When will things start back up?

[Flatbush Flyer]

Regatta just taking off now from Port of Oakland for another runaround outside the Gate.

[clo]

1 hour ago, Paulchili said:

"cure"

That brings up to me anyway the fact that if you need a "cure" while on a ship that others have been exposed. And then you get the dread Q-word :

[clo]

45 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Our personal internal debate is whether a cruise vacation is reasonable now or anytime in the future.  If we accept that it is not reasonable now, it will likely not be reasonable for many years!  And it is the same with travel.  Since we are passionate about travel and cruising, and are not getting younger, we are willing to accept some of the COVID-19 risk.  But we are still assessing what is "reasonable" given our own risk tolerance.

 

That was an easy decision for us to make. Flying for ten or so hours with a good mask, in business class, etc. 'feels' alright. Being on a cruise ship for ten (or many more) days doesn't. 

 

BTW 'only' 67 died in the '89 earthquake.

[Flatbush Flyer]

58 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

All true.  Many decisions in life and travel are about one's degree of risk aversion.  For example, you apparently live in the Bay area where the risk of a major earthquake is great.  I would not take that chance.....

......We live in Puerto Vallarta for part of the year and love the place.  But in that city we must accept the risk of earthquakes, floods. Dengue Fever, parasites, etc.  It is a risk we willingly accept. 

I surely do understand the favorable cost of living in Puerto Vallarta and the allure of the beach for folks who live in non-coastal cold climates. And I respect personal choice of which risk(s) to accept.

 

But, let's be clear: If one can handle the expensive real estate, few areas in/near the U.S. offer the diversity of recreational, natural and cultural experiences that are available to Californians in general and coastal Californians (both north and south) in particular.

 

FWIW,  the earthquake issue here in the SF Bay Area is far from uniform. For example, although we live on the northeastern shore not far from the Hayward Fault, our home is situated on bedrock. Even the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989, which devastated SF's Marina district, did little other than shake our window coverings.

 

Yes, we have infrequent "earthquakes" (mostly mere tremors) and, if the prevailing winds shift, we'll even get ash from ravaging wildfires to the north. But, the quality-of-life (from weather to natural beauty and cultural/arts diversity, etc) is why this is some of the most expensive geography on the planet.

 

In any case, given the current chaos and premature "reopening" of cities/towns across the US, I'd prefer to be in the far more controlled environment of an Oceania ship when seeking other-than-home enjoyable experiences.

[Hlitner]

55 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

I surely do understand the favorable cost of living in Puerto Vallarta and the allure of the beach for folks who live in non-coastal cold climates. And I respect personal choice of which risk(s) to accept.

 

But, let's be clear: If one can handle the expensive real estate, few areas in/near the U.S. offer the diversity of recreational, natural and cultural experiences that are available to Californians in general and coastal Californians (both north and south) in particular.

 

FWIW,  the earthquake issue here in the SF Bay Area is far from uniform. For example, although we live on the northeastern shore not far from the Hayward Fault, our home is situated on bedrock. Even the Loma Prieta earthquake of 1989, which devastated SF's Marina district, did little other than shake our window coverings.

 

Yes, we have infrequent "earthquakes" (mostly mere tremors) and, if the prevailing winds shift, we'll even get ash from ravaging wildfires to the north. But, the quality-of-life (from weather to natural beauty and cultural/arts diversity, etc) is why this is some of the most expensive geography on the planet.

 

In any case, given the current chaos and premature "reopening" of cities/towns across the US, I'd prefer to be in the far more controlled environment of an Oceania ship when seeking other-than-home enjoyable experiences.

LOL,   I have long been amazed at the high percentage of Puerto Vallarta visitors (and residents) that are from California.  Even the couple who owns our rental Condo has homes in both El Cerito and Palm Springs...but they still have their place in PV.  DW and I have long been fans of the Bay Area but no longer visit because of the homeless problems in the city and the basic cost of CA.  I think the final straw was the last time we visited a Starbucks near Union Square and had to walk around the very smelly homeless guy living next to the front door.  Once inside DW had to request a key to the inside rest room which we thought was strange until it was explained that otherwise, a homeless person would move in the rest rooms and its nearly impossible to get them evicted.  Perhaps this is an exaggeration (about the homeless moving into rest rooms) but you get the point.  I still think that San Francisco is the most beautiful city in our country but its no longer a place I want to visit.

 

Hank

[Flatbush Flyer]

30 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

LOL,   I have long been amazed at the high percentage of Puerto Vallarta visitors (and residents) that are from California.  Even the couple who owns our rental Condo has homes in both El Cerito and Palm Springs...but they still have their place in PV.  DW and I have long been fans of the Bay Area but no longer visit because of the homeless problems in the city and the basic cost of CA.  I think the final straw was the last time we visited a Starbucks near Union Square and had to walk around the very smelly homeless guy living next to the front door.  Once inside DW had to request a key to the inside rest room which we thought was strange until it was explained that otherwise, a homeless person would move in the rest rooms and its nearly impossible to get them evicted.  Perhaps this is an exaggeration (about the homeless moving into rest rooms) but you get the point.  I still think that San Francisco is the most beautiful city in our country but its no longer a place I want to visit.

 

Hank

Despite current rhetoric to the contrary (e.g., "let's get rid of the homeless encampments"), the incumbent City/County administration doesn't appear to be willing to do the necessary investigation to disaggregate the complicated and mislabeled "homeless" mess such that previously hard working individuals/families who find themselves down and out would have priority for services while folks at the other end of the spectrum would be subject to vagrancy and other reasonable laws. 

And sadly, this is not just a San Francisco thing. Look at any cosmopolitan city worldwide and you'll see a similar problem. For example, we were most recently in Cape Town. Need I say more?

In any case (and not wanting to get into a political discussion), let's remember that SF Bay and the immediately adjacent NorCal coastline is more than just the City. Plenty to see/do/enjoy without encountering panhandlers.

BTW, we enjoy the occasional short hop to Mexican locations like PV or Zihua - but only because, as NorCal folks we find the beach going preferable to more crowded/expensive SoCal and it's convenient for us. But, if it's "weeks at a time" I wanted, I'd head to Kauai (which has so many Californians with second homes there - it may as well be called Western California).

[Hlitner]

8 minutes ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

Despite current rhetoric to the contrary (e.g., "let's get rid of the homeless encampments"), the incumbent City/County administration doesn't appear to be willing to do the necessary investigation to disaggregate the complicated and mislabeled "homeless" mess such that previously hard working individuals/families who find themselves down and out would have priority for services while folks at the other end of the spectrum would be subject to vagrancy and other reasonable laws. 

And sadly, this is not just a San Francisco thing. Look at any cosmopolitan city worldwide and you'll see a similar problem. For example, we were most recently in Cape Town. Need I say more?

In any case (and not wanting to get into a political discussion), let's remember that SF Bay and the immediately adjacent NorCal coastline is more than just the City. Plenty to see/do/enjoy without encountering panhandlers.

BTW, we enjoy the occasional short hop to Mexican locations like PV or Zihua - but only because, as NorCal folks we find the beach going preferable to more crowded/expensive SoCal and it's convenient for us. But, if it's "weeks at a time" I wanted, I'd head to Kauai (which has so many Californians with second homes there - it may as well be called Western California).

Now you are talking my language :).  We love both Kauai and Maui.....neither one of which allow we mere mainlanders to even visit (it is a strange new world).  When we retired we originally thought it might be nice to live in Maui during the winter but PV won out because it is much more reasonable (price wise) and has a similar winter climate as Maui.  Now, after 15 years in Mexico we are completely in love with PV, the people, the culture, the food, and the cost.  Unfortunately, PV (and much of Mexico) is now going through a terrible time with COVID-19 and we fear for our Mexican friends.

 

Hank

[Paulchili]

13 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Now, after 15 years in Mexico we are completely in love with PV, the people, the culture, the food, and the cost. 

Are there any drug war issues in PV like in Acapulco and many other places in Mexico?

Edited June 12, 2020 by Paulchili

[Hlitner]

1 hour ago, Paulchili said:

Are there any drug war issues in PV like in Acapulco and many other places in Mexico?

The short answer is not that tourists would normally notice.  PV is in the Mexican State of Jalisco.  Within Jalisco is a very powerful (and violent) cartel called (in English) the New Generations Cartel.  Within our State they apparently have no competition so, unlike in some parts of Mexico, we are not caught in the middle of a war between 2 or more cartels.  Some folks actually think that the cartel helps protect tourism because it is to their benefit.  They supposedly have some local business interests that are helpful to them for laundering money (some will say this is just rumor).   DW and I feel very safe in PV, in fact we have no problem walking late at night in the streets in most parts of the city.    Could all this change?  Absolutely.  But things have been great the entire 15 years that we have lived in PV.

 

Hank

[Paulchili]

2 hours ago, Hlitner said:

But things have been great the entire 15 years that we have lived in PV.

Glad it's all working well for you.

We've enjoyed PV every time we've visited there.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Paulchili

[CintiPam]

7 hours ago, Hlitner said:

Now you are talking my language :).  We love both Kauai and Maui.....neither one of which allow we mere mainlanders to even visit (it is a strange new world).  When we retired we originally thought it might be nice to live in Maui during the winter but PV won out because it is much more reasonable (price wise) and has a similar winter climate as Maui.  Now, after 15 years in Mexico we are completely in love with PV, the people, the culture, the food, and the cost.  Unfortunately, PV (and much of Mexico) is now going through a terrible time with COVID-19 and we fear for our Mexican friends.

 

Hank

OK, FF and Hank, now you are in trouble with me because I have avoided thinking about Hawaii for the past three months.  It was to be our destination this summer for our very first visit (and not by cruise ship so we would have more time to visit three islands.) I always have wanted to visit since my older sister had a college roommate from Hawaii (so a couple of years ago, LOL) but our longer vacation trips have been very Eurocentric.  Hopefully 2021.  

 

We fortunately have crammed in a great deal of travel since my husband fully retired two years ago so I truly cannot complain from my suburban home in a state where our Governor Mike DeWine has been very proactive in Covid-19 scientifically-based response.

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by CintiPam

[Flatbush Flyer]

1 hour ago, CintiPam said:

 ...I have avoided thinking about Hawaii for the past three months.  .... I always have wanted to visit ... Hopefully 2021.  

Nāpali Coast, Kauai

[HappyCruiserettu]

I like what I am seeing on this list. We are considering the Oct 28 Sirena sailing (Thens-Haifa).it is showing. Yaaay!

 

[KS&JW]

11 hours ago, CintiPam said:

OK, FF and Hank, now you are in trouble with me because I have avoided thinking about Hawaii for the past three months.  It was to be our destination this summer for our very first visit (and not by cruise ship so we would have more time to visit three islands.) I always have wanted to visit since my older sister had a college roommate from Hawaii (so a couple of years ago, LOL) but our longer vacation trips have been very Eurocentric.  Hopefully 2021.  

 

We fortunately have crammed in a great deal of travel since my husband fully retired two years ago so I truly cannot complain from my suburban home in a state where our Governor Mike DeWine has been very proactive in Covid-19 scientifically-based response.

 

 

I was in Hawai'i when the Covid situation just hit its first level of craziness in early March. We flew back and immediately went into lockdown as California was early with the Shelter in Place order.  It was nice to have a nice relaxing trip before having to stay at home for what is now 3 months.    Like many Californians, we visit Hawai'i often.  It is a quick flight for us and excellent place to de-stress.   I hope you are able to get your trip in 2021.  

[cruisemom42]

23 hours ago, Paulchili said:

All that said, you only need a couple of Covid passengers or staff to become Diamond Princess (or any number of other ships like that) all over again.

 

This gets to the heart of my concern.

 

I am less concerned, personally, about contracting COVID-19 while aboard a ship, so long as I were convinced that there is a firm plan in place to deal with that contingency. 

 

I do not necessarily need to know that there is a vaccine and 100% control of disease before I cruise. But I do want to know that the ship -- and the appropriate world/country authorities -- are prepared to deal with the situation if it does occur. That includes an understanding that ships can disembark (or medivac if necessary) seriously ill passengers, as well as some kind of rules that ensure ships do not face the situation of having port after port deny them entry will ill passengers onboard.

 

 

[Paulchili]

11 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

I do not necessarily need to know that there is a vaccine and 100% control of disease before I cruise. But I do want to know that the ship -- and the appropriate world/country authorities -- are prepared to deal with the situation if it does occur. That includes an understanding that ships can disembark (or medivac if necessary) seriously ill passengers, as well as some kind of rules that ensure ships do not face the situation of having port after port deny them entry will ill passengers onboard.

I understand your concerns but it will be easier to find out about the existence of vaccines or treatment than what and how individual countries will react to another wave. Their policy can change in a second while you are already onboard.

Hopefully a lot has been learned from recent situations of onboard COVID cases and how to handle them best.

[cruisemom42]

Just now, Paulchili said:

I understand your concerns but it will be easier to find out about the existence of vaccines or treatment than what and how individual countries will react to another wave. Their policy can change in a second while you are already onboard.

Hopefully a lot has been learned from recent situations of onboard COVID cases and how to handle them best.

 

But I think that is part of the planning that CDC is requiring of ships -- how do they handle outbreaks onboard ships and how do they get ill passengers the necessary treatment. So I think that at least with regard to ships that touch US ports, there would be information available.  Would that I knew it applied everywhere....  (Not a big fan of US cruises.)

 

[Petoonya]

40 minutes ago, Paulchili said:

I Their policy can change in a second while you are already onboard.

Windstar begins sailing to French Polynesia in Sept. While FP was one of the early places to close up shop to tourists/cruise ships, they are relaxing them. Air Tahiti will begin flights in July. It looks like those cruisers in Sept will need to provide proof of travel health insurance and a COVID test with results in the prior 72 hours to commencing a flight. Can't see how that will help as a lot of COVID tests not available till after 72 hours.

Now with cases on the rise in in the USA who know what their policy will be now or after you've packed your bags- and who knows what it'll be if you board.

It seems terribly early to allow even a small cruise ship. Don't get it.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Petoonya

[KS&JW]

1 hour ago, Petoonya said:

 It looks like those cruisers in Sept will need to provide proof of travel health insurance and a COVID test with results in the prior 72 hours to commencing a flight. Can't see how that will help as a lot of COVID tests not available till after 72 hours.

 

 

When I saw the Tahiti was opening up and I could use AA miles to get there I was tempted.  There is a local drive up testing sight that you receive results back within 3 days, while most seem to get results back within a day.    However, you would need everything to work out just right to be able to get on the plane.  If your test results are late, you are out of luck.  I don't need that kind of stress to start a vacation.   Plus as you say, they could easily change the rules between now and then

[Paulchili]

Besides, I am not worrying about my COVID status as much as that of others that I would encounter on the plane/cruise.

I might leave home negative because I am sheltering in place and doing everything right only to return positive.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Paulchili

[Aloha 1]

On 6/12/2020 at 11:45 AM, Paulchili said:

All that said, you only need a couple of Covid passengers or staff to become Diamond Princess (or any number of other ships like that) all over again.

Paul, the problem with the Diamond Princess( been on her twice) was the Japanese Government's decision to initially quarantine the ship and not allow any passenger off including the two who were ill. That resulted in many more contracting the virus. Had they removed the first two to hospital, things could have been significantly different.

 

All our thoughts right now are nothing more than speculation. We have a 20 day South America cruise scheduled for December, are in the "vulnerable" age bracket, but have confidence in science that treatments and/or vaccines will be available sooner than most think. Heck, one vaccine candidate is now going to Phase 3 trials with 30,000 subjects. That's a huge development because it means no negative medical issues have arisen in Phases 1 and 2 and that there is efficacy in this vaccine.

[Petoonya]

3 minutes ago, Aloha 1 said:

Paul, the problem with the Diamond Princess( been on her twice) was the Japanese Government's decision to initially quarantine the ship and not allow any passenger off including the two who were ill. That resulted in many more contracting the virus. Had they removed the first two to hospital, things could have been significantly different.

I might be wrong here and correct me if so. But had they removed the first two, they'd still be stuck quarantining the rest. And finding hotel space, and the willingness lacking, there may have been no alternative to keep them on the ship. COVID tests would do no good as early exposure can test negative. Not only do you have passengers but also crew. Maybe governments could have stepped in faster and brought the folks back home sooner to quarantine but there was not as much known about the virus as now and perhaps even more fear.

Again anyone correct me if I'm wrong.

[clo]

2 hours ago, Paulchili said:

Besides, I am not worrying about my COVID status as much as that of others that I would encounter on the plane/cruise.

I might leave home negative because I am sheltering in place and doing everything right only to return positive.

Did you see the NEJM article over on "Ask a Cruise Question"? I don't know if something is allowed to be posted twice. IMO it's a really big deal.

[njhorseman]

1 hour ago, Aloha 1 said:

Paul, the problem with the Diamond Princess( been on her twice) was the Japanese Government's decision to initially quarantine the ship and not allow any passenger off including the two who were ill. That resulted in many more contracting the virus. Had they removed the first two to hospital, things could have been significantly different.

 

All our thoughts right now are nothing more than speculation. We have a 20 day South America cruise scheduled for December, are in the "vulnerable" age bracket, but have confidence in science that treatments and/or vaccines will be available sooner than most think. Heck, one vaccine candidate is now going to Phase 3 trials with 30,000 subjects. That's a huge development because it means no negative medical issues have arisen in Phases 1 and 2 and that there is efficacy in this vaccine.

The problem was not just with the Japanese government, but also with Princess' initial response to the crisis. What they did and didn't do early on allowed the spread of the virus. There was an ill passenger who had previously disembarked in Hong Kong but it wasn't until almost 48 hours after Princess was notified of that COVID-19 illness that they started to take their first steps toward stopping its spread. To make matters worse they didn't take strong enough measures early on, which further allowed the virus to spread.

 

Have you heard the saying "A day late and a dollar short" ? That describes Princess' actions on the ship pretty well...except they were two days late.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/08/world/asia/coronavirus-cruise-ship.html

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by njhorseman

[Hawaiidan]

4 hours ago, Paulchili said:

Besides, I am not worrying about my COVID status as much as that of others that I would encounter on the plane/cruise.

I might leave home negative because I am sheltering in place and doing everything right only to return positive.

Many people are testing positive and showing zero problems.    Nurses in many places  test positive and never get sick..   Not everyone exposed has problems.