Dry Fog

[dockman]

interesting story from Hawaii....maybe just maybe something similar could be used on cruise ships....perhaps there will even be a plan to have a cleaning day ....disembark one load of passengers, fog the ship,  and don't load the next bunch until the next day....have to figure out back to backs but maybe?

 

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2020/06/08/hawaii-news/germ-fighting-dry-fog-system-used-in-prisons-could-also-be-used-in-schools-and-airports/

[kazu]

2 minutes ago, dockman said:

interesting story from Hawaii....maybe just maybe something similar could be used on cruise ships....perhaps there will even be a plan to have a cleaning day ....disembark one load of passengers, fog the ship,  and don't load the next bunch until the next day....have to figure out back to backs but maybe?

 

https://www.staradvertiser.com/2020/06/08/hawaii-news/germ-fighting-dry-fog-system-used-in-prisons-could-also-be-used-in-schools-and-airports/

 

That is interesting.  If the dry fog truly sanitizes for 90 days then it would appear it would not need to be applied for every sailing?  

[VMax1700]

 

"The dry-fog process is designed to kill all manner of germs, including the new coronavirus"

Any proof that it actually works?  Being designed to do it is one thing, actually doing it is another.

It would be wonderful if there was proof.

[dockman]

not sure what constitutes "proof" but according to the story it does apparently work and has received approval ....who knows how effective it may be but IF it is as presented in the news story it could be a major game changer for cruises, hotels, airports, etc.....fingers crossed.

 

The treatment has been approved by both the federal Environmental Protection Agency and the Food and Drug Administration, according to the department.

 

 

[VMax1700]

Just now, dockman said:

The treatment has been approved by both the federal Environmental Protection Agency and the Food and Drug Administration, according to the department.

Yes, I did read that, but approval does not mean it works on, specifically Covid19.

If it is as good as they say, then a test showing live Covid19 virus being killed (and staying killed) by being 'Fogged' should be relatively easy to do.

[Mandalay1903]

Seems like it could be a good part of the solution. Still doesn't solve the problem of community transmission (person to person) especially by asymptomatic carriers sharing a dinner table or sitting at the main stage. Also there's the issue of contracting Covid 19 during shore excursions.

[cat shepard]

Very interesting. The company says it is safe for people and animals. I wonder if that includes people with respiratory issues? But it sounds hopeful.

[dockman]

"FDA approved" means that the agency has determined that the "benefits of the product outweigh the known risks for the intended use." Manufacturers must submit a premarket approval (PMA) application and the results of clinical testing in order to get approval.

[cruzingnut]

1 hour ago, Mandalay1903 said:

Seems like it could be a good part of the solution. Still doesn't solve the problem of community transmission (person to person) especially by asymptomatic carriers sharing a dinner table or sitting at the main stage. Also there's the issue of contracting Covid 19 during shore excursions.

 

They can disinfect until the cows come home, but as you say, it does nothing for someone without symptoms.  Even if they tested everyone prior to getting on the ship, that won't be a guarantee either as a lot of times there are false negatives.  I hate admitting this...I really, really, really (!!!) want to cruise but I'm just being realistic.  Until they come out with medication that will nip the virus in the bud or a vaccine, I just can't see cruising happening and being safe.  I hate this darned virus.....  I want to cruise so bad that even with what I've said here, I'll have a hard time telling myself not to go once they do start up. 

 

Linda R.

[KirkNC]

Well if effective and safe it could be another arrow in the quiver against CV.  Time will tell how effective it is.

[kazu]

41 minutes ago, KirkNC said:

Well if effective and safe it could be another arrow in the quiver against CV.  Time will tell how effective it is.

 

Hawaii has been pretty successful in it’s fight against covid 19.  I think it says something for this fog treatment 😉   There are lots of factors of course, but they have done well IMO.

[clueless2]

https://federallabs.org/news/pnnls-dry-fog-disinfectants-potential-extends-beyond-covid-19

[Mandalay1903]

We've heard that Covid-19 can be spread via airborne droplets from human respiration including coughing, sneezing, singing (therefore the face masks and physical distancing) and by picking up the virus from surfaces (therefore all the recent emphasis on surface cleaning). But I don't recall reading much about the relative likelihood of catching the virus from airborne droplets versus from surfaces, and I'm not even sure whether it's possible to tell.

 

As KirkNC says, this could be another "arrow in the quiver", but there is still a lot of work to do on the spread by airborne droplets.

[KirkNC]

41 minutes ago, Mandalay1903 said:

We've heard that Covid-19 can be spread via airborne droplets from human respiration including coughing, sneezing, singing (therefore the face masks and physical distancing) and by picking up the virus from surfaces (therefore all the recent emphasis on surface cleaning). But I don't recall reading much about the relative likelihood of catching the virus from airborne droplets versus from surfaces, and I'm not even sure whether it's possible to tell.

 

As KirkNC says, this could be another "arrow in the quiver", but there is still a lot of work to do on the spread by airborne droplets.

I believe you are correct.  Initially they said it could live on surfaces for X hours depending on the surface but I believe later studies indicate it is fairly unlikely that one would get the virus from that type of transmission.  Not impossible but unlikely.  It is far more contagious via coughing or aerosol transmission which relate to an airborne transmission.

Edited June 8, 2020 by KirkNC

[KirkNC]

3 hours ago, kazu said:

 

Hawaii has been pretty successful in it’s fight against covid 19.  I think it says something for this fog treatment 😉   There are lots of factors of course, but they have done well IMO.

One advantage Hawaii and all other islands have is isolation.  Once you close your borders you just have to treat the ones on the island.  New Zealand has recently claimed to have eradicate the virus.  Iceland has only had ten deaths.  I believe most South Pacific Islands have done pretty well.

[dockman]

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/28/well/live/whats-the-risk-of-catching-coronavirus-from-a-surface.html

[KirkNC]

6 minutes ago, dockman said:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/28/well/live/whats-the-risk-of-catching-coronavirus-from-a-surface.html

Thats a good article on the topic, possible but not the most likely form of transmission.

Edited June 8, 2020 by KirkNC

[Mandalay1903]

Seems so ironic to me that this post topic came up today. The owners of the home next door to ours are having it tented for termites today. Similar concept, I guess, except that the product described in the article seems much less toxic to humans. Either way, the treatment only works for a finite time period and later on pests will enter into your home again one way or another. Same with a cruise ship.

 

I believe the islands like NZ, Hawaii, Fiji and Iceland have their borders almost entirely closed with substantial quarantine requirements for most people who enter. When they open their gates to outside tourism again all bets are off, IMO.  It seems to me that there is so much work to do in the rest of the world to get our infection rates down low enough for them to consider hosting us. We'll see about Hawaii which, as with all the US states, are facing great pressure to reopen for business. Flying from mainland US to Hawaii could have a lot more restrictions than simply driving to the next state on the mainland.

[prescottbob]

I don't see it to be a routine, useful means of disinfection considering a cruise ship's size. Areas treated needed to be vacated for a certain period of time depending on the compounding used (the link / study I  attached utilizes hydrogen peroxide pretty much).

 

http://www.mcpur.com/main/library/12_brochures/3024838_(Environmentally_Friendly_Disinfection_of_a_Cleanroom).pdf

 

Although as a child  I had the privilege to cruise in the late 50's, where a ship would arrive in the A.M., passengers disembarked and the ship did not sail until the following day, noon-ish or so following late A.M. embarkation. If such timings came about there might be time to fog but with turnover being so important to be bottom line I doubt we'll see that, IMHO. And, of course the labor costs & equipment costs would, seem to me, be prohibitive due to the overall square footage's to be treated. 

 

My crystal ball tells me that an effective & safe  vaccine will be the only answer for future safe sailings. I have my  'fingers crossed' that something might become available by Spring 2021, we'll see, for the COVID-1984. 

 

And God knows, down the road when this current viral pandemic subsides there will always be a another pathogen (i.e. bacterial, fungal, viral) lurking about to make our life's  a tad more difficult. And so it goes...

 

Be well & keep washing those hands.

Bob

[Hlitner]

Disinfection is a good thing but is not a solution to COVID-19.  If you believe the best experts this virus is mostly spread via droplets from coughing and sneezing.   The main concern on ships (or anywhere else indoors) is that an infected passenger would cough or sneeze and quickly spread the virus to anyone within reasonable range.  Get into an elevator with anyone who has COVID-19 and a single cough is likely to infect everyone in that elevator!   How can a cruise line keep infected folks off their ships?  At the present time it is impossible.  No fast test is 100% accurate and no test will detect the virus in somebody who may have recently been exposed while traveling to the port.  So the bottom line is that even the cleanest ship can harbor one or more passengers/crew who carry COVID-19 (or Norovirus).

 

My simple conclusion is that until such time as there is a safe/effective vaccine (which could be years or might never happen) we all will be rolling the dice whenever we travel.   But the complication on cruise ships is that if a single person shows symptoms of COVID-19....what will happen.  Now, it would seem that the entire ship would be quarantines, passengers confined to their cabins, and this could go on for weeks with no port willing to accept the ship.  Such is the near future of cruising?

 

Hank

[CruiserBruce]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Disinfection is a good thing but is not a solution to COVID-19.  If you believe the best experts this virus is mostly spread via droplets from coughing and sneezing.   The main concern on ships (or anywhere else indoors) is that an infected passenger would cough or sneeze and quickly spread the virus to anyone within reasonable range.  Get into an elevator with anyone who has COVID-19 and a single cough is likely to infect everyone in that elevator!   How can a cruise line keep infected folks off their ships?  At the present time it is impossible.  No fast test is 100% accurate and no test will detect the virus in somebody who may have recently been exposed while traveling to the port.  So the bottom line is that even the cleanest ship can harbor one or more passengers/crew who carry COVID-19 (or Norovirus).

 

Hank

Not sure the science agrees with you yet. There has been discussions on just how many individual viral cells it requires to make someone sick. It is quite possible one viral cell will not get you sick, this is very common in other virus'. And to say that everyone in the elevator would get sick if one person coughed, or to spread it to everyone within reasonable range, is not absolutely supported, at least not at this point in time. Yes, its highly contagious, but lets stay within the known science.

 

A common social distancing protocol is to restrict numbers of people in elevators. Yes, the virus could still be suspended in air if the person on the elevator prior to you coughed.

[Hlitner]

54 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Not sure the science agrees with you yet. There has been discussions on just how many individual viral cells it requires to make someone sick. It is quite possible one viral cell will not get you sick, this is very common in other virus'. And to say that everyone in the elevator would get sick if one person coughed, or to spread it to everyone within reasonable range, is not absolutely supported, at least not at this point in time. Yes, its highly contagious, but lets stay within the known science.

 

A common social distancing protocol is to restrict numbers of people in elevators. Yes, the virus could still be suspended in air if the person on the elevator prior to you coughed.

Within the known science just like WHO and CDC.  Lets see, at first they told us in early January the virus could not spread from human to human.  A week later they said it could spread from human to human.  Then later that month we were assured by many experts (including Dr. Fauci) that the virus would not be a problem in the USA.  A few weeks later they made a big effort to convince us we should not wear masks and that masks were actually dangerous.  A few short weeks later they started insisting that folks wear masks.  They also told us that we should probably leave packages outside for a couple of days, and carefully decontaminate grocery bags.  A few weeks later they said not to worry about packages and mail.  Just yesterday the WHO told us we did not have to worry about the virus being spread from Asymptomatic folks....and within hours told us that as much as 40% of cases might be spread by Asymptomatic folks. 

 

So lets be clear.  These days there is very little "science" in the statement of scientists.  Government officials issue speculation that they want us to believe is science.  WHO changed their mind every few weeks and some called  it science!  And having spent a long time in the healthcare sector I never believe any positive news or speculations from pharmaceutical companies who have a habit of "talking up their stock" and later releasing disappointing news about drugs/vaccines.  Once they have a safe/effective vaccine that has cleared Phase 3 trials then I will be a believer and might be one of the early folks to get that shot.  But prior to that just paint me very skeptical.  And I pray, every day, that I am wrong and we will have a miracle vaccine within a few months.

 

As to my elevator comment all I can say is that I would do what I can to avoid any elevator that has other people.  

 

Hank

[babydrum]

55 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

A few weeks later they made a big effort to convince us we should not wear masks and that masks were actually dangerous.

Thank you for saying this because I believe that is one of the reasons that so many people have a problem with masks.  

[rkacruiser]

Responding to CruiserBruce's and Hlitner's most recent posts:  I share views in each of your posts.  We don't know what we don't know with this virus.  That is the status where we are in my opinion.

 

Valid scientific research is not done overnight.  I wish "authorities" at whatever level and wherever they may be would keep their mouths shut until science has provided the answers that we are hoping to learn.  

 

 

[Hlitner]

23 minutes ago, babydrum said:

Thank you for saying this because I believe that is one of the reasons that so many people have a problem with masks.  

The irony is that masks are probably the best defense against catching a respiratory virus (some will accuse me of not listening to "science.")  When I worked as a paramedic and in ERs we did not routinely wear masks,  But when around folks with respiratory problems such as the flu, the masks quickly got donned.   Even now it just makes common sense.  If I get a virus on my hands it is not a big deal as long as I wash my hands before touching my face.  So don't touch your face.  But if somebody coughs or sneezes within range it is more then likely that I will inhale some of that bug into my respiratory passage and lungs.  I know it is not science but it is called common sense.  Can we protect ourselves 100% by using masks (when appropriate) and washing hands before touching our faces?  Probably not 100% but I bet my odds are a lot better then simply ignoring these issues.  

 

What worries me about cruising are the elevators.  On ships they are often quite crowded and it is a necessary part of getting around most larger ships.  DW and I will normally walk down 1-5 decks and up 1-4.  But on ships that might have 16 decks there are limits :).  Our next booked cruise is on the Regal Princess in October (this cruise might still get cancelled).  It is a huge ship and it would be difficult to completely avoid elevators.  We routinely are going between deck 5 and deck 16 and I am usually not in the mood to do 11 up decks up!    On the other hand, if we did do that on a routine basis is might be a good think for our health and waist line :).

 

Where has the USA had the most COVID-19 cases,  NYC!  What is very common in NYC?  High rise buildings with crowded elevators.   Folks leave their apartments/co ops, take the elevator down to the ground floor, and then social distance.  It is the same when they return home.  But they cannot social distance in the elevators unless they can somehow get their own elevator car.  We have friends who live in an upscale Upper East Side building and they do try to follow an elevator policy where nobody gets on a elevator that has other folks.  But this is not the norm and does not usually happen on ships.

 

Hank

 

Hank