What if Canada doesn't open its borders for cruises?

[Seacruise]

There was what I call a trial balloon floated a week or so back that Canada may not open up to cruise ships next spring/summer.
This was followed up later in the day with Cunard cancelling Alaska 2021 from Vancouver.
I suspect Cunard did this for many reasons as I doubt Asia will sail as promised. This would allow Cunard to reschedule the Queen Elizabeth in Europe and start selling those cruises now in stead of short notice or having to continue the refunds.

This was followed up by the Port Master in Victoria a few days later saying he has his doubts about ships in Victoria in 2021.

The borders will not open on September 21 as scheduled at this point due to the numbers in Washington State or many other border states. BC also today rolled back some of those things allowed to open.
Many in this part of the world don't see borders opening before 2021.

There is no way to know what will happen at this point.

[muffin]

Gentle geography lesson!  Impress the Canadians you meet!  Victoria City is the capital of British Columbia and it is located on VANCOUVER Island off the coast. The much larger city of Vancouver is located on the mainland of British Columbia.  There is no Victoria Island in British Columbia......this is a common misunderstanding. . 

 

 

 

 

 

[leerathje]

So, you could conceivably do a 14 day return, San Diego to Alaska, With a stop in Ensenada, correct?

[AtlantaCruiser72]

45 minutes ago, leerathje said:

So, you could conceivably do a 14 day return, San Diego to Alaska, With a stop in Ensenada, correct?

Yes, that would be legal under PVSA.  It could as easily be done from The LA/Long Beach ports as well.

[HappyInVan]

Canada is happy to open its borders once there are no more super spreader events.

 

“Study says 260,000 COVID-19 cases could be tied to Sturgis rally; Noem calls it 'fiction'

 

https://www.argusleader.com/story/news/2020/09/08/study-260-000-coronavirus-cases-likely-tied-sturgis-rally/5739139002/

 

 

The exact number is unclear. However, the official stat from South Dakota is revealing. The Rally started August 7 and ended August 16. Prior to the Rally, SD cases were @100/day. August 7 98 cases, August 16 156 cases, August 22 251 cases, August 29 425 cases, Sept 8 103 cases.

 

https://covidtracking.com/data/state/south-dakota/cases

 

[chengkp75]

9 hours ago, rkacruiser said:

 

I hear you.  There is a need for some thinking "outside of the box" in my opinion.  

 

The cruise lines may, in the near future, be faced with do we want to increase business on destinations that are guests are willing--and will be accepted--to sail?  Adjust the fares accordingly as need be.  Or does the business model that we have used for decades is still valid?  

 

If the cruise lines would choose to follow a different business model, there is, of course, the need for those "regulators and lawmakers"  to change the laws, rules, and regulations for such a change to take place.  

 

I rather feel that my thoughts of are the Don Quixote type. 

And it would likely require a major shift in their business model, since the cruise lines know that any trade off in getting their ships into the PVSA trade would likely entail meeting the stricter USCG regulations for US flag vessels, and most certainly that the crew would need US work visas, or in a climate of unemployment in the US, US workers, at US wages and labor laws.  Marad has determined, for cargo ships, with their much smaller overhead and crew, that it is 2.7 times as expensive to operate a US flag ship than a foreign flag one, and the crew cost is nearly 5 times the foreign crew.

[RuthC]

11 hours ago, sfocruiser said:

How About

 

• Boston
• Bar Harbor
• Day at sea
• St. Pierre and Miquelon
• Day at Sea
• Portland
• Newport
• Boston

 

Sounds plausible to me, since St. Pierre & Miquelon are France. I don't know if the time to get there and back would work. 
I would like to return to those French Islands and see more of them. 

[chengkp75]

43 minutes ago, RuthC said:

Sounds plausible to me, since St. Pierre & Miquelon are France. I don't know if the time to get there and back would work. 
I would like to return to those French Islands and see more of them. 

Bar Harbor to St. Pierre would be about 20 knots for one sea day, and St. Pierre to Portland would be about 22 knots for one sea day.  Whole lot of fuel.

[RuthC]

20 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Bar Harbor to St. Pierre would be about 20 knots for one sea day, and St. Pierre to Portland would be about 22 knots for one sea day.  Whole lot of fuel.

Thanks. Sounds like although it would work under the PVSA, it wouldn't work well economically. Would people be willing to pay enough to cover the fuel costs is a big question, especially now. 

[Two4Sea]

Regarding St. Pierre & Miquelon,

-What are France's covid rules for US visitors?

-For covid purposes SP&M residents have been able to continue their privilege of local travel to and from Canada almost as if they were Canadians. Connecting themselves with another country could impact that.

 

Bill

[BRWolf]

16 hours ago, Two4Sea said:

Regarding St. Pierre & Miquelon,

-What are France's covid rules for US visitors?

-For covid purposes SP&M residents have been able to continue their privilege of local travel to and from Canada almost as if they were Canadians. Connecting themselves with another country could impact that.

 

Bill

Also, there may be a supply issue.  When speculating about possible eastern US ports to replace Canadian ports, our PCC mentioned  the need for a resupply infrastructure.  There may not be one in St. Pierre & Miquelon.  So, could any vessel carry three days worth of supplies - sea day to the islands, one day there, sea day return - to make these islands a viable destination?  I sure hope so. They seem to be a worthy destination.  If we can't do Boston to Montreal in May, 2021, we'll take the proposed alternate itinerary.

[richwmn]

23 minutes ago, BRWolf said:

Also, there may be a supply issue.  When speculating about possible eastern US ports to replace Canadian ports, our PCC mentioned  the need for a resupply infrastructure.

Ships go 4 and 5 days without a port regularly. San Diego to Hawaii is 4 both ways. I believe Vancouver to Hawaii was 5. Transatlantics can be 4 or 5 days. Also, ships do not resupply at all ports.

edit:

I just checked - my Vancouver to Hawaii was scheduled to be 6 days at sea but ended up being 5 due to a medical problem.

Edited September 10, 2020 by richwmn

[chengkp75]

Ships doing a 7 day itinerary typically carry at least 10 days of provisions, those on longer cruises will carry more, and practice more stringent conservation practices, but ships can go 2-3 weeks without storing, if they have to.

[rafinmd]

A number of questions for Chengkp75, mostly on topic but one off.

 

1. A Jones act question inspired by the Amsterdam luggage.  The Gulf Bridge sailed down the California coast on it's way from Korea to Galveston.  If she had popped into San Diego on her way south and picked up a container in San Diego, then visited Cartagena on the way to Galveston could she have dropped off the container in Galveston even though it had not been off the ship.  That's something that's legal under the PVSA; is that a difference between the 2 laws?

2. Do you know of any passenger ships that can legally pick up passengers on the west coast and deposit them in Hawaii without visiting a distant foreign port.  It's not permitted for Pride of America under it's exemption, and virtually all US Flag passenger ships are too small and not designed for open ocean travel.  The only possibilities I can think of are a couple of the Alaska ferries, the Tustemena and the Kennicott.  Do you know of any others?

3. Even if the Eastern ports were open and a northeast cruise was possible with St. Pierre/Miquelon that would be a tender port.  Would being unable to tender at the sole foreign port be a problem?

 

Thanks

Roy

[chengkp75]

6 minutes ago, rafinmd said:

A number of questions for Chengkp75, mostly on topic but one off.

 

1. A Jones act question inspired by the Amsterdam luggage.  The Gulf Bridge sailed down the California coast on it's way from Korea to Galveston.  If she had popped into San Diego on her way south and picked up a container in San Diego, then visited Cartagena on the way to Galveston could she have dropped off the container in Galveston even though it had not been off the ship.  That's something that's legal under the PVSA; is that a difference between the 2 laws?

2. Do you know of any passenger ships that can legally pick up passengers on the west coast and deposit them in Hawaii without visiting a distant foreign port.  It's not permitted for Pride of America under it's exemption, and virtually all US Flag passenger ships are too small and not designed for open ocean travel.  The only possibilities I can think of are a couple of the Alaska ferries, the Tustemena and the Kennicott.  Do you know of any others?

3. Even if the Eastern ports were open and a northeast cruise was possible with St. Pierre/Miquelon that would be a tender port.  Would being unable to tender at the sole foreign port be a problem?

 

Thanks

Roy

1.  No, that container, if it had not been offloaded in a foreign port, would not be legal under the Jones Act.  And, as far as the Jones Act is concerned, and what many people don't understand, is that to be a US flag ship, you do not have to be built in the US, but a US flag ship that is not built in the US cannot participate in the Jones Act trade.  For instance, Tote Maritime has US flag, US built ships that carry cargo from the West Coast to Alaska.  However, Maersk Lines operates a number of US flag container and tanker vessels (17 container, 2 tanker, and 3 RO/RO) that were built foreign, and therefore cannot participate in the Jones Act trade, but they are eligible for US cargo preference cargoes going overseas.

2.  No.

3.  I believe that a ship like the Vista class or R class could dock in St. Pierre, but yes, it would require tenders from the dock to the inner harbor.  Yes, failure to tender at the sole foreign port would be a problem, CBP has generally granted exemptions to PVSA due to weather problems, but with that being the sole foreign port, I wouldn't count on them granting the exemption.

[drowelf]

9 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

Ships doing a 7 day itinerary typically carry at least 10 days of provisions, those on longer cruises will carry more, and practice more stringent conservation practices, but ships can go 2-3 weeks without storing, if they have to.

Yeah, 

 

When we did a 19 Day SA on the Zaandam, I don't recall seeing any supplies being taken on at ports along the way. I was really excited when we docked in Ushuaia there were crates of Chilean Sea Bass stacked on the deck. I was hoping that it would be for us for a nice MDR dinner on the way to the Antarctic, but alas, it was not, it was going on the expedition ship docked in front of us. 

[sail7seas]

On 9/8/2020 at 10:01 PM, sfocruiser said:

How About

 

• Boston
• Bar Harbor
• Day at sea
• St. Pierre and Miquelon
• Day at Sea
• Portland
• Newport
• Boston

 

 

 

Noooooooooooooo,  sorry  but, it would only make sense if you choose  to sail north OR   south.........  you have the ship going both in 7 days.

 

What about Quebec City? ,    big favorite for many people who book Canada/NE cruises.

not good choices IMO,

 

I have  sailed Canada NE at least 12 + times and most  were b-tob...

 

 

 

 

[rkacruiser]

10 hours ago, BRWolf said:

our PCC mentioned  the need for a resupply infrastructure.  There may not be one in St. Pierre & Miquelon.  So, could any vessel carry three days worth of supplies - sea day to the islands, one day there, sea day return - to make these islands a viable destination?  

 

Is this another example of a PCC who has never cruised and has little idea about which he/she speaks? 

 

BRWolf, when cruising begins again and if the opportunity presents itself on your ship, please seriously consider the expenditure of money to book a Behind the Scenes Tour.  During part of your tour, you will see huge storerooms below decks.  Some are for dry goods.  Some for refrigerated foods.  Some for frozen foods.  Some for fish/seafood and some for meats; some for just fruits and vegetables.  There is even a cooler for flowers (that can be used as a morgue if need be).  There is even a storeroom for alcoholic and soft drink products.  

 

I read a report today that Carnival Ecstasy completed a round the world voyage to repatriate crew members to their home countries.  That would require multiple days at sea without being able to be re-supplied or re-fueled.  If such a vessel could accomplish such, a vessel of Holland America Lines would have no difficulty doing that as well.  

 

One can learn so much from Behind the Scenes Tours!

[Himself]

On 9/7/2020 at 10:38 PM, Cruisin Kay D said:

What will happen if Canada doesn't open its borders in 2021 for cruises that begin or end in Quebec, Montreal, Vancouver?  And also including stops in places like Victoria, Halifax, Sydney etc?   

We are supposed to be on Zaandam mid-April for the repositioning from Ft. Lauderdale to Montreal for the Canada-New Engl sailings.    Since it is departing from Ft. Lauderdale, is it conceivable that the "foreign port" could be Bahamas or Bermuda if Canada still closed, and cruise would skip Canada cities and could end in Boston.  OR guessing HA would be likely to have to cancel us.   Anyone have any thoughts?   

 

Lets hope they open up.  Not only for cruisers but for those on land who depent on cruisers for their living.

[sail7seas]

Portland , Halifax ,  and   Newport could provide any stores the ship might need. 

 

Bar Harbor is a tender port   in a 'smallish' harbor,  not ideal for provisioning.

 

Charlottetown  (PEI) is a  really good por t My late dh and I always looked forward to stopping there....

On 9/8/2020 at 10:36 PM, Seacruise said:

There was what I call a trial balloon floated a week or so back that Canada may not open up to cruise ships next spring/summer.
This was followed up later in the day with Cunard cancelling Alaska 2021 from Vancouver.
I suspect Cunard did this for many reasons as I doubt Asia will sail as promised. This would allow Cunard to reschedule the Queen Elizabeth in Europe and start selling those cruises now in stead of short notice or having to continue the refunds.

This was followed up by the Port Master in Victoria a few days later saying he has his doubts about ships in Victoria in 2021.

The borders will not open on September 21 as scheduled at this point due to the numbers in Washington State or many other border states. BC also today rolled back some of those things allowed to open.
Many in this part of the world don't see borders opening before 2021.

There is no way to know what will happen at this point.

 

This is all idle musing as the cruise ships, so far as I know, have not yet been cleared to sail  

asto willCanada permit cruise ships in their ports?

 

No>...   until they need or want    something.   politicians are all the same.

Until,  there is some serious 'need' 

 

cynical  much  ?  🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by sail7seas

[kazu]

18 minutes ago, sail7seas said:

until they need or want    something.   politicians are all the same.

Until,  there is some serious 'need' 

 

cynical  much  ?  🙂

 

Yup pretty cynical 😉 

Canada is simply using health protocols like most countries are all over the world.

It has nothing to do with politics.  Believe me it is in our best interest to have our borders open, but safety first is the priority here 😉. And that is what our politicians are working on in a mostly non partisan way and for the good of those of us who live here.

they blew it at the beginning with the retirement homes, etc., but they learned fast and are listening to the scientists.  That’s all anyone can do right now.

[iancal]

There is no point in wondering  if Canadian ports will be open.
 

It will no doubt depend on covid conditions six months from now.

 

if you want a better answer...check your crystal ball or your ouiji board.  Both will be as accurate as any other prediction

 

There is only one given.  If Canadian ports are closed cruise ships will not be accepted.  Anything else is a guess.

Edited September 11, 2020 by iancal

[JRG]

On 9/9/2020 at 2:46 AM, chengkp75 said:

And it would likely require a major shift in their business model, since the cruise lines know that any trade off in getting their ships into the PVSA trade would likely entail meeting the stricter USCG regulations for US flag vessels,

 

Yes, I totally agree.  And this was the basis for my point on this subject some time ago,

 

I believe there is a possibility we may see such a shift in the business model.

[AtlantaCruiser72]

2 hours ago, iancal said:

There is no point in wondering  if Canadian ports will be open.
 

It will no doubt depend on covid conditions six months from now.

 

if you want a better answer...check your crystal ball or your ouiji board.  Both will be as accurate as any other prediction

 

There is only one given.  If Canadian ports are closed cruise ships will not be accepted.  Anything else is a guess.

I prefer to use my magic8ball - the answers are far more ridiculous and right now far more accurate!

[ontheweb]

9 hours ago, JRG said:

 

Yes, I totally agree.  And this was the basis for my point on this subject some time ago,

 

I believe there is a possibility we may see such a shift in the business model.

Since the cruises without a foreign port would violate the PVSA and the cruises to nowhere would also be a violation of law unless the entire crew has a much more expensive type of visa, there would have to more than a change in the business model; there would have to be changes in the law.

 

Even if the cruise lines wanted this and lobbied for these changes, do you really think that they would be any sort of priority for Congress to act upon?