It looks like it will have to be a vaccine or a cure to restart cruising as herd immunity is not possible

[cbr663]

Keep in mind that many of these same people who refuse to restrict their behaviour, physically distance or believe that the virus is all a hoax will book a cruise.  We are all seeing more and more examples of outlandish personal behaviour and the cruise lines will not be exempt from these same sort of incidents.  Cruise lines will need to be ready to deal with this type of behaviour on their ships.  And yes, when it occurs, it will be uploaded to the internet.

[ontheweb]

21 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

You would think this is self-evident, yet there are some in Florida, Texas and elsewhere who insist upon their constitutional rights to not wear masks or practice social distancing.   There are those who cannot grasp the notion of doing something the least bit inconvenient if they do not see a direct benefit to themselves.  

It's not just in those states.  We have it somewhat under control here in NY state, but I really expect a spike in my area. The primary group that comes up here in the summer do not wear masks except when forced to in stores. And then I have seen them shop with the mask not covering their noses and by the time they are in checkout the mask only covers their chins. There is also no social distancing in this group. They were also the primary reason for a measles outbreak in some NY counties as they did not feel the need to have their children vaccinated.

[clo]

20 minutes ago, cbr663 said:

many of these same people

I call them "LCD." Lowest common denominator. And, you bet, they'll cruise. And make a bloody mess of an already bad situation. I honestly can't imagine what it would take to restart cruises.

[George C]

There are lots of idiots out there a 30 year man in Dallas area attended a COVID-19 party thinking the disease is not real and then died from it. State governor just recently made mask wearing mandatory in stores and has now closed down bars a few weeks after restarting them. I will not fly or cruise until things get back to near normal. 

[lenquixote66]

2 hours ago, ontheweb said:

It's not just in those states.  We have it somewhat under control here in NY state, but I really expect a spike in my area. The primary group that comes up here in the summer do not wear masks except when forced to in stores. And then I have seen them shop with the mask not covering their noses and by the time they are in checkout the mask only covers their chins. There is also no social distancing in this group. They were also the primary reason for a measles outbreak in some NY counties as they did not feel the need to have their children vaccinated.

Our Governor said there has been increased cases in Rensselaer,NY

[cbr663]

4 hours ago, clo said:

I call them "LCD." Lowest common denominator. And, you bet, they'll cruise. And make a bloody mess of an already bad situation. I honestly can't imagine what it would take to restart cruises.

 

People thought that people not adhering to the dining room dress code or chair hoggers were a problem - imagine the challenge of dealing with those who refuse to adhere to the new rules.

[navybankerteacher]

6 minutes ago, cbr663 said:

 

People thought that people not adhering to the dining room dress code or chair hoggers were a problem - imagine the challenge of dealing with those who refuse to adhere to the new rules.

Exactly — chair hogs are simply annoying, and people who insist on wearing what they want rather than what is requested dampen the mood - but for the most part can be simply ignored.  Self-absorbed, ignorant louts (and we know there are millions of them from what is happening across the South) who feel health precautions do not apply to them are more than unattractive — they are dangerous.  Just as I now avoid crowds on shore who fail to observe requested precautions, I am not inclined to want to expose myself to them on a cruise.

 

The marginal protocols now being discussed will not be effective given the fact that the cruising public is the way it is.

 

I’m out, for the time being.

[SelectSys]

On 7/12/2020 at 11:22 AM, pc_load_letter said:

 

...

 

So California is pretty much shut down now, the infection rate is not going to go down because testing is through the roof. Which is a good thing. But even when you reopen, you will see another surge. Just like we see a surge of flu during the winter. It's the nature of things. And masks are feel good techniques that do nothing. Washing your hands are what works.

 

 

...

 

If you are an older person, sure, feel free to stay home. I don't really care what you do

 

CA may be shutdown in terms of restrictions, but not in terms of the action of its residents.  Beaches are swamped for summer as normal.  I live in a smaller coastal community and it's just like normal, especially with the young.  Dining and bars are now serving alfresco sometimes taking up street space and public parking with the approval of cities.

 

In terms of your apparent compassion regarding older individuals.

 

4 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

You would think this is self-evident, yet there are some in Florida, Texas and elsewhere who insist upon their constitutional rights to not wear masks or practice social distancing.   There are those who cannot grasp the notion of doing something the least bit inconvenient if they do not see a direct benefit to themselves.  

 

In CA it's more the young.  Same in Florida where the average age of new infection is 21.  

https://www.wftv.com/news/florida/gov-desantis-gives-update-covid-19-villages/HS3355DB5RG6DKAOWT5YA4EWIM/

 

I doubt these young people really know their rights as civic has been largely dropped from the education curriculum  nor do they seem to care based on whatever they learned or didn't learn at home.

[navybankerteacher]

10 minutes ago, SelectSys said:

 

...

 

I doubt these young people really know their rights as civic has been largely dropped from the education curriculum  nor do they seem to care based on whatever they learned or didn't learn at home.

Well a lot of them talk about their rights — what they seem not to have learned is the hard fact that one person’s rights depends upon other people having the obligation to respect those rights —— and you rarely hear anyone saying “I know my obligations” (much less ever see them acting as though they do).

[dogs4fun]

5 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

You would think this is self-evident, yet there are some in Florida, Texas and elsewhere who insist upon their constitutional rights to not wear masks or practice social distancing.  

I assumed that resistance to wearing masks was a relatively new phenomenon. Just read this article & it appears that opposition to prudent precautions has been around for awhile. 

https://theconversation.com/mask-resistance-during-a-pandemic-isnt-new-in-1918-many-americans-were-slackers-141687

Edited July 13, 2020 by dogs4fun

[clo]

40 minutes ago, cbr663 said:

 

People thought that people not adhering to the dining room dress code or chair hoggers were a problem - imagine the challenge of dealing with those who refuse to adhere to the new rules.

Yeah, if staff can't/won't enforce those then forget the new ones.

[clo]

3 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

Well a lot of them talk about their rights — what they seem not to have learned is the hard fact that one person’s rights depends upon other people having the obligation to respect those rights —— and you rarely hear anyone saying “I know my obligations” (much less ever see them acting as though they do).

I don't believe that anyone really doesn't know. They're just using it as an excuse.

[SelectSys]

1 hour ago, navybankerteacher said:

Well a lot of them talk about their rights — what they seem not to have learned is the hard fact that one person’s rights depends upon other people having the obligation to respect those rights —— and you rarely hear anyone saying “I know my obligations” (much less ever see them acting as though they do).

 

Absolutely!  I started this lesson at home with my kids early letting them know they had certain responsibilities as well benefits from being part of the family. 

 

Everyone talks a whole lot about what they want these days and hardly anyone about their obligations.  I doubt even the notion of "ask not what your country can do for you, but rather ask what you can do for your country" ever enters anyone's minds these days.  You can substitute almost any word you like for country - family, community, school - and the answer largely stays the same.

 

The whole notion of obligations, responsibilities and service to others seems to be missing these days from popular thought and culture.  A quaint notion from the past subject to cancellation.

[pc_load_letter]

New England Journal of Medicine says masks do nothing to protect us....

 

We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal.

 

Focusing on universal masking alone may, paradoxically, lead to more transmission of Covid-19 if it diverts attention from implementing more fundamental infection-control measures.

 

http://archive.is/DatC5

Edited July 13, 2020 by pc_load_letter

[clo]

3 minutes ago, pc_load_letter said:

New England Journal of Medicine says masks do nothing to protect us....

 

We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal.

 

http://archive.is/DatC5

 

Editor’s Note: This article was published on April 1, 2020, at NEJM.org.

A lifetime ago in COVID- years.

[cbr663]

3 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Exactly — chair hogs are simply annoying, and people who insist on wearing what they want rather than what is requested dampen the mood - but for the most part can be simply ignored.  Self-absorbed, ignorant louts (and we know there are millions of them from what is happening across the South) who feel health precautions do not apply to them are more than unattractive — they are dangerous.  Just as I now avoid crowds on shore who fail to observe requested precautions, I am not inclined to want to expose myself to them on a cruise.

 

The marginal protocols now being discussed will not be effective given the fact that the cruising public is the way it is.

 

I’m out, for the time being.

 

I agree.  It is relatively easy to avoid covididiots on shore.  If I go to a grocery store and notice people not physically distancing I can easily leave.  Same with any big box store.  And at times we have.  But on a cruise ship that has left port what options do you have other than to sequester yourself to your own cabin. 

 

No thanks.  Like you, we are also out for the time being.

[clo]

WHO is starting to think that antibodies may wane after a few months. I believe I mentioned here that Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson are having that happen.

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/13/who-officials-say-coronavirus-antibodies-may-wane-after-several-months.html

[DaveSJ711]

18 minutes ago, pc_load_letter said:

New England Journal of Medicine says masks do nothing to protect us....

 

We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal.

 

Focusing on universal masking alone may, paradoxically, lead to more transmission of Covid-19 if it diverts attention from implementing more fundamental infection-control measures.

 

http://archive.is/DatC5

 

On June 3, 2020, the authors of the NEJM article wrote a clarifying letter to the Journal.  They noted that the "intent of [the] article was to push for more masking, not less."  They continued:  "We therefore strongly support the calls of public health agencies for all people to wear masks when circumstances compel them to be within 6 ft of others for sustained periods."

 

 

 

[slidergirl]

7 hours ago, George C said:

There are lots of idiots out there a 30 year man in Dallas area attended a COVID-19 party thinking the disease is not real and then died from it. State governor just recently made mask wearing mandatory in stores and has now closed down bars a few weeks after restarting them. I will not fly or cruise until things get back to near normal. 

My heart goes out to the people caught in places where adherence to a certain philosophy or way of life has them only being able to hope on the goodwill of people to wear a mask.   My heart broke today when I heard that the obituary section of the Houston Chronicle was 40-some pages large.   There have been plenty of anecdotal mentions in the news of people dying of COVID-19 after pontificating about abuse of their rights or taking part in one of those "liberate" protests or crowding shoulder-to-shoulder the first day a bar opened or attending a beach or lake party or went to  birthday party.  Sad. 

 

Trying to compare any other "disease" with COVID-19 won't work.  Others have vaccines and/or effective treatments.  We've got nothing for COVID-19 but a couple of "maybe they'll help some" therapeutics that you only get once you are very ill.  Not the same thing.  

[slidergirl]

33 minutes ago, pc_load_letter said:

New England Journal of Medicine says masks do nothing to protect us....

 

We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal.

 

Focusing on universal masking alone may, paradoxically, lead to more transmission of Covid-19 if it diverts attention from implementing more fundamental infection-control measures.

 

http://archive.is/DatC5

As others have said, this article is out of date and the authors have already updated to say #WeartheDamnMask.   With a new virus, things are going to change frequently.  Things that were said last month may have been updated since then.   I have found in many groups I am in which discuss COVID-19, the more someone is against masks or distancing or thinks it's a harmless disease, the more use of out of date information will be sited to try to bolster their opinion.  

[ATC cruiser]

15 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

As others have said, this article is out of date and the authors have already updated to say #WeartheDamnMask.   With a new virus, things are going to change frequently.  Things that were said last month may have been updated since then.   I have found in many groups I am in which discuss COVID-19, the more someone is against masks or distancing or thinks it's a harmless disease, the more use of out of date information will be sited to try to bolster their opinion.  

Or that they just flat refuse to believe scientists. I’m surprised any of these people cruise because isn’t the earth flat?😎

[clo]

19 minutes ago, slidergirl said:

Trying to compare any other "disease" with COVID-19 won't work.  Others have vaccines and/or effective treatments.  We've got nothing for COVID-19 but a couple of "maybe they'll help some" therapeutics that you only get once you are very ill.  Not the same thing.  

Thanks so much, gf, for all your post. Especially this. I have a fear that this could be where we wind up. I quoted something once and I was properly corrected but it was "a pandemic is over when everyone is either dead or immune." I'm 73 and will not be surprised if this is part of my life for the rest of my life. But we have our little motor home and our little dog so still plenty to enjoy.

 

[Shmoo here]

1 hour ago, pc_load_letter said:

New England Journal of Medicine says masks do nothing to protect us....

 

We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection.

No one says wearing a mask protects the wearer.  It's to help prevent the wearer from infecting others.

 

 

[clo]

48 minutes ago, Shmoo here said:

No one says wearing a mask protects the wearer.  It's to help prevent the wearer from infecting others.

 

 

That was the early warning. Now it's that the more masks the better the protection. 

 

[clo]

COVID19 is just one, probably small, part of the picture. Here's what we have to look forward to if big changes aren't made.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/environment/stop-the-wildlife-trade-coronavirus-disease-climate-crisis-a9600991.html?fbclid=IwAR1MZhFhAwfl1sdHA_uboiteFyNu5fH8zCf0kSRDQmKJvMvK9KdgZ2VEBZs