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Venice and cruise ships....Update!...ships banned from lagoon


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So most know the Venetians have been battling about this for several years now but according to this article from last week, ships will no longer be stopping in Venice?!

 

I thought they just wanted the ships to take a wider path around and not up the main channel that runs by St. Marks square?

 

Anyways, I know some people here could care less as they don't like Venice but the wife and I love it. It's probably our favorite European city.

 

I can see how some in the service industry would be not happy about this move.

 

More details here...

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rebeccahughes/2020/08/13/no-cruise-ships-in-venice-environmental-victory-or-economic-blow/#126158be1fa9

Edited by pc_load_letter
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This has been discussed quite extensively on the Italy forum here whenever news crops up.

 

Initially the thought was mainly one of preserving the foundations of Venice's buildings and the integrity of the infrastructure by re-routing ships so that they did not traverse the Giudecca canal through the heart of the main island of Venice. They would still (at least all but the largest) be able to dock at the main Venice port.

 

However, in the last several years the huge increase in cruise ships (both number and size of them), together with research regarding the effects on the fragile ecosystem of the Venetian lagoon have led to more drastic proposals that would have cruise ships docking much further away from Venice proper. The problem with that approach is that it probably would require years of planning and construction to ensure appropriate docking facilities around the lagoon and infrastructure to get the tourists from these new ports to Venice (which is, of course, where they want to be).

 

It is unclear to me from the article whether this "news" really represents a permanent victory for the "No Grandi Navi" group, or whether it is simply a matter of Costa and MSC (the only cruise ships currently actively sailing from Italian ports) having decided to avoid Venice for the remainder of this cruise season -- which typically starts to diminish by mid-October.

 

I believe the powers-that-be recognize that the current situation in Venice is untenable. But as pointed out, Venice also relies heavily on tourism. 

 

I suspect that we may see a back-and-forth dance for the next few seasons depending on the willingness of Italy's local and national governing structure to devise and carry out a workable plan for the city.  That almost certainly means it will be years until the situation is fully addressed. 

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Its a huge decision. We were among the lucky one's in that we were able to traverse the city on the Grand Canal. I had thought that once the route was diverted to using Giudecca to access the cruise port the problem was alleviated. Clearly this does not seem to be the case. 

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5 hours ago, Aquahound said:

Had to be done to help preserve Venice.  I'm fortunate that I got to see a Venice sail-away, which remains my favorite to date.

 

 

Hogwash this is what would save Venice, LOL

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Actually it´s just that No Grandi Navi resumed their protests when MSC / Costa talked about their restart plans. No Grandi Navi wants the ships to stay out of Venice for the whole season. They announced protests in case cruising resumes and they wanted to prevent the cruise ships from cruising out of Venice for the rest of this season.

 

MSC and Costa both reacted in changing their embarkation port to Trieste. As far as I remember MSC wanted to restart out of Venice. But to avoid any troubles they both changed to Trieste.

 

RCI recently changed to Ravenna for all 2021 departures.

 

There was also - as mentioned  in the article - a protest of the port workers as they of course want their jobs back.

 

There´s still no law forbidding the cruise ships to enter the port of Venice. So nothing has really changed.

 

steamboats

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I don't see this as significant news.

 

It's a voluntary decision and only by the big two Italian lines, not an edict from the city fathers.

It only relates to this season - if indeed there's to be any cruising this season.

They've decided not to turn around in Venice, no mention of Venice as a port-of-call.

 

As cruisemom & others have posted this has been a long-running battle, and there have been so many decisions, variations of those decisions, and u-turns on those decisions, that I wouldn't take anything for granted until it happens - and even then decisions can be reversed.

 

It's tough, striking a balance between conservation and the economy.

But (other than the current little Covid inconvenience) Venice will continue to be crowded with day-trippers, even if no cruise ship comes within 100 miles.

 

I guess I come down on the side of the conservationists - but I don't suppose my views carry much weight. :classic_rolleyes::classic_wink:

 

JB :classic_smile:

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No surprise and I have some very mixed emotions.  As a long time (over forty years) cruise lover there are few cruise experiences better then gliding through the lagoon and Giudecca Canal into Venice.  DW and I have had many wonderful moments cruising in and out of the port.  That being said we are also lovers of Italy, its culture, people, and atmosphere.  There is little doubt that the mega ships cause environmental issues in Venice which already has more then its share of environmental problems.  So, we do find our self in agreement with those opposed to large ships moving through the Giudecca to the Maritima.  We see less of an issue with smaller ships (perhaps 50,000 ton should be the limit) moving in and out of Venice.  

 

What will happen with Venice and cruising?  One proposal has been to build a new cruise ship facility on the mainland (not far from Venice).  I have been an outspoken critic of this plan because we do not see any good way to move hoards of cruise ship passengers between any mainland port and Venice.  Since there has been little talk of extending a rail spur to a new cruise facility this would leave large buses as the only remaining option.   A 4000 passenger ship would need to operate well over 100 bus runs per day to simply move their passengers to and fro and we think this would cause lots of problems on the causeway and bus parking areas.   If they were to move people through the Piazale Roma it would have an awful impact on that relatively compact area.  If they were to use Tronchetto as a bud loading/unloading area it would overwhelm the People Mover.  So I think any talk of a new cruise facility needs to give more consideration to some kind of new transportation system and this would likely take over 20 years to envision given the snails pace of Italian planning.

 

Hank

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On 8/13/2020 at 3:51 PM, Oulton Jim said:

Its a huge decision. We were among the lucky one's in that we were able to traverse the city on the Grand Canal. I had thought that once the route was diverted to using Giudecca to access the cruise port the problem was alleviated. Clearly this does not seem to be the case. 

 

No cruise ship has ever traversed the city on the Grand Canal – you would have knocked down the Rialto bridge!  They come in on the Giudecca Canal.  The proposal for them to come in from a different entrance to the lagoon and proceed to the Venice Cruise Port would require dredging a channel, which would undoubtedly stir up all sorts of opposition [pun intended].  The more drastic proposal to divert ships to Marghera's cargo port would kill the romance of sailing to Venice.  The ultimate solution may be for cruises to start/end in Trieste and have passengers add time in Venice [which would bring more money to hotels and restaurants].

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Apologies! I still have the mental picture of being on the upper deck as we saw St Mark's Square passing over to the starboard before continuing to the terminal via Giudecca. [I think lockdown is crumbling my cerebellum] 🙃

Edited by Oulton Jim
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18 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

No cruise ship has ever traversed the city on the Grand Canal – you would have knocked down the Rialto bridge!  They come in on the Giudecca Canal.  The proposal for them to come in from a different entrance to the lagoon and proceed to the Venice Cruise Port would require dredging a channel, which would undoubtedly stir up all sorts of opposition [pun intended].  The more drastic proposal to divert ships to Marghera's cargo port would kill the romance of sailing to Venice.  The ultimate solution may be for cruises to start/end in Trieste and have passengers add time in Venice [which would bring more money to hotels and restaurants].

I have not heard much about using Trieste as an option and its an interesting idea.    But they also have the issue of how to move many thousands of folks between Venice and Trieste.  I guess it would be possible to have dedicated charter trains between Trieste and Venice which would probably take 1 1/2 - 2 hours each way.   But as you said about using the mainland Marghera port, the romance would not come close to sailing in and out of Venice.  I suspect that more of the smaller ship luxury lines will soon revamp their schedules to include more stops at Venice which will become one more strong selling point.

 

Hank

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1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

I have not heard much about using Trieste as an option and its an interesting idea.    But they also have the issue of how to move many thousands of folks between Venice and Trieste.  I guess it would be possible to have dedicated charter trains between Trieste and Venice which would probably take 1 1/2 - 2 hours each way.   But as you said about using the mainland Marghera port, the romance would not come close to sailing in and out of Venice.  I suspect that more of the smaller ship luxury lines will soon revamp their schedules to include more stops at Venice which will become one more strong selling point.

 

Hank

 

I mentioned it because when this Venice cruise ban first started (abortively) Crystal announced mid-voyage that we couldn't go to Venice so would end in Trieste.  Thankfully that ban was quickly rescinded and we did end up in Venice.  And of course Crystal Serenity has only a fraction of the pax count of the mega ships that are the real focus of the ban.

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16 hours ago, Oulton Jim said:

Apologies! I still have the mental picture of being on the upper deck as we saw St Mark's Square passing over to the starboard before continuing to the terminal via Giudecca. [I think lockdown is crumbling my cerebellum] 🙃


Your memory is fine. They do sail by San Marco just prior to turning up the Giudecca.  Just not up the Grand Canal.  I have that same memory along with being in St Mark’s  square and looking up to see a huge cruise ship sail by.   

4E90EE7C-AE63-4BE7-9570-8A1C4315C60F.jpeg

Edited by bennybear
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Regarding Trieste it is a lovely spot on its own at quite a distance from Venice.  It has very unusual gelato and is relatively untouristy.  The Miramare castle is lovely and you are in easy reach of Udine, a ducal palace and Palmanova,  a lovely star shaped town.

image.jpeg.6daebba91d626c45e3f512ab40996884.jpeg

Edited by bennybear
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Venice would for sure survive without cruise passengers. Although many people think that this is the main problem...it isn`t. Only approx. 3%(!) of the yearly tourists in Vencice are coming/going by cruise ship. So even if you would ban them completely to somewhere else, you wouldn`t solve the problem with overtourism at all !

You would help the city quite a lot in regards of air pollution and you would also save the nature by not going into the lagoon with big cruise vessels anymore. So a docking port outside the lagoon would help the city(cleaner air) and the nature.It would not destroy too many jobs and the financial losses would be relatively minimal compared to the improvements of clean air and the ecosystem of the lagoon. As far as i know the plannings for this docking facilities are already almost complete.They just have to start construction.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, CruiseMH said:

Venice would for sure survive without cruise passengers. Although many people think that this is the main problem...it isn`t. Only approx. 3%(!) of the yearly tourists in Vencice are coming/going by cruise ship. So even if you would ban them completely to somewhere else, you wouldn`t solve the problem with overtourism at all !

You would help the city quite a lot in regards of air pollution and you would also save the nature by not going into the lagoon with big cruise vessels anymore. So a docking port outside the lagoon would help the city(cleaner air) and the nature.It would not destroy too many jobs and the financial losses would be relatively minimal compared to the improvements of clean air and the ecosystem of the lagoon. As far as i know the plannings for this docking facilities are already almost complete.They just have to start construction.

 

 

But the question of how they will move thousands (possibly over 10,000 a day) between a mainland facility and Venice has not been addressed by anyone!    I guess it is an Italian tradition to solve one problem by creating new problems.

 

Hank

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The question is how many cruise ship passengers really want to go from cruise port to Vencie. Venice is a classic embarkation/debarkation port. 90 % of the passenger embark or disembark there.So they usually do not got to Venice at all or do stay there a few days before/after the cruise. So i think many people will go directly from the airport to the new port.And for the ones with the hotel in Venice there will be still the options for water taxi or water busses. It should be easy to create a new water bus line from the city centre to the new port.

 

Yes,there might still be the need to improve the traffic infrastructure to the new port,but this should be possible and relatively chaep.

 

 

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The best view of St Mark's bell-tower is from the deck of a cruise ship

                                                   (because from there the view isn't spoiled by a damned great cruise ship!)

 

JB :classic_smile:

Edited by John Bull
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9 hours ago, CruiseMH said:

The question is how many cruise ship passengers really want to go from cruise port to Vencie. Venice is a classic embarkation/debarkation port. 90 % of the passenger embark or disembark there.So they usually do not got to Venice at all or do stay there a few days before/after the cruise. So i think many people will go directly from the airport to the new port.And for the ones with the hotel in Venice there will be still the options for water taxi or water busses. It should be easy to create a new water bus line from the city centre to the new port.

 

Yes,there might still be the need to improve the traffic infrastructure to the new port,but this should be possible and relatively chaep.

 

 

I do disagree.  For most folks, seeing Venice is a highlight of a cruise that embarks, disembarks or stops at that port.  As to improving the traffic infrastructure, there is no easy way to make any major change.  The only road access to Venice is via a single long causeway which ends in Venice at the relatively compact Piazale Roma.  I have no idea of what you consider a reasonable " cheap"  solution.  Having driven the roads around Venice myself, I have a good idea of the problem and cannot think of any "cheap" solution.  My comment about busing folks to Tronchetto (from where you can access the People Mover) does keep buses out of Venice (Piazale Roma) but would quickly overwhelm the People Mover and likely incur the anger of the many locals who park their cars on Tronchetto and use the People Mover to get to work.

 

You can be very sure that the same groups that have opposed large cruise ships in Venice will also oppose hundreds of large buses on the causeway.  When Venice improved the Maratima (cruise port) they had enough foresight to construct the efficient People Mover which causes no pollution and does not add to traffic.   There is nothing similar existing from a mainland port and nothing on the planning boards.   History shows us that Italy is very slow to adopt good solutions to transportation problems.  In fact, they have continued to ignore their own history and create new problems such as when they decided to welcome large cruise ships to La Spezia and create an awful people problem in Riomaggiore and the villages of Cinque Terre.  I have no faith in the Italian government to solve the Venice issue.  So far, the government has been dragged (kicking and screaming) into going along with the latest trend towards banning large ships from Venice.   What would be typical of Italy is to open up a mainland port and only then, start to thing about how to deal with transfer problems.

 

Hank

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14 hours ago, Hlitner said:

I do disagree.  For most folks, seeing Venice is a highlight of a cruise that embarks, disembarks or stops at that port.  As to improving the traffic infrastructure, there is no easy way to make any major change.  The only road access to Venice is via a single long causeway which ends in Venice at the relatively compact Piazale Roma.  I have no idea of what you consider a reasonable " cheap"  solution.  Having driven the roads around Venice myself, I have a good idea of the problem and cannot think of any "cheap" solution.  My comment about busing folks to Tronchetto (from where you can access the People Mover) does keep buses out of Venice (Piazale Roma) but would quickly overwhelm the People Mover and likely incur the anger of the many locals who park their cars on Tronchetto and use the People Mover to get to work.

 

You can be very sure that the same groups that have opposed large cruise ships in Venice will also oppose hundreds of large buses on the causeway.  When Venice improved the Maratima (cruise port) they had enough foresight to construct the efficient People Mover which causes no pollution and does not add to traffic.   There is nothing similar existing from a mainland port and nothing on the planning boards.   History shows us that Italy is very slow to adopt good solutions to transportation problems.  In fact, they have continued to ignore their own history and create new problems such as when they decided to welcome large cruise ships to La Spezia and create an awful people problem in Riomaggiore and the villages of Cinque Terre.  I have no faith in the Italian government to solve the Venice issue.  So far, the government has been dragged (kicking and screaming) into going along with the latest trend towards banning large ships from Venice.   What would be typical of Italy is to open up a mainland port and only then, start to thing about how to deal with transfer problems.

 

Hank

 

Your complete reply is based on the assumption that the port still is where it is now. But there are plans that the cruise port will be outside the lagoon,approx. at the spot where currently the north entrance to the lagoon is(where all cruise ships do enter the lagoon). From this spot you can easily arrange for a transfer service via water buses/taxis. The boats can easily dock almost everywhere in the city centre.No need for the people mover,no need for hundreds of buses to use the only road from mainland to Venice. This would solve a lot of problems and hardly creating any new ones. It is not that easy, but it is also not that difficult.

People who do want to get from the airport to the cruise ship will be transported by bus without even coming close to the city centre.People who want to stay a few days before/after in Venice can use the same options as at the moment(from/to the airport) .And the transfer from the hotels in the city centre to the cruise ships can be done by water taxis/water buses.

 

I do agree with you that even as the plans for such a port are quite far it will take years or even decades until the whole thing is finished.The italian political procedures are a desaster.

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22 hours ago, CruiseMH said:

 

Your complete reply is based on the assumption that the port still is where it is now. But there are plans that the cruise port will be outside the lagoon,approx. at the spot where currently the north entrance to the lagoon is(where all cruise ships do enter the lagoon). From this spot you can easily arrange for a transfer service via water buses/taxis. The boats can easily dock almost everywhere in the city centre.No need for the people mover,no need for hundreds of buses to use the only road from mainland to Venice. This would solve a lot of problems and hardly creating any new ones. It is not that easy, but it is also not that difficult.

People who do want to get from the airport to the cruise ship will be transported by bus without even coming close to the city centre.People who want to stay a few days before/after in Venice can use the same options as at the moment(from/to the airport) .And the transfer from the hotels in the city centre to the cruise ships can be done by water taxis/water buses.

 

I do agree with you that even as the plans for such a port are quite far it will take years or even decades until the whole thing is finished.The italian political procedures are a desaster.

Is the relocation spot at the north entrance to the lagoon you are talking near Chioggia , Fusina or some other spot?

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1 hour ago, Dukefan said:

Is the relocation spot at the north entrance to the lagoon you are talking near Chioggia , Fusina or some other spot?

Please find attached an image where i marked the old port and where the new port outside of the lagoon should be placed.

Of course the people living there have already protested.

But i think this would be a great solution.

Unbenannt.jpg

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It is quite an eye-opener to see a birds-eye view of the entirety of Venice lagoon as it stretches way down south -effectively dwarfing Venice itself. Those vaporetti/tenders are going to have a heyday if that new port location comes off.

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41 minutes ago, CruiseMH said:

Please find attached an image where i marked the old port and where the new port outside of the lagoon should be placed.

Of course the people living there have already protested.

But i think this would be a great solution.

Unbenannt.jpg

I also think this might be a good solution to the challenge faced if they can find a way to provide better transport that is currently available back and forth to the airport (Currently almost a two hour bus ride/one hour if you rent a car) and to San Marco (Currently an hour and fifteen minutes from this area requiring you to chance boats in Lido).   

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