EU Canada yes, USA no.

[TeeRick]

15 hours ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

Many virologists understand that the data provide for US numbers is about one-tenth of actual cases.  Yesterday new cases were over 52,000.  Let me repeat that: New cases over 52,000.  Actual numbers could eb as high as 10 times that, or around 500,000!

 

Do agree that totalitarian states like China and Russia can skew numbers.  I'll let WHO and institutions like Johns Hopkins and the US intelligence community figure what the real numbers are...  China's numbers are arguably small since they aggressively attacked the spread, quarantined people and shut down all movement.  Wearing masks in China, even before the arrival of COVID-19, was "normal" do to pollution. We, in the US, need to focus on containment, social distancing and wearing masks.

 

In the meantime, China's numbers have no bearing on cruising from US ports.  As US numbers increase daily and with some virologists expecting cases as high as 100,000/day ("official"), cruise ports will remain closed, cruise ships will remain in "storage," and tourists from overseas will remain blocked.

Ride....  I do not think the 10x is really supported by actual data one way or another as it is not really possible to collect it and assess it to date.  I would change your statement to "a few epidemiologists speculate" vs "many virologists understand".  So you can repeat your 10x number if you want but it currently is not supported by the data or in fact by "many virologists"  -and I am a virologist and vaccine scientist by training and through my career.  Please do not count me in your general statements about what virologists think or understand or believe.   Maybe you will find others but not me.    

 

But I do in fact agree with your conclusion- " We, in the US, need to focus on containment, social distancing and wearing masks".  No argument from me on the bottom line!

[Ride-The-Waves]

51 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Ride....  I do not think the 10x is really supported by actual data one way or another as it is not really possible to collect it and assess it to date.  I would change your statement to "a few epidemiologists speculate" vs "many virologists understand".  So you can repeat your 10x number if you want but it currently is not supported by the data or in fact by "many virologists"  -and I am a virologist and vaccine scientist by training and through my career.  Please do not count me in your general statements about what virologists think or understand or believe.   Maybe you will find others but not me.    

 

But I do in fact agree with your conclusion- " We, in the US, need to focus on containment, social distancing and wearing masks".  No argument from me on the bottom line!

"The number of people in the United States who have been infected with the coronavirusis likely to be 10 times as high as the 2.4 million confirmed cases, based on antibody tests, the head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Thursday (25 June).

 

"CDC Director Robert Redfield’s estimate, shared with reporters in a conference call, indicates that at least 24 million Americans have been infected so far.

 

"The antibody tests examine a person’s blood for indicators that the immune system has mounted a response to an infection. The serological surveys are being done around the country as epidemiologists try to measure the reach of the virus to date. Redfield said he believes 5 to 8 percent of the population has been infected so far."

 

As reported:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/25/coronavirus-cases-10-times-larger/  for the rest of the story.

[TeeRick]

30 minutes ago, Ride-The-Waves said:

"The number of people in the United States who have been infected with the coronavirusis likely to be 10 times as high as the 2.4 million confirmed cases, based on antibody tests, the head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Thursday (25 June).

 

"CDC Director Robert Redfield’s estimate, shared with reporters in a conference call, indicates that at least 24 million Americans have been infected so far.

 

"The antibody tests examine a person’s blood for indicators that the immune system has mounted a response to an infection. The serological surveys are being done around the country as epidemiologists try to measure the reach of the virus to date. Redfield said he believes 5 to 8 percent of the population has been infected so far."

 

As reported:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/06/25/coronavirus-cases-10-times-larger/  for the rest of the story.

Thank you.  I had seen Redfield's recent comments.  Until we see the actual data and understand the mix of antibody tests (some being inaccurate) and over what time period and what region of the US, he is still mostly speculating on his 10x estimate. It is my opinion that I express here. That's what I was pointing out in my post.  I cannot agree or disagree without data.  Antibody tests do not reflect the current infection rate but more the cumulative infections over months- but we do not even know the lifetime of the circulating IgG antibodies measured.     I do agree that cases are likely underestimated.  He is trying to sound the alarm along with Fauci that people need to take CDC measures seriously to contain this thing.  Totally agree with that no matter what the number is.  Thanks for the discussion.

[Oceangoer2]

15 hours ago, Diamond lover said:

I was so excited when the EU announced on June 30th that it was opening its borders, sans quarantine, to Canadians, I immediately booked a flight to Italy, July 9-19.  I wasn’t worried about wearing masks and sanitizing hands constantly, I miss Italy, and wanted to visit Toscana during peak sunflower season, and enjoy a relatively tourist free Italy.  And try to come to terms with missing my grandsons Christening (in the UK in April), miss my girls trip to Italy in May, a family reunion in Croatia in June, my Mum dying of Covid in May.....and then the announcement that my daughter’s wedding had to be postponed.  Really felt this trip would help me heal.

 

Of course, the very next day, Italy announced it would NOT be joining the other EU countries in this....that we would still have to quarantine.  And I have to cancel again. And just for kicks, my beautiful 13 year old dog died later that night.
 

Sigh.  2020 has officially defeated me.

I am so sorry..... you've had more than your share of sad events to deal with.  

[4774Papa]

We live on an island on coastal Georgia and like the rest of the state were doing well, until after Memorial Day.

 

We were inundated with tourists (as we usually are this time of the year), but contrary to most of the locals, the tourists didn't wear masks.  We have lots of tourist from the NE (NY, NJ) as well as all states up between.  Also, we have folks from Atlanta and  the rest of Georgia.

 

Consequently, our COVID-19 cases have gone up from by a factor of 4 times since then.  Still, for a county of over 85,000 we have only had six fatalities, almost all from nursing homes.   Friends of ours complain that they can't visit their loved ones now, but they understand the reason why.

 

We have a full house again for the Independence Day Weekend.  I plan to go out to pickup our meal tonight, wearing a mask.  Hope to see more masks this weekend.

[yorky]

From Monday in Scotland it’s against the law to go into a shop without wearing a face mask.

[Fouremco]

36 minutes ago, yorky said:

From Monday in Scotland it’s against the law to go into a shop without wearing a face mask.

There has been some debate over the requirement here, and some municipalities are in the process of making masks mandatory, but there is no Canada-wide requirement to date. Nevertheless, the majority of people that I encounter in shops are wearing one, and numerous polls have shown Canadians to be in favour of wearing masks in public.

[Miaminice]

1 hour ago, yorky said:

From Monday in Scotland it’s against the law to go into a shop without wearing a face mask.

From Monday?!?! 
Here in Germany masks in shops etc. are mandatory for months already.

 

[yorky]

31 minutes ago, Miaminice said:

From Monday?!?! 
Here in Germany masks in shops etc. are mandatory for months already.

 

Yep Monday here. We are however doing pretty well now in Scotland regardless. Just 12 new confirmed cases today.

Edited July 3, 2020 by yorky

[upwarduk]

40 minutes ago, yorky said:

Yep Monday here. We are however doing pretty well now in Scotland regardless. Just 12 new confirmed cases today.

No new deaths in Yorkshire today and I believe we have a larger population than the whole of Scotland.

[yorky]

6 minutes ago, upwarduk said:

No new deaths in Yorkshire today and I believe we have a larger population than the whole of Scotland.

I’m a Yorkshireman and still get down two or three times a year. My mum is in a care home in Scarborough and my Brother lives there. He says the numbers are very low on the east coast.

[Arizona Wildcat]

1 minute ago, yorky said:

I’m a Yorkshireman and still get down two or three times a year. My mum is in a care home in Scarborough and my Brother lives there. He says the numbers are very low on the east coast.

That is good.  To the subject of cruising. . . until there is a vaccine in my opinion there is little likelihood of cruising resuming.  The problem with COVID numbers is thousands of younger people 18-40 have had it worldwide and were never tested.  Real numbers are likely much higher everywhere.

[Manchester is blue]

21 hours ago, Blackduck59 said:

said:

Since you are both independent sister countries under the Queen, how is the border situation with the UK which now does not fall under the EU?  Just wondering.  I have not seen anything

What has Her Majesty got to do with this ?
 

[sgmn]

2 hours ago, yorky said:

From Monday in Scotland it’s against the law to go into a shop without wearing a face mask.

Wish we had the same in England. I fear our rates will go up with the easing of restrictions from tomorrow 

[Blackduck59]

22 minutes ago, Manchester is blue said:

What has Her Majesty got to do with this ?
 

Not sure how you managed to create that quote accredited to me, that sentence is part of a question to me from TeeRick so ask them. They are American and had a legitimate question that both Fouremco and I tried to explain. Please feel free to look back to the original posts they are self explanatory.

[Manchester is blue]

13 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

Not sure how you managed to create that quote accredited to me, that sentence is part of a question to me from TeeRick so ask them. They are American and had a legitimate question that both Fouremco and I tried to explain. Please feel free to look back to the original posts they are self explanatory.

Apologies Blackduck,59,...you are  quite right, my question was posed toward TeeRick, not yourself. 
TeeRick, perhaps for the purposes of clarity you would care to elaborate as to why you feel it necessary to bring HM the Queen into the debate about a global pandemic.

regards.

Edited July 3, 2020 by Manchester is blue
Further question and apology

[Diamond lover]

8 hours ago, oceangoer2 said:

I am so sorry..... you've had more than your share of sad events to deal with.  

thank you.  I am sorry I  “vetted” on here.  I was feeling very sorry for myself, and there may have been some Pinot Grigio in the equation....

 

but I stand firm on my last post.  WE ALL NEED A CRUISE!!

[Ride-The-Waves]

Perloined the below links from another thread and believe they are pertinent to this discussion.  We are beginning to see some respective authorities' thinking on what cruising will be like in the future.  Doesn't bode well for some of us.  In particular guidance concerning passengers over 65 awith just about any kind of health challenge which most have at that age.

 

There is no requirement that older people or those with underlying health conditions obtain a doctor's note to cruise. However, anyone over 65 or those of any age with chronic disease (cardiovascular, diabetes, respiratory) and immunocompromised individuals should be advised to see a doctor to assess if they are fit to travel, the guidance stated.

 

http://www.sailcosta.com/8115_Safety/8115.03_FAQs.pdf

 

https://www.seatrade-cruise.com/news/eu-healthy-gateways-issues-covid-19-guidance-restarting-cruise-operations

 

If these are in fact the new guidance cruising will become a challenge for many of us.  Personally, we are not interested in 3-7 day cruises Caribbean style.  Been there, done that.  The requirement for ports to have emergency services to take care of any COVID-19 patients further limits cruise ship destinations.  Wearing masks in public areas, the dining challenges, entertainment "reductions" and limits all negatively impact cruising for us.

 

This is over and above the challenges of transiting between countries which will also impact these new rules and practices.  My experience with itineraries from discussions with captains and masters is that itinerary planning is at least a two-year process.  It begins with the current captain/master designing the itinerary based on general guidance from headquarters to enable navigation and speed decisions, review by headquarters to enable publishing itineraries, back to the ship's navigation staff to finalize exact times, courses, tides, safety, etc.  Now add in these new restrictions and this becomes increasingly complex especially with international travel to get to/from a port is considered.

[hvbaskey]

3 hours ago, Fouremco said:

There has been some debate over the requirement here, and some municipalities are in the process of making masks mandatory, but there is no Canada-wide requirement to date. Nevertheless, the majority of people that I encounter in shops are wearing one, and numerous polls have shown Canadians to be in favour of wearing masks in public.

 

The municipality that I live in (Ontario, Canada), masks are mandatory.  Halton Hills (our neighbours), it is not mandatory.   Mandatory / Non-mandatory - it’s a whatever.   In both counties / municipalities, no one is throwing a fit and mostly everyone wear masks voluntarily.   If you are not  masked, you look like the odd apple in the bunch of oranges.

The challenge now is to make it fashionable (part of your ensemble), it’s not IF to wear a mask, it’s how - LOL!

[Fouremco]

3 minutes ago, hvbaskey said:

The challenge now is to make it fashionable (part of your ensemble), it’s not IF to wear a mask, it's how - LOL!

That's right, I'm now the height of fashion! I've traded in a mask and snorkel for just a mask!

[Diamond lover]

9 minutes ago, hvbaskey said:

 

The municipality that I live in (Ontario, Canada), masks are mandatory.  Halton Hills (our neighbours), it is not mandatory.   Mandatory / Non-mandatory - it’s a whatever.   In both counties / municipalities, no one is throwing a fit and mostly everyone wear masks voluntarily.   If you are not  masked, you look like the odd apple in the bunch of oranges.

The challenge now is to make it fashionable (part of your ensemble), it’s not IF to wear a mask, it’s how - LOL!

i have a mask for most of my outfits.  And in case I get overseas, many Canadian ones, so people don’t ask where in the US I live lol. I also got some Toronto Maple Leafs and Toronto Raptors masks. Might as well make it fun, it is here for a while yet!

[Fouremco]

1 hour ago, Manchester is blue said:

Apologies Blackduck,59,...you are  quite right, my question was posed toward TeeRick, not yourself. 
TeeRick, perhaps for the purposes of clarity you would care to elaborate as to why you feel it necessary to bring HM the Queen into the debate about a global pandemic.

regards.

This thread isn't just discussion of a global pandemic, it's a more focussed discussion of the EU's opening of its borders to citizens of a small number of countries, including Canada but excluding the US.

 

As you know, Her Majesty is also the Queen of Canada, and the two countries enjoy a very special relationship because of it. One result has been that travel between the two nations has been easier over the years than for citizens of other countries. Then came the pandemic and old travel policies went out the window. Now, with Brexit on the one hand and the EU's decision to allow Canadians to enter now, @TeeRick's question about Canada - UK travel seems quite in keeping with the thread.

 

[Germancruiser]

All problems aside- i wish my American friends, from the bottom of my heart a happy and healthy Independence Day!

For those who are suffering from the virus itself, for those which are otherwise effeceted of the virus- a speed recovery.

I had the pleasure to be in NYC during the festivites of the 4th of July in 2016- never to forget- who would have thought that we find each other in life so changed only four years later!

Edited July 4, 2020 by Germancruiser

[Bo1953]

11 hours ago, Diamond lover said:

thank you.  I am sorry I  “vetted” on here.  I was feeling very sorry for myself, and there may have been some Pinot Grigio in the equation....

 

but I stand firm on my last post.  WE ALL NEED A CRUISE!!

d - no need to apologize about your post, sometimes it is legitimate and needed...

 

Many of us understand and accept it as such.

 

Yes, most of us need a cruise... LOL

 

bon voyage

[hvbaskey]

On 7/2/2020 at 9:20 PM, Blackduck59 said:

 

I think fouremco beat me to it just be cause the EU says it's okay for Canadians to travel there our Government hasn't said it's okay. Apparently we can go but be prepared to go through the whole Quarantine routine when you get back.

 

The Canadian Quarantine Act is extended until the end of August (which likely will be extended further):
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/travel-ban-extended-july-1.5632625?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar&fbclid=IwAR2brfbjkiMuNULhPnu9M8KUqAI7oSyORB9cXbFnBWNkEsgVWRu05-5fpzg

 

"Maximum penalties for failing to comply with the Quarantine Act include a fine of up to $750,000 and/or imprisonment for six months. If someone jeopardizes another's life while wilfully or recklessly contravening the act, the penalties are even greater: $1 million or three years in prison, or both."

"The EU said Tuesday it expects countries on that list to lift any bans they might have in place on European travellers. 

 

Last week, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau pushed back against pressure to relax the ban on international travellers, arguing that moving too quickly could spark a second wave of the coronavirus.

"We are going to be very, very careful about when and how we start reopening international borders," Trudeau said at a briefing on June 22."

 

"I understand how difficult this is and how frustrating this is for some people, but we know that reopening too quickly or carelessly would lead us to a resurgence that might well force us to go back into lockdown, to shut down the economy once again, and nobody wants that."

 

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by hvbaskey