Antartica in December? Final Payment due soon!

[mpclaw]

Final payment, (over 30k) due for Holiday Cruise to Antartica soon. Of course no one has a crystal ball, but it would be hard to think it will go. Especially with the need for international (now virtually non-existent) flights from the US 

Very reluctant to make final payment and unless Seabourn extends the deadline, (August 24) my wife and I (sadly) will let it go.   

[cruiseej]

@mpclaw  I understand exactly! We booked the holiday cruise on Silversea (we probably prefer Seabourn to SS, but the lure of a ship with just over half the number of passengers as the Quest won us over) for this December -- and paid for it in full because SS gives a 10% discount for doing so -- but we recently got our money back and switched our booking to December 2021. As you say, it's questionable whether any of the Antarctica cruises will run this year, but we decided even if they did, we weren't ready to travel under the current conditions. The risks involved with travel to and within South America, being on a ship far from cities or major hospitals, and likely restricted activities on the ship just made it not appealing for the once-in-a-lifetime trip we envisioned. (How will they socially distance the boarding of and riding on zodiacs? Does that mean fewer landings because of decreased capacity?)

 

So being in your shoes, I agree that I'd cancel. Book for next year and hope we'll be in a better place by then. (I realize that's not as easily done than said with Seabourn, because next year's trips on the new, smaller Venture are significantly more expensive than this year's trips on Quest.  We really wanted to sail on Venture next winter, but the trip we wanted -- including South Georgia Island -- got up to about $60k, not including air, versus under $50k including air on Silversea. But, geez, I'd so love to go on the Venture!)

[margbem]

We are also booked for the Antarctica trip in January. Final payment due in November. There is no way we will be going but because we are UK based we cannot just cancel as our deposit is non refundable. Our only choice is to transfer our deposit onto another sailing sometime before the end of January 2022. However, next year's prices are prohibitive at the moment! We are hoping that Seabourn cancels this season's Antarctica schedule so we can have our deposit back! 

[MightyQuinn]

It's important to look not only at the final payment date but also at the cancellation fee schedule.  With Seabourn you usually go into penalty BEFORE final payment is due.

As an example, we were booked on the Feb 24/21 sailing to Antarctica & South Georgia which we decided to cancel for all the reasons cited by cruiseej.  Our final payment was due Oct 27/20 but there would be a 12% gross fare penalty if we cancelled after Sept 27/20.  That means we would have been hit with substantial penalties a full month before final payment was due.  YMMV so best to check the penalty schedule applicable to your sailing.
 

[jjs217]

We are booked for the Dec Holiday Antarctica too.  Praying and hoping, it will still go.  We are planning on going ahead and making the final payment (ours isn't due until Sept 21st).  Then if it cancels, we will just roll it all over to the ridiculously expensive  2021 Venture Antarctica Holiday cruise.  Since we have had two other trips cancelled, we are saving all kinds of money this year, so figure we can splurge on the Venture - if need be.  Also, our airfare can be cancelled at anytime, so no problem with that issue.   

[hoya68]

We already shifted to the February itinerary, which is in the opposite direction of the December one. Frankly, we doubt that will be a go either, but we can always move our payment to a later cruise. The Venture may be a bit dear for our blood. I guess one can hope that the Venture will not be ready on schedule and they will pull Quest for another year.

[jenidallas]

23 minutes ago, hoya68 said:

I guess one can hope that the Venture will not be ready on schedule and they will pull Quest for another year.

Isn’t there a new regulation for cruise ships in Antarctic waters that will make the Quest no longer permissible for those sailings after this Antarctic season?

[MMastell]

I cancelled my 1/13/2021 Antarctic cruise. I'm just not willing to take the chance since on immunosuppressants after my heart transplant.

 

Take care,

Mike 

[MightyQuinn]

Good news for those holding a reservation for Quest Antarctica this season!  While those sailings will not proceed this year, Seabourn announced today:

Seabourn Quest will operate the line’s 2021-2022 award-winning Antarctica experience.

Guests who are currently confirmed on one of the affected voyages on Seabourn Quest’s Antarctica, Amazon, Panama Canal, South America and Transatlantic cruises scheduled between November 7, 2020 and April 25, 2021, will automatically be re-accommodated in the same suite on the same voyage during Seabourn Quest’s 2021-2022 season, at rate paid, within 30 days, as well as receive a shipboard credit that is calculated based upon voyage length. The shipboard credit is $300 per suite for voyages up to 20 days in length and $500 per suite for voyages of 21 days or more.

https://www.seabourn.com/en_US/news/pause-global-cruise-operations.html

 

[Joc123]

Does this mean the Venture will not be sailing until 2023?

I can’t imagine they would have 2 ships going to Antarctica. Love to have more information about Venture’s progress as we are booked on inaugural cruise July 2021 -don’t expect that to happen 

[zelker]

Today, Seabourn announced that it will cancel additional voyages for three cruise ships in its fleet as a part of its pause in global ship operations.  The announcement applies to Seabourn Ovation, Seabourn Encore, and Seabourn Quest with each ship having a different “effective through” date. Specific details are as follows:

•Seabourn Ovation: with its operations pause effective through January 3, 2021
•Seabourn Encore: with its operations pause effective through January 6, 2021
•Seabourn Quest: with its operations pause effective through May 10, 2021

 

Seabourn is also announcing a revised delivery date for its new ultra-luxury purpose-built expedition ship, Seabourn Venture, which is now scheduled for December 1, 2021. The delay is because of shipyard closures at T. Mariotti earlier this year as part of responses to COVID-19, which resulted in disruptions to the overall construction and finishing process for the ship. For more information: https://www.seabourn.com/…/pause-global-cruise-operations.h…

[MightyQuinn]

24 minutes ago, Joc123 said:

Does this mean the Venture will not be sailing until 2023?

I can’t imagine they would have 2 ships going to Antarctica. Love to have more information about Venture’s progress as we are booked on inaugural cruise July 2021 -don’t expect that to happen 

 

From the announcement by Seabourn today:

 

Details about the revised inaugural season for Seabourn Venture are currently being finalized and will be announced in October. The brand has opened a wait list for guests interested in the voyages from December 2021 to April 2022. Guests currently booked on the inaugural voyage for Seabourn Venture will be offered the opportunity to sail on the new inaugural itinerary on a priority basis before it is open for sale to the general public. Additional details on rebooking for other affected Seabourn Venture voyages will be shared with booked guests and travel advisors in mid-October.

[MightyQuinn]

On 8/31/2020 at 4:47 AM, chengkp75 said:

Marina, built in 2011, will complete her second Special Survey in Jan 2021, and that will be the latest her polar certificate will last, so she will not be permitted to operate south of latitude 60* after that date.  60* south is a parallel that crosses only ocean as it circles the globe, and the closest land is the South Shetland Islands, 35 miles (over the horizon) south, and the South Georgia Islands (60 miles) and the Antarctic Peninsula (180 miles to the tip) are further.

 

Even most of the expedition ships will no longer be permitted in Arctic/Antarctic waters after 2021, only those built within the last 2-3 years.

 

chengkp75 ... I have followed your posts for years and value your informed judgement.  I copied your comments from Oceania over here so I could ask you a question.

 

Yesterday Seabourn announced that Quest would not be sailing their planned Antarctic/South Georgia itineraries this year but would operate them for the 2021-2022 season.  Guests booked on affected sailings for this season have automatically been re-accommodated on the same voyage for 2021-2022.  The time frame for those Antarctic voyages would be Nov 2021-Feb 2022.  Are you able to provide comments on whether Quest would be permitted to operate south of 60* latitude at that time? 

[jjs217]

I too was booked on the Dec 20th cruise to Antarctica, and I would like to know how the Quest is going to be able to sail next year when it doesn't meet the criteria.  I asked the booking agent on the phone and she didn't have a clue as to what I was talking about.

[zelker]

While I'm not surprised a phone agent wouldn't have a clue about what you're asking, I'm sure Seabourn stays on top of any changes.  That said, I don't see any recent changes that would preclude Quest from going there in 2021/22 when it was going to be allowed to go this upcoming season.

[Ken the cruiser]

6 hours ago, MightyQuinn said:

 

chengkp75 ... I have followed your posts for years and value your informed judgement.  I copied your comments from Oceania over here so I could ask you a question.

 

Yesterday Seabourn announced that Quest would not be sailing their planned Antarctic/South Georgia itineraries this year but would operate them for the 2021-2022 season.  Guests booked on affected sailings for this season have automatically been re-accommodated on the same voyage for 2021-2022.  The time frame for those Antarctic voyages would be Nov 2021-Feb 2022.  Are you able to provide comments on whether Quest would be permitted to operate south of 60* latitude at that time? 

I believe you didn't highlight @chengkp75 correctly for CC to notify him regarding your comment referencing him. So I thought I would make the attempt as we're definitely interested in his answer.

[MightyQuinn]

23 minutes ago, Ken the cruiser said:

I believe you didn't highlight @chengkp75 correctly for CC to notify him regarding your comment referencing him. So I thought I would make the attempt as we're definitely interested in his answer.

 

He should get a CC notification that I quoted his post, as well as an email to his address on file.  At least, that's how it's always worked for me.  Unless he has notifications turned off. 

[jjs217]

6 hours ago, zelker said:

While I'm not surprised a phone agent wouldn't have a clue about what you're asking, I'm sure Seabourn stays on top of any changes.  That said, I don't see any recent changes that would preclude Quest from going there in 2021/22 when it was going to be allowed to go this upcoming season.

Oh - okay.  For some reason I was thinking that the Quest was no longer sailing to Antarctica after this season because it wasn't a Polar Class II (?) ship, and the Venture will be classified as such.  But, that is okay with me if the Quest will still be cruising in Antarctica next season.

[Ken the cruiser]

3 minutes ago, MightyQuinn said:

 

He should get a CC notification that I quoted his post, as well as an email to his address on file.  At least, that's how it's always worked for me.  Unless he has notifications turned off. 

Good point! Well, now he's getting pinged twice.

[Two4Sea]

Part I -the rules
I too have appreciated ChEngKP75 input on this subject to CruiseCritic. In view of it, I'm going to try a layman's summary of Antarctic rules.

 

Ice Class -is a long running rating that is to do with the hull's ability to withstand hitting floating ice and to hit back, breaking ice up to the heaviest levels. Ordinary cruise ships have little or no rating here.

 

The Polar Code is a new requirement to do with:
-the officer's training for navigating in the cold and ice
-the fitness of the bridge equipment re cold and ice encrusting
-the fitness of the fire system re cold and ice encrusting
-the fitness of the lifeboat system re cold and ice encrusting
-the ability to protect and muster the passengers under those conditions
-the ability to evacuate them despite those conditions
-the ability to do all this despite the great distance to any help.
It also includes some items about respecting the polar environment particularly the type of fuel carried.

 

The Polar Code came into place Jan 2017, at that instant all existing ships were grandfathered. The grandfathering is to expire at the ship's first major inspection, that being an appropriate time to install any needed modifications. As the space between major inspections is 5 years, all the existing ships will have reached one by Jan 2022. So there will be no grandfathered ships left at that point and only ones that have been built or refitted to the Code will be eligible to enter the Polar code areas.

 

The Polar Code applies to any area south of 60 degrees in the Antarctic and north of 60 degrees in the Arctic except for a bulge around Northern Europe. A ship at the 60 degree south line can barely see the outermost reach of the Antarctic at South Georgia Island, nothing else. Seeing berg bits or wildlife would be random.

 

The Code has 3 degrees of requirements based on the ice one expects to encounter. This ranges from sticking to completely clear water to brushing by floating ice to serious ice breaking.

 

Part II -opinion
So a cruise ship with no Ice Class rating and being careful to only sail in clear water could qualify by just meeting the knowledge, cold, ice encrusting and survival equipment requirements. The industry's initial reaction seems to have been that such a refit would be too costly however and that expedition ships were the way to go. The fact that landings are limited to small ships would contribute to this view.

 

One other drawback to a refit would be the revenue lost while the ship spent extra days in the yard. This may be what Covid has changed, the ships are laid up anyway so the work would not be a five million dollar a week revenue loss (say US$500 p/p per day, 700 pax medium/small ship). There is also enough lead time here to see how well bookings take to the idea before actually having to contract with the ship yard.

 

So far:
HAL -has been using "Antarctic Experience" in their 2022 write-ups but their itineraries and maps had not shown actually going south of 60 degrees. When I look today however they do reach the Palmer Archipelago.
Oceania -has a Jan 9, 2022 trip with Antarctic drive cruising points named and a map showing them.
Seabourn -has announced that the Quest will perform their customary full 2020-21 Antarctic visit and landings in 2021-22.

 

I think what we have here is that the lines are coming around to seeing how to run their familiar Antarctic cruises and still conform to the Polar Code.

 

My two bits worth, Bill

[Two4Sea]

 While I wrote ChEng replied to the Oceania board

 

 

Bill

[MightyQuinn]

45 minutes ago, Two4Sea said:

Part II -opinion

 

So a cruise ship with no Ice Class rating and being careful to only sail in clear water could qualify by just meeting the knowledge, cold, ice encrusting and survival equipment requirements.

 

I think what we have here is that the lines are coming around to seeing how to run their familiar Antarctic cruises and still conform to the Polar Code.

 

I think you're onto something Bill.   According to the International Maritime Organization, ships intending to operating in the defined waters of the Antarctic and Arctic must apply for a Polar Ship Certificate, which would classify the vessel as:

 

Category A - ships designed for operation in polar waters at least in medium first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions

 

Category B  - a ship not included in category A, designed for operation in polar waters in at least thin first-year ice, which may include old ice inclusions

 

Category C - a ship designed to operate in open water or in ice conditions less severe than those included in Categories A and B.

 

chengkp75 said that Quest was issued a "Polar Ship Passenger" certificate by Lloyd's in 2018 and I bet it's designated a Category C ship under the Polar Code.  I don't know when the Quest certificate will expire but presumably not before 2022.

 

http://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/HotTopics/polar/Pages/default.aspx

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, Two4Sea said:

So a cruise ship with no Ice Class rating and being careful to only sail in clear water could qualify by just meeting the knowledge, cold, ice encrusting and survival equipment requirements.

I'll disagree with this.  The Code does require even Class C vessels (those that will not operate in any ice conditions) to be ice strengthened, but it gives the "administration" (flag state or class) leeway in determining if the ship's existing structure meets the requirements for arctic waters, and how to determine "equivalent" strengthening.  The ships must still meet Ice Class P6 as a passenger vessel, even when obtaining a Class C certificate.  A Class C certificate allows for areas of the ship to not meet ice strengthening in all areas, if there has been a past record of ice operation with no damage.  It is a bit fuzzy, so you need to go to each class societies rules to see how they interpret the Polar Code.

 

As for the Quest, since the Polar Ship Passenger certificate was issued in 2018, it must meet the new code, and is renewable every 5 years.

 

And, I don't have notifications on, sorry.

Edited September 1, 2020 by chengkp75

[Two4Sea]

Thanks for the clarification Chief. I do recollect small modifications being done to The Quest's hull before Seabourn started their original Antarctic program.

 

What we seem to have come to is that the Polar Code rules for existing ships are not quite the brick wall deadline that they first seemed to be. The neccesary modifications may be achievable after all

 

Bill
 

[andiamo76]

Wow.  Great information here.  I had no idea about any of this.  We were booked on the holiday sailing for this year which as you all know has been moved forward to December '21.  Surely SB would not plan to roll the itinerary forward, still using the Quest if they would not be able to still use the Quest due to this.