.

 

We've often speculated on taking a cruise without leaving our home.  We're in comfortable walking distance of multiple restaurants including out country club.  We could have all our meals there and save a ton.  We prefer short cruises, mostly Caribbean.  We rarely leave the ship.  It would work.

 

I was surprised at being asked to use their socks.  I've bought five or six pairs of shoes there and this was a first.  The salesman did say it was because of the virus.

Edited by RocketMan275

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1 minute ago, RocketMan275 said:

I don't think these measures, Social distancing, masks, etc., will last much longer. 

 

I fear masks will become the future for a while.

At least they will here until we are certain the virus is curtailed and our most vulnerable are safe.

 

If they choose not to use them where you are, then all I can say is I hope your cases don’t spike too much and you build up herd immunity quickly (which requires a lot of testing).

 

We’ll agree to disagree.  I’m taking the precautions we’ve been asked to and while no one likes wearing a mask, it’s been a pastime in Asia for some time before covid 19.  If that is what it takes to protect my community, I’ll do it.  In fact, I just ordered new ones that I think will give us more protection and be more comfortable 😉 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

I fear masks will become the future for a while.

At least they will here until we are certain the virus is curtailed and our most vulnerable are safe.

 

If they choose not to use them where you are, then all I can say is I hope your cases don’t spike too much and you build up herd immunity quickly (which requires a lot of testing).

 

We’ll agree to disagree.  I’m taking the precautions we’ve been asked to and while no one likes wearing a mask, it’s been a pastime in Asia for some time before covid 19.  If that is what it takes to protect my community, I’ll do it.  In fact, I just ordered new ones that I think will give us more protection and be more comfortable 😉 

 

OK, let's disagree.

Our governor is confident enough to lift almost all the restrictions.  We'll just have to see.

It will be interesting to see the studies that emerge in the future, say two years or so, on the effects of these restrictions.  Also interesting will be the actual data on the severity of this threat.  Right now, we know far less than we think we know.  

Just one more thing.  Herd immunity doesn't require testing.  It happens naturally.  The only thing testing does is confirm that herd immunity has been achieved.  Of course, a vaccine does get  you to herd immunity much faster.

Edited by RocketMan275

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5 minutes ago, kazu said:

 

We’ll agree to disagree.  I’m taking the precautions we’ve been asked to and while no one likes wearing a mask, it’s been a pastime in Asia for some time before covid 19.  If that is what it takes to protect my community, I’ll do it.  In fact, I just ordered new ones that I think will give us more protection and be more comfortable 😉 
 

 

Masks are indeed a common sight in Asia.  And that's been the case for a long time.  I remember seeing masks on folks during my first trip to Japan and China, in 1983.

 

 

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In March the use of masks was not encouraged for the general population, because there was a shortage for our emergency responders.  When the supply increased, intelligent people learned that it is wise to wear masks.  Hopefully we will have better options before much longer.

I wish good health to you all.

Barbara

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16 minutes ago, bcummin said:

In March the use of masks was not encouraged for the general population, because there was a shortage for our emergency responders. 

Absolutely!  And since my mask protects you and your mask protects me, the value is limited until enough people are wearing masks that my and your protection is significant.  If you and I wear masks and nobody else does we each have very limited protection since 99% of my and your threats will come from others.  Universal masks are a form of "herd protection" until we develop "herd immunity:.  I suspect masks will be required in more than the very short range.

 

Remember that most masks have their origin in surgery where medical personnel were operating on people whose insides were by definition open so the surgeons were protecting the extremely vulnerable.

 

Roy

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Where we live the Health Authority is distributing masks to everyone.   Drive up windows in several restaurant chains have agreed to be a distribution point. 

 

 Moreover, last night the Director of Public Health in our area made the comment that she believes masks will be required until we either get an available vaccine or a product that will negate the virus.

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