To pay or not to pay...

[Selbourne]

7 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I tend to agree with Moley on this, there will need to be new social distancing measures in order for cruising to operate safely, but in general movement around the ship is rarely crowded.  There will need to be changes in the way venues empty, possibly leaving by row, rather than the current free for all.  Similarly busy periods for lifts will need to be managed, but we wheelchair users have been saying this for years.

I never think anything is insurmountable, although maybe keeping Huddersfield Town in the Championship is going to prove me wrong.

I have no doubt that, eventually, a way will be found to make cruising as safe as it can be. They have no choice but to do that if the industry is to survive. My issue was the statement that cruising is no more risky than going to a restaurant (said in the present tense) which is patently untrue for the multitude of reasons that I mentioned. As an aside John, as a fellow wheelchair ‘pilot’, how do you feel that the proposed measures will affect us? I would be concerned about suggestions such as one way corridors if they result in longer distances when servicing trolleys are out in force. I guess that lifts might be easier to come by as those who use them just to move a few decks may be more inclined to use the stairs?

[DamianG]

21 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

I tend to agree with Moley on this, there will need to be new social distancing measures in order for cruising to operate safely, but in general movement around the ship is rarely crowded.  There will need to be changes in the way venues empty, possibly leaving by row, rather than the current free for all.  Similarly busy periods for lifts will need to be managed, but we wheelchair users have been saying this for years.

I never think anything is insurmountable, although maybe keeping Huddersfield Town in the Championship is going to prove me wrong.

 

The trouble is getting the passengers to comply. Customers in my local M&S yesterday were blatantly ignoring the one way system and one old bloke leaned into and over me to grab some roast beef rather than waiting a few seconds while I moved on.

I'd like to think that all the regulars who post on here would read and understand the guidelines then follow them accordingly but as ever there'll be some who don't care. We've all seen poor lift etiquette onboard as an example, and I've read various comments online over the last few days about Brits on holiday in Spain refusing to wear face masks in public places.

[terrierjohn]

33 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

That’s interesting and lessons will of course have been learned.  I don’t dispute the huge efforts being made to lessen the risks, but sadly the inherent design of cruise ships and nature of cruising as a mass transit / mass congregational type of activity conspire to create risks that are unique, hence the fact that cruising remains suspended and will almost certainly be the last activity to return to anything remotely approaching normal. I take no pleasure in saying this BTW, but it’s just an inevitability.

I still think your's is a very blinkered view Selbourne, the layout and design of a modern cruise ship is very similar go that of a large AI hotel. Hotel swimming pools will suffer the same social distancing problems as a cruise ship, most hotels we ever went to had very crowded pool areas. Even worse will the hotel restaurants, most of which are normally self service, so that is a far bigger problem for them than for cruise ships, which already have at least 50% of their restaurants with waiter service.

Similarly lifts in hotels will be no less of an issue than on a cruise ship.

Like Moley I think the changed FCO advice was mainly to highlight that the new flight corridor arrangements do not include cruise ships, rather than a major change in govt policy.

[terrierjohn]

16 minutes ago, DamianG said:

 

The trouble is getting the passengers to comply. Customers in my local M&S yesterday were blatantly ignoring the one way system and one old bloke leaned into and over me to grab some roast beef rather than waiting a few seconds while I moved on.

I'd like to think that all the regulars who post on here would read and understand the guidelines then follow them accordingly but as ever there'll be some who don't care. We've all seen poor lift etiquette onboard as an example, and I've read various comments online over the last few days about Brits on holiday in Spain refusing to wear face masks in public places.

Enforcement of the new rules will need to be included in the new staff protocols, and all staff will presumably be told to be more proactive in supervising passengers in future, otherwise safety will be compromised.

That won't please some but should be acceptable to the vast majority.

[DamianG]

1 minute ago, terrierjohn said:

Enforcement of the new rules will need to be included in the new staff protocols, and all staff will presumably be told to be more proactive in supervising passengers in future, otherwise safety will be compromised.

That won't please some but should be acceptable to the vast majority.

 

Agreed. In fact, this made me think of the pool area sunbed towel reservation problems so maybe stricter enforced protocols would see that issue disappear as well or is that just wishful thinking?

[Adawn47]

1 hour ago, AndyMichelle said:

Come to think of it, why was the British public ever allowed to pick up food? 

Andy 

To put it in their mouths presumably 😂

Avril 

Sorry, couldn't help it Andy 😔

[terrierjohn]

3 minutes ago, DamianG said:

 

Agreed. In fact, this made me think of the pool area sunbed towel reservation problems so maybe stricter enforced protocols would see that issue disappear as well or is that just wishful thinking?

There you go Damian, that's a positive and will be a big benefit in the new cruising system.

[AndyMichelle]

2 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

There you go Damian, that's a positive and will be a big benefit in the new cruising system.

It's a gradual, risk managing process. 

Swimming pools and spas can open shortly, we will all get our turn. 

A combination of new protocols and less fear will see cruising return and the Aida ones in August will be the Guinea pig. 

One step at a time please people. 

Andy 

[Son of Anarchy]

interesting reading peoples' views regarding culling inside cabins and the various scenarios to achieve this.

 

Our November cruise is a balcony.  We will struggle to spend the OBC as it is, but if there's a Dixons on board we are planning to get an iPad anyway.... And if there isn't a Dixons on board we will find a way to spend it!

December's B2B is an inside.  We are travelling with friends and have a number of cabins together.  If our friends cancel, our intention is to use FCC to upgrade to a balcony, if still available anyway.  If PandO insist that we have upgrade to a balcony, then we will just have to wander about for balcony pre-dinner drinks.  Today's price difference between inside and balcony is £170, just over £24 per night.  We all booked at launch, and linked our bookings.  I would like to think that the cost of any requirement to upgrade will be the lower of the launch price or the day of upgrade, ideally below lower!

Our Worldie is a balcony cabin, with nice amount of OBC, but not enough to last the whole cruise!  So the idea of extra OBC would of course be welcome.

 

And if people are upgraded at no cost and no OBC for those who already booked balconies , we will greatfully accept the upgrade for November, and on our other cruises think well done for those got a free upgrade.

[Windsurfboy]

1 hour ago, Mysticalmother said:

Of course, if the FCO still say over 70s should not cruise....problem solved....! 

 

Given the evidence that it's not age itself that is the cause of high death rates in over 70s, but it us the high prevalence of pre-existing conditions in the over 70s that is the cause of the high death rate. Banning the fit over 70s would be seen as illegal age discrimination. 

 

If the FCO advised anyone with the pre-existing conditions they know put you at high risk not to cruise never mind age then that would not be age discrimination. 

[davecttr]

Thinking of social distancing onboard and dear Oceana, her main bar, the Yacht & Compass or the Rotten Compost 'was' about the same size as my social club. The club can fit 60 socially distanced customers in, how many customers per evening is that if they are restricted to 1 hour each, say from 6pm to midnight. Your cohort time is 11pm sir! . The problem is not the cabins etc it is the public venues. Looks like 50% capacity is all they can manage.

 

I have a cruise booked for January on Iona but will probably cancel that and wait to see what the new normal is for cruising, same for the 2 summer cruises next year.

[Bazrat]

Part of the problem is the press who have an agenda against cruising,who can forget the clown incident and the many many comments on here about falling standards on P&O, and the story which turned out to be a fabrication by the reporter Who as probably got promoted for the amount of airtime he got.

 

[molecrochip]

14 minutes ago, Bazrat said:

Part of the problem is the press who have an agenda against cruising,who can forget the clown incident and the many many comments on here about falling standards on P&O, and the story which turned out to be a fabrication by the reporter Who as probably got promoted for the amount of airtime he got.

 

The cruise loving press is typically the Times and Telegraph. Whereas most of the stories have come from the Mail / Express and the red tops.

[Bazrat]

1 hour ago, molecrochip said:

The cruise loving press is typically the Times and Telegraph. Whereas most of the stories have come from the Mail / Express and the red tops.

True they will run stories without any basis of fact but saying that my wife until she did her first cruise believed those stories.

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, molecrochip said:

The cruise loving press is typically the Times and Telegraph. Whereas most of the stories have come from the Mail / Express and the red tops.

Which is surprising as the Mail and Express must make quite a bit from their cruise advertising.

[mercury7289]

On 7/11/2020 at 10:41 AM, molecrochip said:

Yesterday Carnival confirmed that they incidence of Covid was no worse than the industry (and hotel) average. It was just largely limited to four ships and got really bad press. Work is being done to make sure that air conditioning is pulling in almost 100% fresh air and using improved filters. This is better than an average hotel/restaurant that recycle up to 20% air.

 

The situation on Diamond wasn't largely due to person to person infection, it was largely caused by poor quarantine once docked in Japan. They did not isolate infected individuals. They didn't create separate teams serving infected cabins/unaffected cabins. This was all under direction of the Japanese authorities.

 

Ironically, if you look at the David Abel videos, he had cruise cough due to the lack of humidity in the cabin. But he didnt have Covid. To cure cruise cough he placed a wet towel in front of the air con. This appears to have taken tiny Covid droplets and attached them to larger water droplets. It then made it easier to catch/inhale. He then got Covid. That said, the risk of Covid being transferred via room service was still higher than the air conditioning.

 

Compare to the Grand Princess. 24 people got Covid. They were isolated. It was not spread. Correctly, the cruise was abandoned and every was quarantined as required at that stage of the pandemic.

 

A lot has been learnt but the cruise industry remains the media punch bag. 

Fair enough,although it does seem to confirm that it was transmitted though the air conditioning.

[molecrochip]

As I said, the risk of Covid being transferred via room service was still higher than the air conditioning. That appears to be true. Look at Grand Princess, the incidence was contained so much better despite being on the same class of ship.

[mercury7289]

1 minute ago, molecrochip said:

As I said, the risk of Covid being transferred via room service was still higher than the air conditioning. That appears to be true. Look at Grand Princess, the incidence was contained so much better despite being on the same class of ship.

Overall you may be right, however your report/post appears to put the cause in this instance on a wet towel and the air conditioning.

 

[d9704011]

43 minutes ago, mercury7289 said:

Fair enough,although it does seem to confirm that it was transmitted though the air conditioning.

No it doesn’t.  molecrochip made up the ‘cause’ of how somebody contracted the disease to fit his own air conditioning narrative.

[molecrochip]

We can’t be sure what caused the specific case for the Abel’s but one thing is for sure, the action taken regarding ‘cruise cough’ could well have increased the risk of catching the virus, over and above the standard risk of the air conditioning system on board the ship.

 

If it was the air con system spreading it then you would have expected to see whole chunks of cabins next to each other all infected but from the reports released the cases were all spread across the ship.

[AnnieC]

1 minute ago, molecrochip said:

We can’t be sure what caused the specific case for the Abel’s but one thing is for sure, the action taken regarding ‘cruise cough’ could well have increased the risk of catching the virus, over and above the standard risk of the air conditioning system on board the ship.

 

If it was the air con system spreading it then you would have expected to see whole chunks of cabins next to each other all infected but from the reports released the cases were all spread across the ship.

As I've already posted, David Abel had a cough for around a week before being tested, and self-diagnosed this as being caused by the dry atmosphere. Many at the time thought he was wrong and had covid - looks like they were correct - by the time he was hospitalised he (and his wife) had pneumonia. Covid does not normally cause pneumonia until some time after the initial infection. The towel is innocent.😃

[mercury7289]

22 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

We can’t be sure what caused the specific case for the Abel’s but one thing is for sure, the action taken regarding ‘cruise cough’ could well have increased the risk of catching the virus, over and above the standard risk of the air conditioning system on board the ship.

 

If it was the air con system spreading it then you would have expected to see whole chunks of cabins next to each other all infected but from the reports released the cases were all spread across the ship.

Equally could well have held off, the on set of the virus, by acting as some sort of filter?

 

Interested in what, is considered the standard risk of cruise ship air conditioning, and if known by P&O, do they not have a duty of care to inform there guests of the risks?

 

 

 

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, mercury7289 said:

Overall you may be right, however your report/post appears to put the cause in this instance on a wet towel and the air conditioning.

 

Well if some people will culture their own Covid petri dish towels, what do you expect?

[molecrochip]

52 minutes ago, mercury7289 said:

Equally could well have held off, the on set of the virus, by acting as some sort of filter?

 

Interested in what, is considered the standard risk of cruise ship air conditioning, and if known by P&O, do they not have a duty of care to inform there guests of the risks?

 

 

 

MY understanding is that MODERN cruise ship air con is on par with hotel air con. Most air con systems work by recycling a certain amount of internal air and mixing it with fresh air. That amount of fresh air can usually be boosted right up to 100%. That is not as efficient as you have to cool/heat rather than recycling existing cooled/heated sir.

 

Best comparison is on cars, you gave the option to recircle air internally or bring fresh air in. Even if brining in fresh air, it’s not usually 100% fresh.

 

Some may say cruise ship air con is better than hotel air con as you’re picking up fresh air from out at sea rather than In the middle of a polluted city.

 

What does make a difference is the type of filters in the air con, filtering out bad particles. You’ll note that NCL (or MSC) is upgrading the quality of the filters across the fleet. Probably most cruise lines are doing this.

Edited July 12, 2020 by molecrochip

[molecrochip]

The biggest transmission risks remain, buffet utensils, lift buttons, door handles and handrails.