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When Will We Feel Safe to Cruise Again

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2 hours ago, pms4104 said:

That's why they are going to sell another $1 billion in stock to raise cash?

 

CCL is obviously in distress and digging a big hole of debt.

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12 minutes ago, resistk said:

 

You think they are getting cash or IOUs?  I think the latter, it is an accounting trick.  Who is paying cash for 15 year old ships?

No need to guess. Carnival is a public corporation and this will be part of its ongoing financial disclosures.

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7 hours ago, voljeep said:

 do any of us posting here have any inside connections to what Princess and other cruise lines are doing in the background other than the releases they want us to receive

 

 

Not any inside connections, but....

 

Today there was a “Future of Cruising" Zoom meeting. The two cruise industry representatives were Ron Guiaskey of Celebrity (part of Royal Caribbean Group) and Gordon Dirker of Celestyal Cruises, a Greece based cruise company.
 
This was not a canned presentation, but after some opening statements, was a session giving responses to questions by the Zoom participants.
 
o CLIA and the CDC are working together to set up standards for resuming cruises from USA ports. Most of the affected cruise lines have already given their proposed plans to the CDC. The standards will be minimum standards.
 
o Celestyal does not expect to restart cruising until March. Ron said that he expects cruising to restart near the end of November or early December, but did not indicate which cruise line(s) he was referring to.
 
o Cruise ship cleaning on turnaround day has always been extensive, but there will be additional work done due to Covid-19. Staggered boarding times are expected to be imposed.
 
o Rapid result testing is a “game changer” allowing testing at the pier and not requiring passengers to get tested on their own several days before the cruise.  Since, at least for the USA, there is expected to be a number of people who will not get a vaccination once it is available, this on-site testing might allow the cruise lines to not require proof of vaccination in order to cruise, but it is too soon to know for sure.
 
o Royal Caribbean Group already had announced their “virtual muster” which eliminates the need to everyone to gather in crowded areas at the start of the cruise for the muster drill.
 
o Ron indicated that the first four months of cruising may see passenger loads limited to between 50% and 65% of capacity. Because Celestyal usually has a large number of solo travelers, they often sail at that lower capacity anyway.
 
o Royal Caribbean Group expects initial cruises to be for 7 or less nights. Celestyal offers 3, 4, and 7 night itineraries.
 
o Buffets will continue to exist with no reduction in offerings, but with crew doing all the serving.
 
o Many hotels on land now do not clean a room during your stay unless you request it. Cruise lines may start asking passengers in each cabin how often they want their cabins serviced.
 
o The initial reduced capacity will help with the necessary physical distancing in restaurants and at shows.
 
o Referring to the MSC experience with limiting going ashore only with ship sponsored excursions, they said they are looking at this, at least at the beginning when cruising resumes. 
 
o Crew will be under the same going on shore restrictions as passengers.
 
o Although the first ships out of the USA may include private islands where the cruise line has control of the environment, that is not a Celebrity thing.
 
o Ron indicated that with the bonus FCCs given for cancelled cruises, many are booking the replacement cruises at a higher cabin category. Also indicated that with the demand being experienced so far for next year’s bookings, people should not wait for big sales that probably will not occur.
 
o People denied boarding due to positive Covid-19 tests would get full refunds. Part of the plans submitted to the CDC includes how to take care of passengers denied boarding as far as isolating them until they can return home and also arranging for that return.
 
o Plans submitted to the CDC also include what to do if there is an outbreak on board to avoid having the entire ship quarantined for a period of time or not allowed to go to an appropriate convenient port. 
 
o Cruise ships are a safer environment than staying at a hotel on land. In a hotel you are probably leaving the hotel and interacting with the local population as well as being near a changing population of hotel guests. Hotels at best may do a temperature check, but never do any rapid Covid-19 testing.
 
o Public restrooms on the ships will probably stay open, but with an enhanced cleaning schedule.
 
o Airlines are flying with passengers and so far have had no outbreaks attributed to flying. If planes are OK, then cruise ships should be even better.
 
o It should become clearer in the next two to three weeks if existing itineraries can still be maintained on the first few cruises still on the schedule when cruising resumes.

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Thank you for the update. The above is a very well thought out step-by-step process in tackling many of the COVID issues. It gives me confidence that cruising will indeed be possible for US sometime in 2021.

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13 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Not any inside connections, but....

 

Today there was a “Future of Cruising" Zoom meeting. The two cruise industry representatives were Ron Guiaskey of Celebrity (part of Royal Caribbean Group) and Gordon Dirker of Celestyal Cruises, a Greece based cruise company.
 
This was not a canned presentation, but after some opening statements, was a session giving responses to questions by the Zoom participants.
 
o CLIA and the CDC are working together to set up standards for resuming cruises from USA ports. Most of the affected cruise lines have already given their proposed plans to the CDC. The standards will be minimum standards.
 
o Celestyal does not expect to restart cruising until March. Ron said that he expects cruising to restart near the end of November or early December, but did not indicate which cruise line(s) he was referring to.
 
o Cruise ship cleaning on turnaround day has always been extensive, but there will be additional work done due to Covid-19. Staggered boarding times are expected to be imposed.
 
o Rapid result testing is a “game changer” allowing testing at the pier and not requiring passengers to get tested on their own several days before the cruise.  Since, at least for the USA, there is expected to be a number of people who will not get a vaccination once it is available, this on-site testing might allow the cruise lines to not require proof of vaccination in order to cruise, but it is too soon to know for sure.
 
o Royal Caribbean Group already had announced their “virtual muster” which eliminates the need to everyone to gather in crowded areas at the start of the cruise for the muster drill.
 
o Ron indicated that the first four months of cruising may see passenger loads limited to between 50% and 65% of capacity. Because Celestyal usually has a large number of solo travelers, they often sail at that lower capacity anyway.
 
o Royal Caribbean Group expects initial cruises to be for 7 or less nights. Celestyal offers 3, 4, and 7 night itineraries.
 
o Buffets will continue to exist with no reduction in offerings, but with crew doing all the serving.
 
o Many hotels on land now do not clean a room during your stay unless you request it. Cruise lines may start asking passengers in each cabin how often they want their cabins serviced.
 
o The initial reduced capacity will help with the necessary physical distancing in restaurants and at shows.
 
o Referring to the MSC experience with limiting going ashore only with ship sponsored excursions, they said they are looking at this, at least at the beginning when cruising resumes. 
 
o Crew will be under the same going on shore restrictions as passengers.
 
o Although the first ships out of the USA may include private islands where the cruise line has control of the environment, that is not a Celebrity thing.
 
o Ron indicated that with the bonus FCCs given for cancelled cruises, many are booking the replacement cruises at a higher cabin category. Also indicated that with the demand being experienced so far for next year’s bookings, people should not wait for big sales that probably will not occur.
 
o People denied boarding due to positive Covid-19 tests would get full refunds. Part of the plans submitted to the CDC includes how to take care of passengers denied boarding as far as isolating them until they can return home and also arranging for that return.
 
o Plans submitted to the CDC also include what to do if there is an outbreak on board to avoid having the entire ship quarantined for a period of time or not allowed to go to an appropriate convenient port. 
 
o Cruise ships are a safer environment than staying at a hotel on land. In a hotel you are probably leaving the hotel and interacting with the local population as well as being near a changing population of hotel guests. Hotels at best may do a temperature check, but never do any rapid Covid-19 testing.
 
o Public restrooms on the ships will probably stay open, but with an enhanced cleaning schedule.
 
o Airlines are flying with passengers and so far have had no outbreaks attributed to flying. If planes are OK, then cruise ships should be even better.
 
o It should become clearer in the next two to three weeks if existing itineraries can still be maintained on the first few cruises still on the schedule when cruising resumes.

many thanks for the most excellent update - hope it goes as planning above ... hopefully, the next month will be promising for the resumption of cruising from the US ports in at least some fashion

 

will be following to see when PE/FLL makes any kind of announcements 

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15 hours ago, caribill said:

o Plans submitted to the CDC also include what to do if there is an outbreak on board to avoid having the entire ship quarantined for a period of time or not allowed to go to an appropriate convenient port. 

yes, that is a major area of concern.  

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No idea.  There  are still so many moving parts to this.  IMHO the notion that the vaccine arrives, everyone magically gets the vaccine withing a month, and all is well is more than a little naive.

 

Our guess is the vaccine available to all by end of Q2 or inside Q3.   Perhaps the cruise lines will insist on seeing a certificate of vaccination.  Even then, only time will tell how effective the vaccine really is.  We do not expect to buy or take any cruises until mid/late 2022.  We hope to resume independent international travel in late 2021 or 2022.

 

We have zero confidence in the cruise line's ability to place our personal safety and well being ahead of their financial interests.  We are just as concerned about the procedures that are evident to cruisers as we are about those on board procedures and checks that are not.  Their collective  record speaks for itself.

Edited by iancal

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Well folks we need to adapt 

whether you are desperate to cruise or not it is irrelevant. Right now it is not your decision or the cruise lines decision whether your cruise will go ahead 

so the frustration is all yours.

Until the virus is rendered harmless by either vaccine or cure you can keep  collecting your FCC’s .

This  virus is a killer 

No week on the water is worth the slaughter....

of you ,your wife , your family or any innocent person you come in contact with. I have no time for Covid deniers or cavalier attitudes from “ it won’t happen to me cruisers.”

 

It’s not about you, it’s about how many vulnerable people you may kill by not giving a hoot (or an F) about others.By not caring you.can kill your grandmother. Or someone else’s. 

Lets weather this storm and treat this as a WAR against a virus like an enemy that needs to be killed because it’s killing our loved ones indiscriminately.

We  can eradicate this thing. Country by country, continent by continent, anti vaccer by anti vaccer

 

 

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, caribill said:

 

Not any inside connections, but....

 

Today there was a “Future of Cruising" Zoom meeting. The two cruise industry representatives were Ron Guiaskey of Celebrity (part of Royal Caribbean Group) and Gordon Dirker of Celestyal Cruises, a Greece based cruise company.
 
This was not a canned presentation, but after some opening statements, was a session giving responses to questions by the Zoom participants.
 
o CLIA and the CDC are working together to set up standards for resuming cruises from USA ports. Most of the affected cruise lines have already given their proposed plans to the CDC. The standards will be minimum standards.
 
o Celestyal does not expect to restart cruising until March. Ron said that he expects cruising to restart near the end of November or early December, but did not indicate which cruise line(s) he was referring to.
 
o Cruise ship cleaning on turnaround day has always been extensive, but there will be additional work done due to Covid-19. Staggered boarding times are expected to be imposed.
 
o Rapid result testing is a “game changer” allowing testing at the pier and not requiring passengers to get tested on their own several days before the cruise.  Since, at least for the USA, there is expected to be a number of people who will not get a vaccination once it is available, this on-site testing might allow the cruise lines to not require proof of vaccination in order to cruise, but it is too soon to know for sure.
 
o Royal Caribbean Group already had announced their “virtual muster” which eliminates the need to everyone to gather in crowded areas at the start of the cruise for the muster drill.
 
o Ron indicated that the first four months of cruising may see passenger loads limited to between 50% and 65% of capacity. Because Celestyal usually has a large number of solo travelers, they often sail at that lower capacity anyway.
 
o Royal Caribbean Group expects initial cruises to be for 7 or less nights. Celestyal offers 3, 4, and 7 night itineraries.
 
o Buffets will continue to exist with no reduction in offerings, but with crew doing all the serving.
 
o Many hotels on land now do not clean a room during your stay unless you request it. Cruise lines may start asking passengers in each cabin how often they want their cabins serviced.
 
o The initial reduced capacity will help with the necessary physical distancing in restaurants and at shows.
 
o Referring to the MSC experience with limiting going ashore only with ship sponsored excursions, they said they are looking at this, at least at the beginning when cruising resumes. 
 
o Crew will be under the same going on shore restrictions as passengers.
 
o Although the first ships out of the USA may include private islands where the cruise line has control of the environment, that is not a Celebrity thing.
 
o Ron indicated that with the bonus FCCs given for cancelled cruises, many are booking the replacement cruises at a higher cabin category. Also indicated that with the demand being experienced so far for next year’s bookings, people should not wait for big sales that probably will not occur.
 
o People denied boarding due to positive Covid-19 tests would get full refunds. Part of the plans submitted to the CDC includes how to take care of passengers denied boarding as far as isolating them until they can return home and also arranging for that return.
 
o Plans submitted to the CDC also include what to do if there is an outbreak on board to avoid having the entire ship quarantined for a period of time or not allowed to go to an appropriate convenient port. 
 
o Cruise ships are a safer environment than staying at a hotel on land. In a hotel you are probably leaving the hotel and interacting with the local population as well as being near a changing population of hotel guests. Hotels at best may do a temperature check, but never do any rapid Covid-19 testing.
 
o Public restrooms on the ships will probably stay open, but with an enhanced cleaning schedule.
 
o Airlines are flying with passengers and so far have had no outbreaks attributed to flying. If planes are OK, then cruise ships should be even better.
 
o It should become clearer in the next two to three weeks if existing itineraries can still be maintained on the first few cruises still on the schedule when cruising resumes.

Was there a discussion about mandatory masks on passageways and other public areas ?

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Because of NOROVIRUS, Cruise lines literally set up Purell Stations at the buffet entrance and kept a simple line flowing.  Bathrooms were stocked with Purell Wipes after washing your hands to exit to ensure safety. Does anyone else remember?

Practicing safety has been a long going thing on Cruise Ships, but PEOPLE think themselves so special on vacation, they throw caution to the wind. Wash your hands!!!

And as soon as my MD has a shot for me, my arm or butt cheek is ready.

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I would just offer an observation.  Cruise ships have long done a great job when it comes to cleaning and disinfecting primarily because of their protocols to mitigate Norovirus.  For cruise lines to suggest even more cleaning as a means to mitigate COVID is somewhat disingenuous.    What do we know about COVID?  It is primarily spread through the air.  While the CDC (and other experts) acknowledge there is some risk (actually unknown and unproven) of surface spread it is the air spread (enhanced by coughing, sneezing, singing, etc) that seems to be the main risk.  So ships can clean all they want and it will do little to prevent COVID (but it might help prevent the dreaded Noro).   To prevent air to air contamination the ships need to enforce social distancing and promote mask wearing (some have argued that masks do little).   But social distancing on mass market vessels is very difficult to impossible unless capacity is limited (in a big way) and social distancing rules are rigidly enforced.  The reality is that cruise lines have never done a good job enforcing any rules aboard (just think of the usual problems with chair saving) and its hard to imagine crew actively chiding passengers for being to close to each other (or the crew).  

 

The existence of a safe/effective vaccine along with a compulsorily requirement that everyone aboard must have proof of being vaccinated is the only solution to the COVID problem on mass market ships.  I think much of the other ideas are mere window dressing.  And there is that other nagging issue of whether ports will be willing to reopen to ships.  And once a passenger goes ashore the risk of COVID expands (in a big way) and testing is worthless since no test will reveal very recent exposure.

 

The final issue that must be resolved is what happens when a ship discovers even a single COVID case aboard?  What happens to all the other souls aboard?   Where can the ship go?  How can the passengers get home?   Who pays for the possible quarantine of thousands of souls?   None of these questions go away as long as we have COVID without a safe/effective vaccine.  And of course there is that other huge question of whether we will EVER have a safe/effective vaccine?

 

Hank  

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23 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

I would just offer an observation.  Cruise ships have long done a great job when it comes to cleaning and disinfecting primarily because of their protocols to mitigate Norovirus.  For cruise lines to suggest even more cleaning as a means to mitigate COVID is somewhat disingenuous.    What do we know about COVID?  It is primarily spread through the air.  While the CDC (and other experts) acknowledge there is some risk (actually unknown and unproven) of surface spread it is the air spread (enhanced by coughing, sneezing, singing, etc) that seems to be the main risk.  So ships can clean all they want and it will do little to prevent COVID (but it might help prevent the dreaded Noro).   To prevent air to air contamination the ships need to enforce social distancing and promote mask wearing (some have argued that masks do little).  

 

Hank  

 

I have never once heard any expert in the health field argue that masks do little.  The only people I have heard say that are private citizens who do not want to wear masks.

 

Edited by stoneharborlady

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8 minutes ago, stoneharborlady said:

 

I have never once heard any expert in the health field argue that masks do little.

Really?  I would take you back to last winter when the CDC (and even Dr. Fauci) said masks were not only unnecessary but were dangerous!   And if you  are one who takes WHO serious then perhaps you missed this item from late March:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/coronavirus-who-masks-recommendation-trnd/index.html

 

How soon we all forget.  In fact, I live in Puerto Vallarta during the winter and flew home in mid-March.  At that time we were all being told that masks were "dangerous."  When I went through the immigration hall at DFW there were a few CDC Officials standing by and they were all wearing masks and PPG.  They stood next to the CBP staff, none of whom wore masks or gloves..even though they do face to face with nearly all travelers.  Just saying 🙂

 

I spent much of my adult lifetime working in the healthcare insurance sector and learned decades ago that folks tend to "selectively hear" what they want to hear and ignore much of what they do not want to hear.  And most folks have very short memories...especially when it comes to forgetting what does not fit their personal agendas and beliefs.  So when you say you "never once heard any expert argue that masks do little" you were either not listening or selectively dismissing what was widely said and reported.

 

Hank

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8 minutes ago, Hlitner said:

Really?  I would take you back to last winter when the CDC (and even Dr. Fauci) said masks were not only unnecessary but were dangerous!   And if you  are one who takes WHO serious then perhaps you missed this item from late March:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/coronavirus-who-masks-recommendation-trnd/index.html

 

How soon we all forget.  In fact, I live in Puerto Vallarta during the winter and flew home in mid-March.  At that time we were all being told that masks were "dangerous."  When I went through the immigration hall at DFW there were a few CDC Officials standing by and they were all wearing masks and PPG.  They stood next to the CBP staff, none of whom wore masks or gloves..even though they do face to face with nearly all travelers.  Just saying 🙂

 

I spent much of my adult lifetime working in the healthcare insurance sector and learned decades ago that folks tend to "selectively hear" what they want to hear and ignore much of what they do not want to hear.  And most folks have very short memories...especially when it comes to forgetting what does not fit their personal agendas and beliefs.  So when you say you "never once heard any expert argue that masks do little" you were either not listening or selectively dismissing what was widely said and reported.

 

Hank

of course at they time they made those comments about masks the view was that it was a virus that spread mostly from large droplets and surface contamination. in that environment the key to avoidance is clean hands, avoid touching face to avoid contamination. in that case the concern is over possible contamination by adjusting mask, taking it off and putting it back on etc.

 

that all changed as they learned more about the virus and discovered that it is mostly transferred by air and not by surface contamination.

 

so instead of going back to the start the question should be which scientists have stated that masks are dangerous since the transfer mechanism was better understood to be mostly air  not surface transfer.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, npcl said:

of course at they time they made those comments about masks the view was that it was a virus that spread mostly from large droplets and surface contamination. in that environment the key to avoidance is clean hands, avoid touching face to avoid contamination. in that case the concern is over possible contamination by adjusting mask, taking it off and putting it back on etc.

 

that all changed as they learned more about the virus and discovered that it is mostly transferred by air and not by surface contamination.

 

so instead of going back to the start the question should be which scientists have stated that masks are dangerous since the transfer mechanism was better understood to be mostly air  not surface transfer.

 

 

You love to preach to the choir :).  Keep in mind I was responding to another post where the person said they NEVER heard a expert in the healthcare field argue against masks.   

 

And your comment about air transfer (with which I completely agree) seems to be not heard by cruise lines (and airlines) who think the COVID answer is to clean clean clean.  My question to any cruise line is "how are you going to deal with the elevator problem?"  You might have noticed that nobody in the industry has addressed this problem.

 

Hank

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1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

Really?  I would take you back to last winter when the CDC (and even Dr. Fauci) said masks were not only unnecessary but were dangerous!   And if you  are one who takes WHO serious then perhaps you missed this item from late March:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/30/world/coronavirus-who-masks-recommendation-trnd/index.html

 

How soon we all forget.  In fact, I live in Puerto Vallarta during the winter and flew home in mid-March.  At that time we were all being told that masks were "dangerous."  When I went through the immigration hall at DFW there were a few CDC Officials standing by and they were all wearing masks and PPG.  They stood next to the CBP staff, none of whom wore masks or gloves..even though they do face to face with nearly all travelers.  Just saying 🙂

 

I spent much of my adult lifetime working in the healthcare insurance sector and learned decades ago that folks tend to "selectively hear" what they want to hear and ignore much of what they do not want to hear.  And most folks have very short memories...especially when it comes to forgetting what does not fit their personal agendas and beliefs.  So when you say you "never once heard any expert argue that masks do little" you were either not listening or selectively dismissing what was widely said and reported.

 

Hank

I never heard  it said that masks were dangerous.  I did hear, like you, last January, that masks were desperately needed by medical workers, and we should not worry about buying them.  Of course, since then, much study has proven that they are a front line against the disease.  I am talking about now,  medical experts say this is an important way to protect onself against the disease. As you do not know me, I am amazed that you know so much about what I think and know.  By the way, I stand by what I said.  I have not heard, ever said by anyone., that masks do little.  Only that they were needed for medical workers.  I also do not have a "personal agenda", except keeping myself and my loved ones from contracting this virus.  I expect that most people share that "agenda".
 

Edited by stoneharborlady

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I believe that the cruise lines will purposely ignore certain issues. Or downplay them.  Elevators, staffing challenges, etc. 

 

 The end result will be placing their customers health and well being at risk.  I have no doubt that the cruise lines, on start up,  will have razor sharp focus on revenue and profit at the expense of everything else. No different than some of their performance leading up to covid.   

 

It continues to amaze me about how much so called 'trust' some cruisers place in their favorite cruise lines.  It is as though they are valued family members and not for profit multinational corporations.

 

We intend to wait for quite some time before even considering our next cruise.  At least unit mid/late 2022.

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1 hour ago, Hlitner said:

You love to preach to the choir :).  Keep in mind I was responding to another post where the person said they NEVER heard a expert in the healthcare field argue against masks.   

 

And your comment about air transfer (with which I completely agree) seems to be not heard by cruise lines (and airlines) who think the COVID answer is to clean clean clean.  My question to any cruise line is "how are you going to deal with the elevator problem?"  You might have noticed that nobody in the industry has addressed this problem.

 

Hank

the only way the cruise lines can effectively deal with Covid is to keep it off the ship entirely. That will require low infection rate in the source population, coupled with intensive testing. Even then sooner or later a case will make it on board. So they will have to be prepared to take action, anytime there is even a hint of a case on board. Something the cruise lines do not a good track record of doing. intensive testing, taking the ship out of service for a quarantine period while intensively testing and isolating the crew.

 

there is a difference with the airlines. the airflow is top of cabin to floor, then passed through hepa filters. a fairly high number of air exchanges. with masks pretty safe. one can also adjust the air vent above their seat to full volume and  aim the flow at their face to help reduce the odds even further.

 

lots of data on aircraft from a number of types of illness as well as particle distributions. 

 

 

Edited by npcl

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56 minutes ago, iancal said:

I believe that the cruise lines will purposely ignore certain issues. Or downplay them.  Elevators, staffing challenges, etc. 

 

 The end result will be placing their customers health and well being at risk.  I have no doubt that the cruise lines, on start up,  will have razor sharp focus on revenue and profit at the expense of everything else. No different than some of their performance leading up to covid.   

 

It continues to amaze me about how much so called 'trust' some cruisers place in their favorite cruise lines.  It is as though they are valued family members and not for profit multinational corporations.

 

We intend to wait for quite some time before even considering our next cruise.  At least unit mid/late 2022.

the cruise lines are doing PR, and hoping they can convince people. 

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47 minutes ago, stoneharborlady said:

I never heard  it said that masks were dangerous.  I did hear, like you, last January, that masks were desperately needed by medical workers, and we should not worry about buying them.  Of course, since then, much study has proven that they are a front line against the disease.  I am talking about now,  medical experts say this is an important way to protect onself against the disease. As you do not know me, I am amazed that you know so much about what I think and know.  By the way, I stand by what I said.  I have not heard, ever said by anyone., that masks do little.  Only that they were needed for medical workers.  I also do not have a "personal agenda", except keeping myself and my loved ones from contracting this virus.  I expect that most people share that "agenda".
 

I am an information junkie and love to read all different viewpoints.  I also have a longer memory then many since I remember things like when Dr Fauci said (January 21) that Coronavirus was not a "major threat" to the USA.  As to the issue of facemasks (and I will again make it clear I do wear a mask when in public situations) there is were a lot of authorities who talked about the danger of wearing masks.  Just to make the point here is a recent story about the opinion of a respected Neurosurgeon:

https://www.technocracy.news/blaylock-face-masks-pose-serious-risks-to-the-healthy/

 

When some folks say "follow the science" what they really mean is "follow the science that supports my own opinion."  The truth is that you can find so-called scientific opinions to support just about anything.  In my younger days science was about proving, through the scientific method' a theorem.    These days you hear terms like "scientific consensus" which is not science at all but merely a popularity contest.  Real science is not about "consensus" but about proof!   One great medical situation of "consensus vs proof" was that for ages the medical world accepted that gastric ulcers were caused by excess stomach acid.  When an Australian physician "scientifically proved" that many stomach ulcers were caused by bacteria (H Pylori) he was met with lots of skepticism within the so-called scientific community who preferred to believe "consensus" rather then real scientific proof.  When I worked with HIV/AIDs programs back in the 80s you would not believe the BS I heard that was attributed to "scientific consensus."  

 

So what is the truth about masks and COVID?  I have no clue but have seen some studies (not peer reviewed) that question the wisdom of using most non-medical masks.  N95s and KN95s seem to be helpful but a lot of the non medical stuff seems to be open to real debate.

 

Hank

 

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8 hours ago, Daniel A said:

Was there a discussion about mandatory masks on passageways and other public areas ?

 

It was not mentioned.

 

If it had been asked, I suspect the answer would have been it is too early to know.

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My understanding from current MSC model is that mask is required in enclosed space but not open areas like outdoor pool area or promenade deck so long as social distancing rule is followed.

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On 9/18/2020 at 5:56 PM, Hlitner said:

So what is the truth about masks and COVID?  I have no clue but have seen some studies (not peer reviewed) that question the wisdom of using most non-medical masks.  N95s and KN95s seem to be helpful but a lot of the non medical stuff seems to be open to real debate.

 

 

Here's my field report.

 

Pre-covid, I bought a box (50x) of 3-layer procedural masks for C$16.80 from a medical supply shop. On the box, it said 'Bacterial Filtration Efficiency averages 99.3% at 2.7 micron. Viral Filtration Efficiency averages 98.9% at 2.8 micron'.

 

So, the medical-grade 3-layer masks are almost as good as the N95. I've used these masks (N95, KN95 and 3-layer) and I have no problem breathing when I'm strolling.

 

The advantage to the public of the 3-layer masks is that they are not meant to be sealed against the face. Air can escape around the edges of the mask. When I get physical, I can feel air being sucked in and expelled around the edges. No shortage of oxygen.

 

The N95 masks are meant to be used in high risk situations, while the 3-layer masks are an effective compromise for general purposes.

 

Of course, cloth masks vary greatly in material and efficiency. In general, the easier it is to breathe through the mask, the less protection you get. The harder it is to breathe through the mask, the less oxygen you receive.

 

For these reasons, I prefer the disposable 3-layer masks. As prices start to drop rapidly for the 3-layer masks, it makes sense to use the disposable masks.

 

As long as you source the masks from a reputable source. As prices have leaped, new manufacturers are producing 3-layer masks without performance guarantees. Hopefully, they're using the right materials with the correct construction.

 

 

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Many good discussions above . A few things to ponder . The alcohol stations that cruise lines use when entering the eating areas DO NOT prevent Norovirus .It takes  Clorox  wipes . Clorox is the only agent that kills the Norovirus bug 

 

 Imo the cruise lines have a long way to go to guarantee safe passage  .What has not been discussed is how does the air handling equipment prevent the virus from spreading from cabin to cabin & p;ace to place 

 

 Yes many unanswered questions . For us it is most obvious that we must protect ourselves with a vaccination that truly is effective  & who is to say that there can be mutations of the covid 19 las there has already been one mutation  .Yes & yes there are many unanswered questions .Thus ,for us the earliest we think we can savely cruise is not until our Jan 2022 cruise & we are hoping we are right  do we can cruise 

 

  

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4 hours ago, mcrcruiser said:

guarantee safe passage 

that will NEVER happen if that will be required before cruising starts again for anyone

 

guarantee and demand ...😷 🍻

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