Are vaccines the light at the end of the tunnel?

[D C]

4 minutes ago, Jeremiah1212 said:

 

Test (simulated) cruises do not have the 95% vaccination threshold guideline. You can be vaccinated or state you are not at high risk. As part of the simulated cruise requirements, there is testing at debarkation and again 3-5 days after that. 

 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/ti-simulated-voyages-cso.html

 

Requirements Relating to Laboratory Testing

 

That just seems weird.  Stack the deck on test cruises with 100% vaccinated people, have no issues, and you're good to go? 

[TeeRick]

1 hour ago, D C said:

Haven't seen this posted before (that I can recall).  Interesting to see the comparisons of the various variants (that seems redundantly redundant).

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/coronavirus-variant-tracker.html

Thank you.  This is a very good review of the changes with excellent illustrations.  I had not see this before.  A good reference.

[cangelmd]

4 hours ago, TeeRick said:

 

And a NEJM real world study with good data against variants for the Pfizer vaccine.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2104974?query=featured_coronavirus

Thank you for digging that out, that should be a headline soon.

Equal or near equal  efficacy against severe disease as the original virus is about as good as you can expect. Just need to increase vaccination numbers to decrease generation of variants.

[Homosassa]

On 5/4/2021 at 10:50 PM, markeb said:

Actually he’s referencing male infertility.

"She's"😀

[paulh84]

3 hours ago, D C said:

That just seems weird.  Stack the deck on test cruises with 100% vaccinated people, have no issues, and you're good to go? 

 

There is detail buried down in the text that makes more sense. As part of simulated cruises they have to carry out several defined test activities and one of those activities is basically handling a COVID outbreak on board. So they are saying if you go the mostly vaccinated route, that part is overkill and you can skip it. But if you want to cruise with less than 95% of your passengers vaccinated, you must produce evidence you can do these things below.

 

🔻

 

Requirements Relating to the General Components of a Simulation and Simulated Activities

 

The following activities must be simulated onboard each ship for which the cruise ship operator intends to commence restricted passenger voyages before applying for a COVID-19 Conditional Sailing Certificate. However, at the cruise ship operator’s discretion, these activities may be conducted as part of the same simulated voyage or as part of separate simulated voyages:

1. Embarkation and disembarkation procedures, as approved by U.S. port and local health authorities as part the cruise ship operator’s Phase 2A agreements, including procedures for terminal check-in.
2. Onboard activities, including seating and meal service at dining and entertainment venues.
3. Medical evacuation procedures.
4. Transfer of symptomatic passengers or crew, or those who test positive for SARS-CoV-2, from cabins to isolation rooms.
5. Onboard and shoreside isolation and quarantine, as per the terms of the cruise ship operator’s Phase 2A agreements, of at least 5% of all passengers and non-essential crew.
6. Recreational activities that the cruise ship operator intends to offer as part of any restricted passenger voyages, e.g., casinos, spa services, fitness classes, gymnasiums.
7. Private-island shore excursions if any are planned during restricted passenger voyages. The following measures must be observed on the private island:
8. Only one ship can port at the island at any one time.
9. A routine screening testing protocol must be implemented for island staff who are expected to interact with volunteer passengers or crew.
10. Mask use and social distancing must be observed on the island.
11. Port of call shore excursions if any are planned during restricted passenger voyages. The following measures must be observed on port of call shore excursions:
12. Self-guided or independent exploration by passengers during port stops must be prohibited.
13. Shore excursions must only include passengers and crew from the same ship.
14. Cruise ship operator must ensure all shore excursion tour companies facilitate social distancing, mask wearing, and other COVID-19 public health measures throughout the tour.
15. Cruise ship operators must have a protocol for managing persons with COVID-19 and close contacts at all foreign ports of call. At a minimum, the protocol must include the following:

• Disembarkation and housing of persons with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 needing shore-based hospital care and their travel companion(s) for the duration of their isolation or quarantine period.
• Commercial repatriation of U.S.-based persons with COVID-19 and close contacts only after meeting criteria to end isolation and quarantine per CDC guidance. For commercial repatriation of foreign-based persons with COVID-19 and close contacts, cruise ship operators must consult with all relevant public health authorities.

 

Full list:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/ti-simulated-voyages-cso.html

[LGW59]

7 hours ago, TeeRick said:

LGW59.  Serious and honest question for you  If you enjoy continuously mocking the "experts" here on this thread which you do quite often, why do you continue to come here and post?  

Serious response for you as well, it is social media, how do I know any of you are experts?  Fair question I think, and because I challenge does not mean I am mocking.  I do not rely on social media to inform myself.  That said, probably some here are “experts “ but I do not rely on what anyone in the social media world tells me.  And I am a total vax supporter, was one of the unfortunate ones to have a horrible reaction to Moderna shot #2.  And to be clear, I am VERY happy to have been vaccinated, regardless of the reaction to shot #2.

Edited May 6, 2021 by LGW59

[hcat]

5 hours ago, paulh84 said:

 

There is detail buried down in the text that makes more sense. As part of simulated cruises they have to carry out several defined test activities and one of those activities is basically handling a COVID outbreak on board. So they are saying if you go the mostly vaccinated route, that part is overkill and you can skip it. But if you want to cruise with less than 95% of your passengers vaccinated, you must produce evidence you can do these things below.

 

🔻

 

Requirements Relating to the General Components of a Simulation and Simulated Activities

 

The following activities must be simulated onboard each ship for which the cruise ship operator intends to commence restricted passenger voyages before applying for a COVID-19 Conditional Sailing Certificate. However, at the cruise ship operator’s discretion, these activities may be conducted as part of the same simulated voyage or as part of separate simulated voyages:

1. Embarkation and disembarkation procedures, as approved by U.S. port and local health authorities as part the cruise ship operator’s Phase 2A agreements, including procedures for terminal check-in.
2. Onboard activities, including seating and meal service at dining and entertainment venues.
3. Medical evacuation procedures.
4. Transfer of symptomatic passengers or crew, or those who test positive for SARS-CoV-2, from cabins to isolation rooms.
5. Onboard and shoreside isolation and quarantine, as per the terms of the cruise ship operator’s Phase 2A agreements, of at least 5% of all passengers and non-essential crew.
6. Recreational activities that the cruise ship operator intends to offer as part of any restricted passenger voyages, e.g., casinos, spa services, fitness classes, gymnasiums.
7. Private-island shore excursions if any are planned during restricted passenger voyages. The following measures must be observed on the private island:
8. Only one ship can port at the island at any one time.
9. A routine screening testing protocol must be implemented for island staff who are expected to interact with volunteer passengers or crew.
10. Mask use and social distancing must be observed on the island.
11. Port of call shore excursions if any are planned during restricted passenger voyages. The following measures must be observed on port of call shore excursions:
12. Self-guided or independent exploration by passengers during port stops must be prohibited.
13. Shore excursions must only include passengers and crew from the same ship.
14. Cruise ship operator must ensure all shore excursion tour companies facilitate social distancing, mask wearing, and other COVID-19 public health measures throughout the tour.
15. Cruise ship operators must have a protocol for managing persons with COVID-19 and close contacts at all foreign ports of call. At a minimum, the protocol must include the following:

• Disembarkation and housing of persons with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 needing shore-based hospital care and their travel companion(s) for the duration of their isolation or quarantine period.
• Commercial repatriation of U.S.-based persons with COVID-19 and close contacts only after meeting criteria to end isolation and quarantine per CDC guidance. For commercial repatriation of foreign-based persons with COVID-19 and close contacts, cruise ship operators must consult with all relevant public health authorities.

 

Full list:

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/cruise/ti-simulated-voyages-cso.html

Seems very stringent..  will  cruise lines only take vaccinated pax to meet the 95%  vax mark?  How recently will pax have to have received the shots? Testing?

 

If there are test cruises without 95 % vaccinated that involve meeting all the listed critetia..will volunteer pax pay  any fare?  Will they be given free trvl and health insurance?

 

Guess we will all stay tuned...at least there has been movement,

[K.T.B.]

5 hours ago, LGW59 said:

Serious response for you as well, it is social media, how do I know any of you are experts?  Fair question I think, and because I challenge does not mean I am mocking.  I do not rely on social media to inform myself.  That said, probably some here are “experts “ but I do not rely on what anyone in the social media world tells me.  And I am a total vax supporter, was one of the unfortunate ones to have a horrible reaction to Moderna shot #2.  And to be clear, I am VERY happy to have been vaccinated, regardless of the reaction to shot #2.

 

I know you directed the response to TeeRick, but here we go.  You're obviously mocking.  As far as there are quite a few doctors in this thread who have given their expertise.  I know there's at least one member who has posted in this thread whose son(?) was involved in the creation of one of the vaccines.  So if you had been involved with this thread from the very beginning, you would know who the experts are, who the well read people are, and who the BSers are...  TeeRick is definitely one of the very well read ones in here, by the way.

 

Just because this is a "just a message board", don't be so quick to dismiss people.

[Oville]

31 minutes ago, K.T.B. said:

 

I know you directed the response to TeeRick, but here we go.  You're obviously mocking.  As far as there are quite a few doctors in this thread who have given their expertise.  I know there's at least one member who has posted in this thread whose son(?) was involved in the creation of one of the vaccines.  So if you had been involved with this thread from the very beginning, you would know who the experts are, who the well read people are, and who the BSers are...  TeeRick is definitely one of the very well read ones in here, by the way.

 

Just because this is a "just a message board", don't be so quick to dismiss people.

Kevin, thank you and I do believe that TeeRick and others are giving us very helpful information that we should all be thankful to receive. This was not the first time these folks have been questioned by this guy as you stated.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Oville

[nocl]

On 4/29/2021 at 5:46 AM, TeeRick said:

It is your last paragraph here that reinforces my point and I agree strongly.  CEO's of public companies in the US really do not comment on trial data before it is released.  A few months ago AZ got in trouble for this with their vaccine.  So I find it unusual that these corporate leaders are making these type of comments about need for boosters without any data being released beyond 6 months (AB data which was still very good).  They very well might know something about data in their trials but they are not supposed to say anything about it publicly.  This is my only point really that I keep coming to here.  

You were asking for data. so your company does not release data before the trials end either.

 

However, it is not unusual for a company to give an indication such as this one that they expect the need within a range of time.

 

Also big difference from what AZ did where they made claims of results on incomplete data.

 

If you notice both Moderna and Pfizer are starting to narrow down the range.

 

what they are doing is giving both the public and the medical community to plan that boosters will be needed. Such that plans can be made since if the lower range of Modernas comments hold they need to be planning for how they are going to deal with boosters in 2 to 3 months. Quite a surprise and shock to folks if they did not give anyone a heads up while waiting for trial completion.

 

The good news is that in the US boosters using original vaccine will be available. though new vaccines built around b.1.351 will be difficult to manufacturer with the EU and other orders for vacce consuming all manufacturing capacity.

[D C]

17 hours ago, TeeRick said:

Thank you.  This is a very good review of the changes with excellent illustrations.  I had not see this before.  A good reference.

I thought you, in particular, might find it interesting.  My daughter, the hopeful Physician Assistant, came across that variant chart in her microbiology class this term, I believe.  Funny how many of the questions in her class centered around one particular virus. 

[TeeRick]

15 hours ago, LGW59 said:

Serious response for you as well, it is social media, how do I know any of you are experts?  Fair question I think, and because I challenge does not mean I am mocking.  I do not rely on social media to inform myself.  That said, probably some here are “experts “ but I do not rely on what anyone in the social media world tells me.  And I am a total vax supporter, was one of the unfortunate ones to have a horrible reaction to Moderna shot #2.  And to be clear, I am VERY happy to have been vaccinated, regardless of the reaction to shot #2.

Actually you do not know us and our credentials and we cannot post this information.  So yes that is a fair point.  So all we can do is answer questions that are asked here to us and contribute accumulated knowledge and that will be the basis of the evaluation of our credentials.  If you find this lacking then that is OK with me.  We are not in the social media world with websites and videos and sales pitches.  We are contributing to the limited social media world that we enjoy called Cruise Critic on a thread.  As avid cruisers with medical, scientific and vaccine backgrounds.  Nobody is here for any reason other than that.  So if you want to continue to take your shots go right ahead.  Others actually state that they find this thread helpful. 

[TrulyBlonde]

I trust the info I get here on this board more than I trust what I would get from CNN. Thank you for your contributions. Always interesting.

[Ken the cruiser]

I believe this is a pretty BIG step. Yay Pfizer and BioNTech!

 

Pfizer-BioNTech begins process of seeking full U.S. approval for Covid vaccine (cnbc.com)

[Pinboy]

16 hours ago, LGW59 said:

Serious response for you as well, it is social media, how do I know any of you are experts?  Fair question I think, and because I challenge does not mean I am mocking.  I do not rely on social media to inform myself.  That said, probably some here are “experts “ but I do not rely on what anyone in the social media world tells me.  

" Without prejudice "---

On another thread you questioned why I post on every vaccine thread to which I mentioned that I had not ---

I'm not qualified to comment on vaccines or whether to " take 2 aspirins and call me in the morning ".

However, I have read quite a bit on this thread and appreciate the advice from whom you refer to as " experts ".

IMO---- they are Experts and I'm very appreciative of the time and " effort " they take to inform us.

So, If you do not rely on what " anyone " says on social media , why waste time reading and posting on it ?  

 

 

 

 

[TeeRick]

50 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

I believe this is a pretty BIG step. Yay Pfizer and BioNTech!

 

Pfizer-BioNTech begins process of seeking full U.S. approval for Covid vaccine (cnbc.com)

Thanks Ken.  If you go back a day or two starting at #5129 we had some discussion about these BLA's and how they might affect EUA's from AZ and Novavax in the US.

[TeeRick]

10 hours ago, nocl said:

You were asking for data. so your company does not release data before the trials end either.

 

However, it is not unusual for a company to give an indication such as this one that they expect the need within a range of time.

 

Also big difference from what AZ did where they made claims of results on incomplete data.

 

If you notice both Moderna and Pfizer are starting to narrow down the range.

 

what they are doing is giving both the public and the medical community to plan that boosters will be needed. Such that plans can be made since if the lower range of Modernas comments hold they need to be planning for how they are going to deal with boosters in 2 to 3 months. Quite a surprise and shock to folks if they did not give anyone a heads up while waiting for trial completion.

 

The good news is that in the US boosters using original vaccine will be available. though new vaccines built around b.1.351 will be difficult to manufacturer with the EU and other orders for vacce consuming all manufacturing capacity.

Yes you raise a good point about manufacturing capacity and how/when to switch if an alternative variant booster vaccine is needed.  

Edited May 7, 2021 by TeeRick

[Denny01]

For those that aren’t ‘anti-vax’, but are concerned about these vaccines being experimental in their approval, Pfizer and Moderna are getting close to be fully approved, and soon. So please strongly consider this. It’s a major step, mainly in our general understanding of their effectiveness and their safety. 

 

And, said as nicely as possible, taking the vaccine does protect you but it also very importantly protects our family, friends and community, and helps big time in negating dangerous variants. 

 

And I’m an ‘Expert’ because I spent last night in a Holiday Inn!! (Not really, I just listen to the rational voices on this forum and what is being presented directly by documented experts other places).

 

Let’s get Vaccinated and Let’s Go Cruise - and protect our communities at home!

 

Den 

 

 

[ChutChut]

23 minutes ago, Denny01 said:

For those that aren’t ‘anti-vax’, but are concerned about these vaccines being experimental in their approval, Pfizer and Moderna are getting close to be fully approved, and soon. So please strongly consider this. It’s a major step, mainly in our general understanding of their effectiveness and their safety. 

 

And, said as nicely as possible, taking the vaccine does protect you but it also very importantly protects our family, friends and community, and helps big time in negating dangerous variants. 

 

And I’m an ‘Expert’ because I spent last night in a Holiday Inn!! (Not really, I just listen to the rational voices on this forum and what is being presented directly by documented experts other places).

 

Let’s get Vaccinated and Let’s Go Cruise - and protect our communities at home!

 

Den 

 

 

Agree with everything you posted. Just a little addition -  I respect everyone's individual decision regarding their vaccination status not only for Covid but for the flu, etc. That's a private medical decision and I have no business imposing my views (pro-vaccine) on them.  My daughter has attended school with many unvaccinated children (personal/religious, etc. objections). As long as my daughter has her vaccinations, we live a normal, happy life.  I realize I may be sitting next to someone on a plane who is HIV positive, has mono, tuberculosis, etc. That's a risk of living on a planet with billions of people. I've done what I feel is medically prudent for myself and my family. Every family is entitled to that without recrimination.   

[mayleeman]

3 hours ago, Pinboy said:

IMO---- they are Experts and I'm very appreciative of the time and " effort " they take to inform us

 

If they aren't experts, they certainly are very creative writers who must have done lots of research in the same source material. Soooo...they will do as experts for me until LGW drags someone more convincing into the fray!

[hcat]

Anyone see article that Norwegian may skip Fla ports  due to perceived conflict between CDC Guideline and Fla law saying businesses can't req employees to vaccinate ? 

Not clear on details but saw it pass by..

No easy answers.

[Fouremco]

4 minutes ago, hcat said:

Anyone see article that Norwegian may skip Fla ports  due to perceived conflict between CDC Guideline and Fla law saying businesses can't req employees to vaccinate ? 

Not clear on details but saw it pass by..

No easy answers.

Yes, FDR is threatening to pull NCL out of Florida should the ridiculous Florida law be allowed to take precedence over common sense. What's less clear is how he thinks NCL will regroup for the winter season with no Florida ports. Stay tuned!

[TeeRick]

3 hours ago, ChutChut said:

Agree with everything you posted. Just a little addition -  I respect everyone's individual decision regarding their vaccination status not only for Covid but for the flu, etc. That's a private medical decision and I have no business imposing my views (pro-vaccine) on them.  My daughter has attended school with many unvaccinated children (personal/religious, etc. objections). As long as my daughter has her vaccinations, we live a normal, happy life.  I realize I may be sitting next to someone on a plane who is HIV positive, has mono, tuberculosis, etc. That's a risk of living on a planet with billions of people. I've done what I feel is medically prudent for myself and my family. Every family is entitled to that without recrimination.   

Yes ChutChut I agree with your addition too.  We can only truly be responsible for ourselves and our own families.  Our risk of COVID and in particular severe, life threatening COVID is greatly reduced and that gives me great peace of mind after my vaccination decision.  There are vaccine-hesitant people who are that way for their own personal reasons and they might have to deal with some consequences (but not recrimination) of choosing not to get vaccinated when the vaccine is available- such as not cruising for a period of time.  Their choice.    The really difficult choice will be to vaccinate kids (or not).  That is a very tough choice for parents.  A recent survey indicates that only 25% of parents plan to get their kids vaccinated. See link below.  Maybe that will change.  It somewhat depends on what public schools will require.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/950697?src=wnl_edit_tpal&uac=370300SV&impID=3359723&faf=1#vp_1

[TeeRick]

5 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

Yes, FDR is threatening to pull NCL out of Florida should the ridiculous Florida law be allowed to take precedence over common sense. What's less clear is how he thinks NCL will regroup for the winter season with no Florida ports. Stay tuned!

Political posturing on both sides I think.

[Fouremco]

9 minutes ago, TeeRick said:

Political posturing on both sides I think.

Gee, golly, ya think? 😇

 

I'm waiting to see who will blink first!