Key West Voter Referendum to Limit Daily Passengers and Ship Size

[FSUNole]

I've not seen this posted on any of these boards.  Looks like the petition drives were successful and this will be placed on the November 3rd election ballot.  Ships can't hold more than 1,300 passengers and the number of daily disembarkations by passengers and crew maximum of 1,500.  And, priority will be placed on ships with the highest environmental scores.  Not sure if these were just arbitrary numbers or if there was any thought put into them.

 

What ships fit this profile besides Seabourn, etc?

[FSUNole]

The 1,500 disembarkation max is total to be allowed of ALL ships visiting on a given day.

[FSUNole]

I should also say this is apparently a non-binding resolution.  It is meant to encourage city leaders to implement the limits.

[EatonDoolittle]

Interesting.

I found the article but could not read in full with out a subscription to the KW paper. 

I can't say that I blame them - Duval is intolerable when packed with cruise ship gawkers. I'm  sure people living there or staying for a vacation are quite put out. 

I also doubt they spend a lot of money, since KW is just a stop on the way to somewhere else. 

 

The last 2 times I stopped there on a ship were on the Empress and the Majesty, both times stopping on the way to Havana. 

Those 2 ships would qualify, whenever Cuba cruises start up again with a US regime change.

The same sort of ships that qualify for KW would qualify for Havana harbor, plus or minus 1000 pax. 

 

 

[tw67]

This would be a big game changer for us.  We love doing the 4 day cruises out of Miami going to Key West and Cozumel.  Key West is one of our most favorite stops.  We aren't big on Bahamas, and when you don't have time to take a week cruise, those 4 days are just great and what we need to refresh!  Besides more Bahama cruises, what other ports could these ships going out of Miami go?

[Tapi]

On 6/7/2020 at 3:01 PM, EatonDoolittle said:

 The last 2 times I stopped there on a ship were on the Empress and the Majesty, both times stopping on the way to Havana. 

Those 2 ships would qualify, whenever Cuba cruises start up again with a US regime change.

At a capacity of 1,853 even tiny Empress wouldn’t qualify. If this resolution passes and is enforced, it would prevent most ships from all mass market cruise lines to call at Key West. No Carnival, Royal Caribbean, Norwegian, MSC, etc. 

 

Key West will become a port of call for luxury lines with smaller ships, and/or for some of the smallest ships in mid-market lines like Holland America. Maybe they chose this number not so much to limit the quantity of cruise passengers, but to keep out the budget minded cruise line clientele. 
 

But I have to say that I don’t blame them. Key West has lost its charm, with hordes of cruise  passengers in addition to land visitors. The last time I was in Key West aboard Nieuw Statendam, there were 3 ships in town (Nieuw Statendam, Norwegian Sky, and Viking Sky) and there was a festival that weekend as well. Streets were packed and it was pretty chaotic. We had lunch, visited a museum and went back to the ship.

 

With all of that said, I think that placing the limit at 1,500 may prove to be too restrictive and would end up hurting them financially. Maybe reach a happy medium, impose a limit but make it 2,500 total capacity which would allow some  ships in the 70K range to dock, and at the same time would limit the number of ships to 1 medium sized or 2 smaller ones. 
 

3 mega ships dumping 10,000 passengers at once in Key West is a bit much.  

Edited July 12, 2020 by Tapi

[Denarius]

On 6/7/2020 at 2:10 PM, FSUNole said:

I've not seen this posted on any of these boards.  Looks like the petition drives were successful and this will be placed on the November 3rd election ballot.  Ships can't hold more than 1,300 passengers and the number of daily disembarkations by passengers and crew maximum of 1,500.  And, priority will be placed on ships with the highest environmental scores.  Not sure if these were just arbitrary numbers or if there was any thought put into them.

 

What ships fit this profile besides Seabourn, etc?

Quite a lot, mainly from the more up market lines.

Specifically all current ships of Oceania, Azamara, Regent, Viking, Saga, Silversea, Star Clippers, Windstar, Seabourn, and more. But none from the major mid market lines like Carnival, Princess, P&O, Cunard, Royal Caribbean, Celbrity etc.

[Tom.Terrific]

Our first cruise stop at Key West was on a ship with fewer than 2000 guests and we were the only ship in port.  We had a fun day exploring.  Lunch, drinks, key lime pie.  It was lovely.  Our last visit was on a ship with nearly 3700 guests and there were 2 big ships in port that day.  We should have stayed on board and enjoyed a ship day.  The crowds ruined any chance for a good time.  It was like walking in downtown San Miguel de Cozumel.  I'm surprised the residents have tolerated the big ships as long as they have.

 

We'll still visit.  Probably not as often, but we'll stay for a few days when we do.  I'm looking forward to it already.

 

[Hlitner]

Folks need to understand that this is NOT about Covid-19 but about locals being opposed to mass market ships.  While one poster calls a 1800 passenger ship "tiny,"  those of us who have enjoyed small ships (often under 600 and even under 400) would not think an 1800 passenger ship is small.  So what is this all about?  There is an anti-cruise ship trend around the world.  In Europe we have seen it in Venice, La Spezia, and numerous smaller ports.  In the USA we have had anti cruise ship action in Charleston, Bar Harbor and some other ports.   Why is this happening?

 

Mass market ships certainly bring in a lot of people, but the reality is that they are not huge contributors to the important segments of the local economy.  While we cruise passengers fill the streets and enrich a few tour companies (the one's who contract with the cruise lines) we do not generally fill hotel rooms, restaurants, etc.  In Key West many locals and tourists really dislike seeing large ships blocking some of the harbor view near Mallory Square.  We often vacation in Key West and have also been there on a few cruises.  When in "vacation mode" we really prefer the days when there are no ships and look forward to late afternoon when the ships finally leave the Mallory Square area so that we have a nice view.

 

Will this referendum pass?  There will certainly be some local touristy shops and tour providers who will do their best to get it voted down.  But I suspect that a majority of locals will support the measure to ban large ships.  The smaller ships, which are often from the more upscale lines like Seabourn, Silverseas, Regent, etc) will still be welcomed as their numbers are much smaller and their passengers tend to be bigger spenders ashore.  I suspect that the continuing fear of COVID-19 will also help this referendum pass.  

 

I do have a suggestion for fellow cruisers.  If you are taking a cruise out of a South Florida port, consider spending a few extra days in FL, renting a car, and driving down to Key West.  The drive on the Overseas Highway is one of the most picturesque in the USA and this is a case where getting there is at least half the fun.  Key West really comes into its glory around late afternoon (when all the ships depart) as folks gather in Mallory Square for sunset, the various street performers, etc.  Evenings in KW offer plenty of options when it comes to dining (in all price ranges) and entertainment (many of the bars have decent live entertainment).

 

Hank

[Hlitner]

I just stumbled on another interesting article about the KW issue:

https://yourmileagemayvary.net/2020/07/17/key-west-could-ban-large-cruise-ships/

 

There is no doubt that the local anti-cruise ship crowd have taken advantage of the COVID-19 virus to try and get this referendum passed.   But the anti-cruise sentiment is not anything new in KW where many locals (especially environmentalists) have long argued that large ships are terrible for the regional environment.

 

Hank

 

 

 

[cruiselvr04]

Since cruising is shut down we are doing a Keys vacation in October.  We’ve been several times on a ship but want to see and explore more.  We will fly, drive down from Fort Lauderdale and plan to spend 7 nights at a B and B in Key west and then 5 nights at a resort in Islamorada.  

 

I know it won’t be the same flavor with bars shut down.  However since we’re not really bar people I think we may even enjoy it more. And with no cruise ships we should be able to social distance.   Hoping for good weather!  Hurricanes stay away!  

 

I can see both  points of view....if I were a local I’d want the economy from overnight guests.  I wouldn’t want the crowded streets when the ships were in.  However it’s a popular port for short cruises from Florida and the gulf. 

Edited August 13, 2020 by cruiselvr04

[jeremyosborne81]

Any locals have any updated info on this? How does the resolution look in terms of succeeding? What will be the actual fall out?

[Cruising89143]

Guess we will soon know the outcome.

[BeachDiva101]

I'm hoping someone who lives in Florida that comments on these boards does let us know what is happening and how the vote count is going when results start coming in.

[JT1962]

It looks like both of the cruise ship referendums easily passed per the county election commission website:  

 

https://enr.electionsfl.org/MON/Summary/2806/

 

 

Charter Amendment: Limiting Persons Disembarking

Participating Precincts Reporting:

10 / 10

Show Graphical View

 

Choice	Election Day	Early Votes	Vote By Mail	Provisional	Total Votes	Percentage
YES	1,543	2,168	4,460	0	8,171	63.34%
NO	1,257	1,447	2,025	0	4,729	36.66%

Charter Amendment: Cruise Ship Capacity

Participating Precincts Reporting:

10 / 10

Show Graphical View

 

Choice	Election Day	Early Votes	Vote By Mail	Provisional	Total Votes	Percentage
YES	1,474	2,105	4,258	0	7,837	60.70%
NO	1,333	1,512	2,228	0	5,073	39.30%

 

 

Edited November 4, 2020 by JT1962

[Hlitner]

As I feared (and posted), the residents of KW have come down hard against the cruise industry.  This continues an anti-cruising trend we have seen in Europe, the Caribbean and the USA.  As someone who is very fond of KW (we will again be vacationing there in early Dec) I will not miss cruise ships or cruisers when we are in KW.  As a very frequent cruiser I am sorry to see that KW might now disappear as a cruise port, but I do understand the sentiments of the locals.  There will be few tears shed over the disappearance of most cruise ships (especially the mega ships) in KW...except by a few bars and shops.  Smaller more upscale vessels will still be welcomed.

 

Many here on CC do not understand why there is a growing anti-cruise sentiment but I would think it is primarily because of the dislike of the megaships.  These vessels are simply too large for smaller (and more compact) ports and can have a negative impact on other tourists (who stay in the area and spend a lot more money).  Having a day time flood of thousands of cruisers also takes a lot of the charm away from smaller quaint ports.  I would not be surprised to also see this anti-cruise trend become an issue in some Eastern Canada and New England ports.   There are some places such as St Barts that have long seen the negative impact of large cruise ships and have done their best to discourage visits from mega ships.  

 

All this might bode well for the luxury cruise lines who primarily utilize smaller vessels.  A small community is often comfortable welcoming 200-600 cruisers (who pay more for their cruises and generally spend more onshore) while they want no part of a vessel with 3000+ folks, many of whom are reluctant to part with money when ashore.   If ports become exclusively available to the smaller ships it will be another incentive for folks to book these smaller more upscale cruises.   Most recently we returned to Greenland on a large Princess ship and it was an unmitigated disaster.   Ports that were charming when we visited on a 600 passenger vessel became an awful experince on a 3200 passenger vessel.  In one Greenland port that has only a single small pier to receive tenders it took over 6 hours to tender ashore all who wanted to go (many others gave up and stayed on the ship).  Some folks actually waited in lounges for over 4 hours just to get on a tender!  We have also had similar experiences in other parts of the world (i.e Europe and the South Pacific).  

 

I do think the mega ships will survive and, once we get past this COVID mess, will again thrive.   But those ships are best suited for ports designed to handle the masses which rules out many wonderful ports around the world.  And lets face facts.  Cramming over 6000 souls onto a vessel is always going to be a recipe for the spread of nasty bugs such as COVID.  Being packed into deck loungers lined up like sardines in a can....is not conducive to any kind of social distancing.   COVID will likely change the attitude towards cruising on mega ships with more folks aware of the heightened risk from contagious diseases.  Many frequent cruisers have long been aware of the Noro, flu, and URI risk but have tended to accept that risk.  But now, I think there will be many with second thoughts.

 

Hank

[ano]

13 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

As I feared (and posted), the residents of KW have come down hard against the cruise industry.  This continues an anti-cruising trend we have seen in Europe, the Caribbean and the USA.

 

I'm not sure why the people that don't live there should be telling the people that do live there what they should do.  They are grown-ups, and since cruise ships bring lots of tourists,  and I'm sure they thought long and hard before they voted the way they did.  

 

[Hlitner]

58 minutes ago, ano said:

 

I'm not sure why the people that don't live there should be telling the people that do live there what they should do.  They are grown-ups, and since cruise ships bring lots of tourists,  and I'm sure they thought long and hard before they voted the way they did.  

 

I doubt if most locals gave it a lot of thought other then to say NO!  For most locals the larger ships just mean more crowding in a very popular part of town.  When we are in KW we generally avoid the Mallory Square area and the lower blocks of Duval Street because they are packed with cruisers.  In late afternoon when the ships leave that is when many locals and tourists (half the people in town are tourists) head to Mallory Square for the near sunset activities and the sunset.  During the day time if there is one or two ships at the pier near Mallory, the vessels spoil the view.  I admit that I enjoy KW when we are there on a ship, but enjoy it a lot more when we are staying a few days at our favorite hotel.   For many years you might only see a few ships a week (often not more then one on any day) and the ships generally had fewer then 2000 passengers.  Gradually the cruise visitors increased where there were sometimes 3 ships which would flood the town with over 6000 people.  This was just too much for a community of about 25,000.  And with ships constantly getting larger, communities are fighting back in an attempt to keep their charm.  Also keep in mind that unlike Scottsdale (and most other places) there is really no way for Key West to expand it's size.  So limiting population and tourists is a very popular idea. 

 

The KW residents (I have a good friend who has lived there for over thirty years) are a liberal fun loving crowd that does not like anything or anyone who threatens their laid back lifestyle.  Although DW and I travel extensively throughout the world, KW remains one of our favorite places to spend a few days (often before or after a cruise out of South Florida).   It was no surprise that the particular referendum that got the most votes was related to giving priority to the most environmentally friendly small ships (I think that was a message aimed at CCL and their ongoing environmental battles with a Miami-based Federal Judge.

 

 

Hank

[BNBR]

On 11/3/2020 at 9:01 PM, JT1962 said:

It looks like both of the cruise ship referendums easily passed per the county election commission website:  

 

https://enr.electionsfl.org/MON/Summary/2806/

 

 

Charter Amendment: Limiting Persons Disembarking

Participating Precincts Reporting:

10 / 10

Show Graphical View

 

Choice	Election Day	Early Votes	Vote By Mail	Provisional	Total Votes	Percentage
YES	1,543	2,168	4,460	0	8,171	63.34%
NO	1,257	1,447	2,025	0	4,729	36.66%

Charter Amendment: Cruise Ship Capacity

Participating Precincts Reporting:

10 / 10

Show Graphical View

 

Choice	Election Day	Early Votes	Vote By Mail	Provisional	Total Votes	Percentage
YES	1,474	2,105	4,258	0	7,837	60.70%
NO	1,333	1,512	2,228	0	5,073	39.30%

 

 

 

 

You need 60% to pass an amendment.  It barely passed.

[Hlitner]

For those interested in this topic here is a link to a pretty balanced story printed in the Miami Herald

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/florida-keys/article246122315.html

 

Hank

[stitchcreek]

Is there any word on when this would take effect from?

[KirkNC]

1 hour ago, stitchcreek said:

Is there any word on when this would take effect from?

I think there are legal challenges (shock) that have to be resolved first.

[keywester33]

On 11/9/2020 at 3:30 AM, stitchcreek said:

Is there any word on when this would take effect from?

it is effective immediately.  Yes, there will be legal challenges from the corporation that owns Margaritaville, where one of the piers is located.  However, unless a judge grants a temporary injunction (which already failed once), these limits are now part of our City charter.

[BNBR]

On 11/4/2020 at 3:26 PM, Hlitner said:

I doubt if most locals gave it a lot of thought other then to say NO!  For most locals the larger ships just mean more crowding in a very popular part of town.  When we are in KW we generally avoid the Mallory Square area and the lower blocks of Duval Street because they are packed with cruisers.  In late afternoon when the ships leave that is when many locals and tourists (half the people in town are  t

 

The KW residents (I have a good friend who has lived there for over thirty years) are a liberal fun loving crowd that does not like anything or anyone who threatens their laid back lifestyle.  Although DW and I travel extensively throughout the world, KW remains one of our favorite places to spend a few days (often before or after a cruise out of South Florida).   It was no surprise that the particular referendum that got the most votes was related to giving priority to the most environmentally friendly small ships (I think that was a message aimed at CCL and their ongoing environmental battles with a Miami-based Federal Judge.

 

 

Hank

 

I tend to find these arguments from the locals kind of ridiculous.  Ever been to Key West on a busy evening?  The streets are FLOODED with drunk, obnoxious tourists.  Multiples more condensed, busy, and obnoxious than even the busiest cruise day.  The island has virtually nothing other than tourism.  The only people on the streets are generally tourists.  It's not a quiet, quaint, town.  It's a fairly loud party town.  So cutting off a ton of tourism seems short-sighted to me in the name of "preserving our quaintness".

 

As a land tourist, I guess I don't mind less crowds during the day, in my own selfish way....  But this does seem kind of silly for the island to vote for it.  A bunch of selfish jackasses who aren't directly reliant on the cruise tourism, screwing their neighbors out of jobs.

Edited November 10, 2020 by BNBR

[stitchcreek]

2 hours ago, keywester33 said:

it is effective immediately.  Yes, there will be legal challenges from the corporation that owns Margaritaville, where one of the piers is located.  However, unless a judge grants a temporary injunction (which already failed once), these limits are now part of our City charter.

Wow!

So I know cruising isn’t really happening right now anyway... but virtually all cruise lines are now going to have to change their Key West itineraries with immediate effect?