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CMV cease trading

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1 hour ago, Roger88 said:

That is the thing, this is why its always better to book directly avoiding all those third party offices who may not even exist or cease to exist after you make a purchase via them. Be carefull 

Where's Wowzz?😂

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1 hour ago, molecrochip said:

Most of the ships are not owned by them, so the valuable asset is the customer database. If done correctly, this can still be acquired in an Administration, even in these GDPR days. I don't actually think that Carnival will acquire CMV lock stock and barrel but if they are a significant creditor as has been suggested elsewhere, they may be in the box seat for picking over the embers.

I guess it depends whether Carnival think there is any profit to make from a budget brand of smaller ships in the UK. If they did, they could buy the name and equip it with the two ships already due to transfer next year - and who knows, maybe Aurora and Arcadia if they really want to continue taking P&O down the family, pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap route. Doubtful given Arnold Donald's recent comments but you never know in these strange times.

I must admit that I do question how many CMV regulars would transfer to P&O, with their mostly much larger ships and a single departure port in Southampton.

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1 hour ago, Roger88 said:

That is the thing, this is why its always better to book directly avoiding all those third party offices who may not even exist or cease to exist after you make a purchase via them. Be carefull 

 

In this instance you have made a very sensible comment, I am amazed.  I am sure a lot of people are thinking that at present.

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1 hour ago, molecrochip said:

Most of the ships are not owned by them, so the valuable asset is the customer database. If done correctly, this can still be acquired in an Administration, even in these GDPR days. I don't actually think that Carnival will acquire CMV lock stock and barrel but if they are a significant creditor as has been suggested elsewhere, they may be in the box seat for picking over the embers.


That’s fascinating, as it was the selling of customer databases that were major contributory factors in the multi million pound fines that some household name organisations incurred a few years ago and one of the prime motivations behind the creation of GDPR legislation.
 

During my last year at work I ploughed through countless legal briefings and legislative documents on GDPR (if anyone suffers from insomnia I can recommend them) and we specifically added in to our statements that we would never sell our databases to third parties. My understanding was that an organisation needs to specifically gain active ‘consent’ from each person on the database should they wish to do so and failure to gain that consent would constitute a breach. Those customers who don’t provide consent have to be removed from the database, should an organisation wish to use data in such ways. I still find it interesting how many organisations (including some very big ones) still haven’t fully grasped all the intricacies of GDPR, but am not entirely surprised as it is very complex. It took me a good year to fully get my head around it and already, just a year after retiring, it would appear that the law may have changed again!

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7 minutes ago, tring said:

 

In this instance you have made a very sensible comment, I am amazed.  I am sure a lot of people are thinking that at present.


I sort of thought the same and almost said so, but then thought that, even though I book direct, those who booked via TA’s or cruise specialists would surely still be able to get their money back via credit card provider or ABTA, so I changed my mind!

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6 minutes ago, Selbourne said:


That’s fascinating, as it was the selling of customer databases that were major contributory factors in the multi million pound fines that some household name organisations incurred a few years ago and one of the prime motivations behind the creation of GDPR legislation.
 

During my last year at work I ploughed through countless legal briefings and legislative documents on GDPR (if anyone suffers from insomnia I can recommend them) and we specifically added in to our statements that we would never sell our databases to third parties. My understanding was that an organisation needs to specifically gain active ‘consent’ from each person on the database should they wish to do so and failure to gain that consent would constitute a breach. Those customers who don’t provide consent have to be removed from the database, should an organisation wish to use data in such ways. I still find it interesting how many organisations (including some very big ones) still haven’t fully grasped all the intricacies of GDPR, but am not entirely surprised as it is very complex. It took me a good year to fully get my head around it and already, just a year after retiring, it would appear that the law may have changed again!

You’re correct in your commentary if a company sells the data. But if the administrator sells the company containing the data, then the only obligation is to notify.

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2 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

You’re correct in your commentary if a company sells the data. But if the administrator sells the company containing the data, then the only obligation is to notify.


I think I see what you mean, in that if someone buys the whole company then the database would move with it and that would be perfectly legal, but I thought you said that the only thing that P&O would be interested in would be the database? If that (alone) was sold to P&O (or anyone, for that matter) then wouldn’t the administrators be in breach and therefore liable to prosecution? If I recall correctly, one major administration organisation (PWC?) got a lot of adverse PR for not following the correct rules a year or so ago and I would think that they will all be paranoid about dotting the ‘i’s and crossing the ‘t’s.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, molecrochip said:

Most of the ships are not owned by them, so the valuable asset is the customer database. If done correctly, this can still be acquired in an Administration, even in these GDPR days. I don't actually think that Carnival will acquire CMV lock stock and barrel but if they are a significant creditor as has been suggested elsewhere, they may be in the box seat for picking over the embers.

 

Quite, as I had mentioned in my previous comment.

 

If the ships have been transferred to CMV on a 10 year deal, then it would involve a lot more owed to Carnival than just Vasco da Gama, as I understand a  number of CMV ships are ex Carnival, e.g. Magellan which is an ex CCL ship.  So Carnival could be a major creditor.  Any ship is worth buying at a price, if only something that is a bit below the scrap cost along with the costs to to send it to scrap........    Sorry, re cycle, as Carnival do not "do" scrap.

 

I can see the data base may be of interest to Fred, especially for any non UK nationals who would not necessarily know Fred exists, though CMV customers will be well aware of Fred and I would suggest would be the most likely company to pick up  most of the CMV custom with their better itineraries, smaller ships and regional departures.  The larger P&O "mid size", sailing from Southampton on mundane itineraries just would not do it for most customers, unless P&O do keep the mid sized ships and re think those itineraries.  Yes P&O prices have been lower, but that is not particularly the case on their mid sized ships sailing the less common itineraries, as we all know.  Sadly I see all small ships will be more expensive to sail on after this and indeed prices will need to be higher to ensure a company can keep trading.  Over that last few years we have lost All Leisure (Swan, VOD and Hebridean) along with Voyages of Antiquity (not sure if that just ceased or went down) and now CMV.  Carnival are keeping going on their OBS and economies of scale, so cannot compare prices of those with smaller ships and clientelle who do not want on board attractions like fancy restaurants etc.  I have been wondering about the stability of Saga as they had two new ships built before this, but their cruise prices do not seem to reflect the luxury lines which appear to me to be the most similar ships in comparison - I do not have much knowledge of Saga though.

 

The main appeal of the data base for Fred may well be to keep it out of Carnival's hands methinks, but do agree there could be a big fight for it.

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9 minutes ago, Selbourne said:


I think I see what you mean, in that if someone buys the whole company then the database would move with it and that would be perfectly legal, but I thought you said that the only thing that P&O would be interested in would be the database? If that (alone) was sold to P&O (or anyone, for that matter) then wouldn’t the administrators be in breach and therefore liable to prosecution? If I recall correctly, one major administration organisation (PWC?) got a lot of adverse PR for not following the correct rules a year or so ago and I would think that they will all be paranoid about dotting the ‘i’s and crossing the ‘t’s.

 

 

 

I suppose what I'm saying is that if Carnival want the database that badly, then they may need to buy the company out of admin. The obvious question here is what else is in the company or indeed, whether a CVA would be acceptable to all parties. 

 

Andrew - if they bought CMV they wouldn't have to operate solely out of Southampton.

 

What we don't know, as they haven't filed their 2019 accounts, is how bad a position they were in.

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24 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

You’re correct in your commentary if a company sells the data. But if the administrator sells the company containing the data, then the only obligation is to notify.

 

Interesting.  When the Swan data base and trade name was sold to Lord Sterling we were asked if we were happy for our names to remain on it.  When the same was sold on after the demise of All Leisure, we heard nothing.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

...Andrew - if they bought CMV they wouldn't have to operate solely out of Southampton....

Absolutely. What I was trying to say was that should CMV totally disappear, I'm really not sure how many of their current pax would transfer to P&O as it is now. In the - probably unlikely - event that Carnival bought it to continue operating it's current market, then regional departures would very much remain as part of its appeal.

Edited by Britboys
Addition

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

I suppose what I'm saying is that if Carnival want the database that badly, then they may need to buy the company out of admin. The obvious question here is what else is in the company or indeed, whether a CVA would be acceptable to all parties. 

 

Andrew - if they bought CMV they wouldn't have to operate solely out of Southampton.

 

What we don't know, as they haven't filed their 2019 accounts, is how bad a position they were in.

 

Would also keep it out of Fred's hands methinks.  Also I assume they could buy the whole company and then sell on the assets they do not want - they have got quite good at selling in recent weeks 🙂

 

Now another company sailing from Liverpool or even Newcastle or Scotland would be very welcome indeed as CMV had a big input there.  Interesting indeed.

Edited by tring

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33 minutes ago, Selbourne said:


I sort of thought the same and almost said so, but then thought that, even though I book direct, those who booked via TA’s or cruise specialists would surely still be able to get their money back via credit card provider or ABTA, so I changed my mind!

 

More hoops to jump through is not what people really want to know about this year.  We know from the collapse of All Leisure that a lot of paperwork has to be dealt with.

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30 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

I suppose what I'm saying is that if Carnival want the database that badly, then they may need to buy the company out of admin.

Trouble with Carnival buying the database, they'd probably lose it or crash it. 😉

 

 

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12 minutes ago, AnnieC said:

Trouble with Carnival buying the database, they'd probably lose it or crash it. 😉

 

 

Just pray for the CMV customers that the administrators don't appoint Carnival as an intermediary/contact point for customers seeking refunds from the business... 😱

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59 minutes ago, No pager thank you said:

Just pray for the CMV customers that the administrators don't appoint Carnival as an intermediary/contact point for customers seeking refunds from the business... 😱

 

The cruises have all been cancelled.  We and presumably everyone else, got emails late last night from the ABTA claims team with links to instructions of how to claim back the cash in various circumstances.  First call in our case (UK departure cruise), according to the instructions is a credit or debit card company (if card used) or ABTA.  People who cannot reclaim the cash that way are advised to apply to the administrators as creditors.

 

So presumably much of that debt has been removed from the company, but I assume ABTA (or their insurers) and the banks will be creditors of CMV and so perhaps get a partial payout when all is finalised.  CMV were giving out voucher for future cruises rather than refund credit notes as described by ABTA (their website gives requirements for refund credits), so likely the vouchers will not be recoverable as will be worthless now - CMV were even calling them vouchers, not refund credits.

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There is a post on the CMV  boards by a poster to say the "CMV USA" website is not showing they are in admin this morning and the person who posted was able to go onto their booking system and select a cabin etc.

 

I wonder why........

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1 hour ago, tring said:

 

The cruises have all been cancelled.  We and presumably everyone else, got emails late last night from the ABTA claims team with links to instructions of how to claim back the cash in various circumstances.  First call in our case (UK departure cruise), according to the instructions is a credit or debit card company (if card used) or ABTA.  People who cannot reclaim the cash that way are advised to apply to the administrators as creditors.

 

<snip>

Not all of us have got emails - we are in the hole for a deposit (booked direct with CMV about a month ago) but we have not heard anything officially from either CMV, administrators or ABTA. We are already getting our ducks in a row for the S75 claim.

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Fred Olsen sits between p&o and Cunard so I doubt cmv customers would go to Fred more likely marella p&o.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Bazrat said:

Fred Olsen sits between p&o and Cunard so I doubt cmv customers would go to Fred more likely marella p&o.

There may not be a 'natural home' for CMV cruisers. Fred Olsen is significantly more expensive but does have regional ports in the UK to choose from. Marella is possibly nearest in terms of quality but the general atmosphere is very different and they largely operate only fly-cruises. P&O only operate from Southampton and are slowly phasing out smaller ships...

Those of us that prefer smaller ships and a more traditional style of cruising are losing our options I am afraid - at middle to budget prices anyway!

Edited by Britboys
Addition

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4 hours ago, tring said:

 

In this instance you have made a very sensible comment, I am amazed.  I am sure a lot of people are thinking that at present.

I have never found the extra link a TA creates to be a problem, far from it on a couple of occasions I have taken advantage of a price reduction, even when I have had to lose the deposit on a booking, and despite losing some commission my TA has done all the work to secure the price reduction, and keep the same accessible cabin, leaving me with nothing but a price saving. Knowing how generally poorly informed the P&O agents are, I would hesitate to try and achieve the same savings if I had booked direct.

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We went on a CMV ship once,  the Astor was sailing from Capetown to UK at beginning of April,  perfect time. Only 3 rooms with balconies,  the 3 suites at the front they'd added on. The Astor suite was fabulous twice the size of a p&O suite, with a huge deck and pretty good condition.   No other perks at all. Had a good cruise the ship was full of Australian grandparents coming back to see their families,  really  friendly. The entertainment was good, , basically their own, all from the same eastern European music academy. 

 

But the ship in general was no where near P&O standards, definitely in need of TCL, food average at best. Except for 3 new suites all other cabins smaller than P&O. If  Astor is typical then CMV ships are well below P&O standard, and expect below Fred's. Even though ships would be cheap would cost alot to get up to standard. So doubt carnival would contemplate them. Doubtful if much overlap with passenger profile, none if P&O has to reduce numbers and not sell smallest cabins.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Roger88 said:

That is the thing, this is why its always better to book directly avoiding all those third party offices who may not even exist or cease to exist after you make a purchase via them. Be carefull 

I'm gobsmacked  - there is actually some validity in thus statement! 

However, I think if you paid by cc, your recourse will be the same if you paid direct via a TA or direct. 

What I am unsure about is the position of anyone unfortunate enough to have laid by bank transfer - do they just join the list of those waiting payment?

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Just a thought about "buying" the CMV data base - I'm not actually sure that getting a list of mainly elderly people, who buy "value for money" cruises (sorry to those CMV cruisers on here) is intrinsically that valuable. 

If I was in the Carnival marketing department,  I would be developing individual marketing campaigns targeting ex CMV cruisers through selected TAs. Why buy a database when you can use the data based owned by the TAs? 

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54 minutes ago, Britboys said:

There may not be a 'natural home' for CMV cruisers. Fred Olsen is significantly more expensive but does have regional ports in the UK to choose from. Marella is possibly nearest in terms of quality but the general atmosphere is very different and they largely operate only fly-cruises. P&O only operate from Southampton and are slowly phasing out smaller ships...

Those of us that prefer smaller ships and a more traditional style of cruising are losing our options I am afraid - at middle to budget prices anyway!

True what you say but as we’re new to cruising the size of the ship doesn’t really matter to us, we have done marella and really enjoyed the experience,Fred is far to expensive for us to consider.

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