CDC Requests Input on Resumption of cruises and the public can participate

[livingonthebeach]

11 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Again, this is a "talking point", not a plan.  This, in and of itself, is not sufficient to meet the CDC requirements.  It may be enough for the CDC to say, "okay, go ahead and promulgate plans, procedures, and protocols based on these recommendations, and we will review them to see how they meet these recommendations, and whether we feel they go far enough to meet our requirements".  Based on this document alone, there isn't a chance of cruising in November, IMHO, unless there are way more specific plans already on paper.  I still believe the main sticking point will be the CDC seeing actual contractual commitments from private health providers and places to provide quarantine, in the numbers that the CDC anticipates based on their modeling.  And, the modeling may take some time to analyze the procedures set forth to see what expected outcomes there could be.  

 

So bottom line is they will more than likely extend the no-sail order in order to review the submitted detailed plans?  Why don’t they just announce that now instead of keeping everyone in suspense for another week?  

 

IDK but lately I’ve lost faith in that agency after delving more into their series of snafus, the latest just yesterday.  

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/21/cdc-says-it-erroneously-posted-guidance-that-said-coronavirus-spreads-through-air-and-and-travel-beyond-six-feet.html

[Pratique]

49 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

So bottom line is they will more than likely extend the no-sail order in order to review the submitted detailed plans?  Why don’t they just announce that now instead of keeping everyone in suspense for another week?  

 

IDK but lately I’ve lost faith in that agency after delving more into their series of snafus, the latest just yesterday.  

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/21/cdc-says-it-erroneously-posted-guidance-that-said-coronavirus-spreads-through-air-and-and-travel-beyond-six-feet.html

I don' think the cruise industry is in suspense. It's just the rest of us waiting for something to happen.

[livingonthebeach]

23 minutes ago, Pratique said:

I don' think the cruise industry is in suspense. It's just the rest of us waiting for something to happen.

 

The cruise industry is totally in suspense of their bottom line.  We can do without cruising and still survive.  The cruise industry can not — their survival depends on cruising and North America is 75% of their market share.  

 

The port cities are also very much in suspense.  The ancillary businesses that cater to the cruise industry and are dependent upon them for survival are also very much in suspense.  The crew members are also anxiously awaiting word.  The travel agents / partners that book cruises are also in suspense.  

 

The cruise industry has burned through billions of dollars while kept in suspense.  There is a lot more at stake than just us here on CC being kept in suspense. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by livingonthebeach

[Pratique]

1 minute ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

The cruise industry is totally in suspense of their bottom line.  We can do without cruising and still survive.  The cruise industry can not — their survival depends on cruising and North America is 75% of their market share.  

 

The port cities are also very much in suspense.  The ancillary bisnesses that cater to the cruise industry and are dependent upon them for survival are also very much in suspense.  The crew members are also anxiously awaiting word.  The travel agents / partners that book cruises are also in suspense.  

 

The cruise industry has burned through billions of dollars while kept in suspense.  There is a lot more at stake than just us here on CC being kept in suspense. 

The cruise industry knows what it needs to do next. The no sail order is meaningless at this point. They know they have to get a plan approved. The ball is in their court right now.

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, Pratique said:

The cruise industry knows what it needs to do next. The no sail order is meaningless at this point. They know they have to get a plan approved. The ball is in their court right now.

 

Whatever the plan is, it can not be executed while there is still a no-sail order in effect.  

[Pratique]

Just now, livingonthebeach said:

 

Whatever the plan is, it can not be executed while there is still a no-sail order in effect.  

That's not correct. The order specifically states that one of the conditions for permitting operations to resume during the no sail order is approval of the plans. If the plans are approved then they can resume operations while the no sail order remains in effect.

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, Pratique said:

That's not correct. The order specifically states that one of the conditions for permitting operations to resume during the no sail order is approval of the plans. If the plans are approved then they can resume operations while the no sail order remains in effect.

 

They can let the no-sail order expire in eight days and not extend it or extend it for X number of days as well.  There are no scheduled sailings until November 1st but a lot has to happen between now and the 1st of November for the sailings to occur.  The point is the CDC knows approximately how much time is needed to approve plans so they should make the announcement sooner than later so people can get on with their lives (not just the lives of those on CC). 

[Pratique]

7 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

They can let the no-sail order expire in eight days and not extend it or extend it for X number of days as well.  There are no scheduled sailings until November 1st but a lot has to happen between now and the 1st of November for the sailings to occur.  The point is the CDC knows approximately how much time is needed to approve plans so they should make the announcement sooner than later so people can get on with their lives (not just the lives of those on CC). 

The order was previously set to expire on July 24. CDC extended it on July 21 (announced on July 16, effective July 21). That was 8 days notice.

 

In any event, I don't think it matters because everyone knows nothing can happen until the plans are approved. CDC is not simply going to drop the requirement for that. The extension of the order is a given, so it doesn't matter if they announce it today or three days before it expires.

 

I'm not sure what you think will happen differently if they delay the announcement. There are other milestones that have not been met.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Pratique

[livingonthebeach]

13 minutes ago, Pratique said:

That's not correct. The order specifically states that one of the conditions for permitting operations to resume during the no sail order is approval of the plans. If the plans are approved then they can resume operations while the no sail order remains in effect.

 

This is the exact verbiage from the CDC site.  

 

This Order is in effect until one of the following occurs:

• The expiration of the Secretary of Health and Human Services’ declaration that COVID-19 constitutes a public health emergency,
• The CDC Director rescinds or modifies the order based on specific public health or other considerations, or
• September 30, 2020.

[howiefrommd]

2 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

This is the exact verbiage from the CDC site.  

 

This Order is in effect until one of the following occurs:

• The expiration of the Secretary of Health and Human Services’ declaration that COVID-19 constitutes a public health emergency,
• The CDC Director rescinds or modifies the order based on specific public health or other considerations, or
• September 30, 2020.

The first bullet point says it all.  We are still under a public health emergency per HHS.

[Pratique]

4 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

This is the exact verbiage from the CDC site.  

 

This Order is in effect until one of the following occurs:

• The expiration of the Secretary of Health and Human Services’ declaration that COVID-19 constitutes a public health emergency,
• The CDC Director rescinds or modifies the order based on specific public health or other considerations, or
• September 30, 2020.

This only pertains to the order. Please see the order itself. https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships-Second-Extension_07_16_2020-p.pdf

 

Page 19: Cruise ship operators shall continue to suspend passenger operations and not embark passengers, except as approved by HHS/CDC personnel.

[livingonthebeach]

1 minute ago, Pratique said:

The order was previously set to expire on July 24. CDC extended it on July 21 (announced on July 16, effective July 21). That was 8 days notice.

 

In any event, I don't think it matters because everyone knows nothing can happen until the plans are approved. CDC is not simply going to drop the requirement for that. The extension of the order is a given, so it doesn't matter if they announce it today or three days before it expires.

 

I'm not sure what you think will happen differently if they delay the announcement. There are other milestones that have not been met.

 

It has to do with planning.  Since you are a teacher by profession, I would think, you, more than anyone would understand this.  

[livingonthebeach]

1 minute ago, Pratique said:

This only pertains to the order. Please see the order itself. https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/pdf/No-Sail-Order-Cruise-Ships-Second-Extension_07_16_2020-p.pdf

 

Page 19: Cruise ship operators shall continue to suspend passenger operations and not embark passengers, except as approved by HHS/CDC personnel.

 

I’ll leave hair splitting and semantics to academia.  Carry on...

[Milwaukee Eight]

15 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

They can let the no-sail order expire in eight days and not extend it or extend it for X number of days as well.  There are no scheduled sailings until November 1st but a lot has to happen between now and the 1st of November for the sailings to occur.  The point is the CDC knows approximately how much time is needed to approve plans so they should make the announcement sooner than later so people can get on with their lives (not just the lives of those on CC). 

You’re aware that these cruise ships are not flagged in the US?  The CDC is here to protect us, not the cruise lines. It’s unfortunate that many people are affected with the no sail order. It’s really a very small fraction of the people in the US that are affected by the no sail order. 
 

M8

[Milwaukee Eight]

7 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

It has to do with planning.  Since you are a teacher by profession, I would think, you, more than anyone would understand this.  

Whose planning?  A very limited number of US Residents?

You’re not looking at the big picture. 
 

M8

[livingonthebeach]

Just now, Milwaukee Eight said:

You’re aware that these cruise ships are not flagged in the US?  The CDC is here to protect us, not the cruise lines. It’s unfortunate that many people are affected with the no sail order. It’s really a very small fraction of the people in the US that are affected by the no sail order. 
 

M8

 

Yes of course in comparison to other industries in the US.  The economic impact is only about 52 billion compared to GDP of 20.5 trillion.  That said, some areas are more affected than others and there are many US workers unemployed right now due to the halt in cruise operations.  

[Pratique]

8 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

It has to do with planning.  Since you are a teacher by profession, I would think, you, more than anyone would understand this.  

Nothing can happen until the cruise lines submit their plans. The ball is still in their court. If we are in suspense today it is because we are waiting for the plans, not for the CDC.

[Milwaukee Eight]

Just now, livingonthebeach said:

 

Yes of course in comparison to other industries in the US.  The economic impact is only about 52 billion compared to GDP of 20.5 trillion.  That said, some areas are more affected than others and there are many US workers unemployed right now due to the halt in cruise operations.  

And many other businesses and people still affected and shut down due to the pandemic.  The cruise industry is a very small slice of the pie as compared to the rest. Sure, some areas like Miami are affected more. The ports are not closed so that portion, although limited a bit, is still happening. 
 

Big picture thinking. How can restaurants and other businesses be limited on capacity or onsite changes and a confined space like a cruise ship operate?  Miami just began to open up, at a very strict and limited capacity. 
 

Sorry .....  

 

M8

[chengkp75]

2 hours ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

So bottom line is they will more than likely extend the no-sail order in order to review the submitted detailed plans?  Why don’t they just announce that now instead of keeping everyone in suspense for another week?  

 

IDK but lately I’ve lost faith in that agency after delving more into their series of snafus, the latest just yesterday.  

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/21/cdc-says-it-erroneously-posted-guidance-that-said-coronavirus-spreads-through-air-and-and-travel-beyond-six-feet.html

I really can't say, as I don't know how far the cruise lines have gone to integrate these proposals into a concrete plan for their ships.  But my guess is that they have decided not to waste time working on plans if the guidelines aren't approved.

And, based on the request for information from the CDC, I can suspect that the "no sail order" may lapse, but that the requirements contained within it will become federal regulations for cruise ships to obtain health clearance from now on, so ships will still likely not meet requirements right away.

Edited September 22, 2020 by chengkp75

[livingonthebeach]

1 minute ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

And many other businesses and people still affected and shut down due to the pandemic.  The cruise industry is a very small slice of the pie as compared to the rest. Sure, some areas like Miami are affected more. The ports are not closed so that portion, although limited a bit, is still happening. 
 

Big picture thinking. How can restaurants and other businesses be limited on capacity or onsite changes and a confined space like a cruise ship operate?  Miami just began to open up, at a very strict and limited capacity. 
 

Sorry .....  

 

M8

 

Miami is phase 2 of reopening.  Bowling alleys, arcades and other indoor amusement facilities have reopened at 50 per cent capacity.  These are non essential businesses held indoors for entertainment.  Unlike cruising, they have very little econmic impact to the local economy. 

[livingonthebeach]

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

I really can't say, as I don't know how far the cruise lines have gone to integrate these proposals into a concrete plan for their ships.  But my guess is that they have decided not to waste time working on plans if the guidelines aren't approved.

And, based on the request for information from the CDC, I can suspect that the "no sail order" may lapse, but that the requirements contained within it will become federal regulations for cruise ships to obtain health clearance from now on, so ships will still likely not meet requirements right away.

 

That makes sense.  Thanks.  

[livingonthebeach]

30 minutes ago, Pratique said:

Nothing can happen until the cruise lines submit their plans. The ball is still in their court. If we are in suspense today it is because we are waiting for the plans, not for the CDC.

 

IIRC, I believe the plans were already submitted months ago back in April and it took the CDC months to review and were finally rejected.  As chengkp75 stated, " my guess is that they have decided not to waste time working on plans if the guidelines aren't approved." 

 

They might be waiting on word that the guidelines are approved before submitting a detailed plan, which if the case, could translate in many more months of waiting and many cancellations.  We might be looking at a Catch-22 situation...urgh 😩

[Pratique]

1 minute ago, livingonthebeach said:

 

IIRC, I believe the plans were already submitted months ago back in April and it took the CDC months to review and were finally rejected.  As chengkp75 stated, " my guess is that they have decided not to waste time working on plans if the guidelines aren't approved." 

 

They might be waiting on word that the guidelines are approved before submitting a detailed plan, which if the case, could translate in many more months of waiting and many cancellations.  We might be looking at a Catch-22 situation...urgh 😩

I thought Bayley just said they were still working on the plans.

[Milwaukee Eight]

53 minutes ago, livingonthebeach said:

Unlike cruising, they have very little econmic impact to the local economy. 

Are you suggesting that Cruising should be opened for economic impact?  These ships are not flagged in the US. You don’t think the current local businesses have an economic impact. 
 

We eat out once or twice a week. I feel much safer in the restaurants we pick and dinning in then I would on a cruise ship for a week. 
 

Our first cruise is not until October 2021. It’s a Charter. I’m not sure it will be allowed at full capacity and if so, is likely to be cancelled. 
 

M8

Edited September 22, 2020 by Milwaukee Eight

[livingonthebeach]

5 minutes ago, Milwaukee Eight said:

Are you suggesting that Cruising should be opened for economic impact?  These ships are not flagged in the US. You don’t think the current local businesses have an economic impact. 
 

We eat out once or twice a week. I feel much safer in the restaurants we pick and dinning in then I would on a cruise ship for a week. 
 

Our first cruise is not until October 2021. It’s a Charter. I’m not sure it will be allowed at full capacity and if so, is likely to be cancelled. 
 

M8

 

There are many local businesses impacted by the halt in cruise operations.  I'm not suggesting anything other than stating my opinion that the CDC should not drag its heels in reviewing a plan for acceptance -- that is all.  Period.  There are certainly a lot of livelihoods locally, in Florida, in the US and internationally that are affected.  I get that you are worried about the cruise lines dumping infected people at our ports, and I agree with that 100 per cent - I live in a port city and do not want that either.  I don't think anyone should cruise until health and safety measures are approved.  Europe has restarted using acceptable protocols and if we adopt the measures that have worked for them and the CDC gives a green light then I think it would be safe -- even safer than bowling alleys, arcades, dancing halls and sports entertainment venues -- most of which have already reopened in Miami-Dade County.  

 

Florida from the Miami Herald:

At risk are 150,000 Florida jobs and $7.7 billion in wages, according to a study by the Cruise Lines International Association covering information through 2018, the last year for which data is available. About 60% of North America’s 14.2 million 2018 passengers boarded through PortMiami and PortEverglades. At PortMiami alone, cruise passengers grew by 22% in 2019, port officials said in January.

The industry comprises far more than approximately 10,000 workers directly employed by the three major companies — revenue managers, computer programmers, lawyers, itinerary planners, call-center workers. Cruising also supports food purveyors, florists, interior designers, taxi and Uber drivers, bus companies, luggage handlers, airlines, hotels and travel advisors.