healthy sail panel recommendations are released

[Arizona Wildcat]

2 hours ago, cangelmd said:

My guess is that the cruise line will eventually make an arrangement with a nationwide lab like Quest or LabCorp and “provide” the test for you. You will get a document with you other check in documents that shows the applicable date range for the test to be acceptable. The results would go directly to the cruise line and maybe to you, or perhaps a “no news is good news” policy -  hope they would let you know because of mixups. 
As a pathologist whose been working on this, a PCR 4-5 days out followed by a rapid test at boarding is pretty good - that’s as good or better than we are doing for pre-ops, and we have been In a high risk area. It would work even better if they retested everyone in rolling groups, or at least included passengers in the random surveillance- if that was in the document I missed it. Don’t confuse diagnosis with prevention of spread. As it said in the document, these are layers of risk mitigation, no one step is perfect. SNFs and assisted living are doing similar protocols and a spokesman for the CDC compared the living density on a cruise ship to a nursing home (not the age, don’t start!).

Availability of testing is definitely a factor, but it goes up every day. Part of the issue now is that we don’t test in the US without a doctors order, and no one wants to pay for it, all of that can be worked around, but someone has to pay for it, and there has to be informed consent. With testing in schools we are starting to develop more of a surveillance system rather than a diagnostic system.

As for the millions of tests, we are talking about 100K at most to start, millions of cruisers won’t be happening until there is a vaccine.

A question please.  Since cruising is an international activity, how; would as was asked before, get a test for a cruise that begins in say Barcelona?  We always fly in a week or two early.  How would those who live outside the US obtain testing?  An example is friends who live in Argentina and fly to Miami ahead of their cruise.  A test in Argentina would be difficult to obtain with results and in the US confusing at best.

This will probably resolve over time as testing becomes more available but seems wrought with problems today.

[Spif Barwunkel]

Prior to embarkation each passenger would be required to attest their adherence to and compliance with all requirements. Failure to do so will result in denial of boarding. I saw nothing pertinent to consequences relevant to non-compliance once onboard the ship. Perhaps the panel did not want to rile the paying people. I wonder how that's going to work.

[bigwawao]

hello everyone,  I read CC but seldom post. I'm more at the sister forum at Tripadvisor.

I wonder why there is NO clear recommendation on reducing capacity to enable or enhance social distancing.  Is it because the paymasters had, in July I believe, mentioned that they always sail with full ships?

 

Also the wording on page 5 about " whether proposed recommendations could be operationally feasible. "  mean they are loosening some recommendations at the behest of their paymasters...

 

pcr swab test of our patients for surgery- results come back in a few hours.  So possible to do this (msc is doing this I believe- as part of their secondary testing if their rapid test is positive) but how to get it into the leisure world is a problem.

 

random temperature checks should be implemented.  

Face mask- always mentioned everywhere not just in the recommendations but in society.  But what they fail to say is face masks worn PROPERLY.

 

A subset of society have discovered that covid is transmitted thru the chin and placed the mask accordingly.

 

How many news clips have we read about passengers taking off or refusing to put their mask on in airplanes- even going so far as to assault the airline employee.   A bodega employee was recently slapped by a customer here in NYC after being told to put on a mask.

 

I do not see enough recommendations of what the cruise line is supposed to do if the passenger breaks the rules and how many times is too much.

 

Type of mask counts too.  Those with exhalation ports should not be allowed.

 

The panel forgets that they are dealing with american guests.  Sorry to say,  but we are a very undisciplined bunch.  Very hard headed.  That is why corona is here to stay.

 

Just got off a post covid cruise- on a lake.  2 hours.  Made me wish for the real thing.  50% published capacity- ship was very loose. Boarding and deboarding was easy due to reduced passengers.  Buffet was served.  And a big sign says. NO Mask NO service.  Constant announcement of mask required except for eating and drinking.

For me,  I would take the given steps that MSC have done ( and it seems the healthy sail panel has copied and modified subject to " operational feasability ") to go on a ship again.

 

Next line is in all probability MSC.  I'm not impressed with NCL- my current and only line sailed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jelayne]

3 hours ago, SHIP TRAVELER said:

I agree shuffling down the aisle of a bus containing 48 other people all jammed together does not sound good to me. 

Paying outrageous prices to be herded like cattle does not help make the picture rosy. 

We like to go ashore and find a colorful bar, chat with the bar tender and try a local beer.  We have done this in nearly every port we have ever visited. We even did this twice in Russia without any local money.

I guess that will not be happening any time soon..

I doubt the excursions will be the full buses of the past.  From what I have read
the cruises that have started in Europe are offering more outdoor excursions  (Hiking,  bike tours,  walking tours)  with fewer participants. Time will tell but I think bus may be large but it will have far fewer passengers.

[cangelmd]

40 minutes ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

A question please.  Since cruising is an international activity, how; would as was asked before, get a test for a cruise that begins in say Barcelona?  We always fly in a week or two early.  How would those who live outside the US obtain testing?  An example is friends who live in Argentina and fly to Miami ahead of their cruise.  A test in Argentina would be difficult to obtain with results and in the US confusing at best.

This will probably resolve over time as testing becomes more available but seems wrought with problems today.

Good question, who knows?

 I half think they are just trying to come up with some reasonable mitigation efforts to use to begin cruising when vaccines are first announced, to allow the lines to tread water (pun intended) while they wait for enough people to get vaccinated that life returns closer to normal.

if for some reason vaccine doesn’t work or is delayed, they will be in big trouble.

[phoenix_dream]

2 hours ago, npcl said:

I certainly agree with the advance pcr, coupled with quick test at boarding would be best.

 

 

But if it’s being compared to doing it pre-op as in the preceding post (and I’m not in the medical field  but I assume that means prior to surgery?), do you not then ask the patient to self quarantine until the procedure?  That’s what I’m being required to do for my upcoming colonoscopy.  Nothing like that can be done for travelers. A huge difference in my opinion.

[markeb]

50 minutes ago, phoenix_dream said:

But if it’s being compared to doing it pre-op as in the preceding post (and I’m not in the medical field  but I assume that means prior to surgery?), do you not then ask the patient to self quarantine until the procedure?  That’s what I’m being required to do for my upcoming colonoscopy.  Nothing like that can be done for travelers. A huge difference in my opinion.

 

That's been somewhat variable. Self-quarantine would definitely be the ideal, but I had a pre-procedure screen over the summer that turned into a {expletive deleted} show at admission because the ward changed its timelines! Had to go to the ER and be swabbed again for a rapid PCR to get on the ward for my procedure. No idea what would have happened if it had been same day.

 

There are a lot of questions to be answered here. Honestly, I've got risk factors, my next cruise is in 2022, and if some of this doesn't get figured out, we won't be going. While I see the mask data and believe it's effective for necessary activities, I just don't know that relying on my fellow passengers, concert goers (struggling with a small venue show next month), etc. to effectively protect me is realistic. We'll see.

[Plum Happy]

9 hours ago, bigwawao said:

hello everyone,  I read CC but seldom post. I'm more at the sister forum at Tripadvisor.

I wonder why there is NO clear recommendation on reducing capacity to enable or enhance social distancing.  Is it because the paymasters had, in July I believe, mentioned that they always sail with full ships?

 

Also the wording on page 5 about " whether proposed recommendations could be operationally feasible. "  mean they are loosening some recommendations at the behest of their paymasters...

 

pcr swab test of our patients for surgery- results come back in a few hours.  So possible to do this (msc is doing this I believe- as part of their secondary testing if their rapid test is positive) but how to get it into the leisure world is a problem.

 

random temperature checks should be implemented.  

Face mask- always mentioned everywhere not just in the recommendations but in society.  But what they fail to say is face masks worn PROPERLY.

 

A subset of society have discovered that covid is transmitted thru the chin and placed the mask accordingly.

 

How many news clips have we read about passengers taking off or refusing to put their mask on in airplanes- even going so far as to assault the airline employee.   A bodega employee was recently slapped by a customer here in NYC after being told to put on a mask.

 

I do not see enough recommendations of what the cruise line is supposed to do if the passenger breaks the rules and how many times is too much.

 

Type of mask counts too.  Those with exhalation ports should not be allowed.

 

The panel forgets that they are dealing with american guests.  Sorry to say,  but we are a very undisciplined bunch.  Very hard headed.  That is why corona is here to stay.

 

Just got off a post covid cruise- on a lake.  2 hours.  Made me wish for the real thing.  50% published capacity- ship was very loose. Boarding and deboarding was easy due to reduced passengers.  Buffet was served.  And a big sign says. NO Mask NO service.  Constant announcement of mask required except for eating and drinking.

For me,  I would take the given steps that MSC have done ( and it seems the healthy sail panel has copied and modified subject to " operational feasability ") to go on a ship again.

 

Next line is in all probability MSC.  I'm not impressed with NCL- my current and only line sailed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Healthy Sail panel covers all cruise lines, where you see Cruise line will implement.... they will submit responses separately to the CDC's request as well, this according to Royal Caribbean CEO Michael Bailey.  They will be submitting for all of the the ships that cover RCL Group in an interview with Gene Sloan at the Points Guy.

 

https://thepointsguy.com/news/royal-caribbean-cruise-comeback-plans/

 

Bayley talked to TPG just hours after a “healthy sail” panel established by Royal Caribbean’s parent company, Royal Caribbean Group, and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings sent the CDC a list of 74 things that cruise lines could do to prevent the spread of the new coronavirus on ships. The list included requiring that passengers get COVID-19 tests before sailings, social distance on ships and wear masks at times on ships.

 

Royal Caribbean also soon will be submitting its own related plan for a cruising comeback.

 

“Our hope, of course, is that the panel’s recommendations will be reviewed and accepted by the CDC, and [Royal Caribbean’s] detailed protocols, which will be submitted in the coming days, will complement that and will be reviewed and accepted,” Bayley said.

Edited September 22, 2020 by Plum Happy

[cangelmd]

9 hours ago, phoenix_dream said:

But if it’s being compared to doing it pre-op as in the preceding post (and I’m not in the medical field  but I assume that means prior to surgery?), do you not then ask the patient to self quarantine until the procedure?  That’s what I’m being required to do for my upcoming colonoscopy.  Nothing like that can be done for travelers. A huge difference in my opinion.

You do ask to “self-quarantine”

My assumption is that most cruisers early on will be motivated to take their vacations safely and will make an effort to follow the guidelines and rules presented. I know that’s naive, and won’t work beyond the first few months, but I think that’s what we are talking about.

“Self-quarantine” under these circumstances is not truly quarantine. You have not been exposed, you should just be doing what you should have been doing anyway - does that make sense? For your colonoscopy, it is easier to tell people to stay home between swabbing and the procedure than it is to have detailed discussions or instructions. Here in the US there are still enough people not taking sufficient precautions, so providers are reluctant to make statements beyond self-quarantine.

[PTC DAWG]

More mumbo jumbo recommendations from the CDC, I’m not surprised...

[Fouremco]

4 minutes ago, PTC DAWG said:

More mumbo jumbo recommendations from the CDC, I’m not surprised...

You must be posting on the wrong thread, as this one isn't discussing recommendations from the CDC.

[Travelexpert35]

14 hours ago, SHIP TRAVELER said:

I agree shuffling down the aisle of a bus containing 48 other people all jammed together does not sound good to me. 

Paying outrageous prices to be herded like cattle does not help make the picture rosy. 

We like to go ashore and find a colorful bar, chat with the bar tender and try a local beer.  We have done this in nearly every port we have ever visited. We even did this twice in Russia without any local money.

I guess that will not be happening any time soon..

I’ve been reading the posts from the MSC cruises in the Med and their excursions are costing only 20 Euros for walking tours which amounts to $31 Cad. They are even offering specials for 3 ship excursions. They only take around 20 people on the bus. The cruises lines will have to offer lower pricing on their excursions to attract passengers on their ships with the new rules.

[SHIP TRAVELER]

1 hour ago, Travelexpert35 said:

I’ve been reading the posts from the MSC cruises in the Med and their excursions are costing only 20 Euros for walking tours which amounts to $31 Cad. They are even offering specials for 3 ship excursions. They only take around 20 people on the bus. The cruises lines will have to offer lower pricing on their excursions to attract passengers on their ships with the new rules.

That sounds hopeful.  I am struck by the huge undertaking this will be for Celebrity and RCCL.  We have all been on ships where certain excursions are sold out.   Planning to get everyone on the ship on  a safe excursion is going to be a challenge.  I am sure that cruise companies will be as eagar as passengers to return to the pre covid conditions for leaving a ship at ports.

Edited September 22, 2020 by SHIP TRAVELER

[Mulege]

On 9/21/2020 at 5:35 PM, marieps said:

Thanks for this...

Summary 

Will Taking a Cruise Ever Be Fun Again?

Carnival, Royal Caribbean, and Norwegian Cruise Line are starting to formulate a plan of what cruising will be like in the new normal. It won't be pretty.

Rick Munarriz

There's been a lot of talk about when cruise ships will start sailing again, but not a lot of chatter about what the experience will be like. With the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) continuing to kick the "no-sail" order can down the calendar, it's easy to set aside the conversation. Carnival (NYSE:CCL) (NYSE:CUK), Royal Caribbean Cruises (NYSE:RCL) and Norwegian Cruise Line Holdings(NASDAQ:NCLH) have canceled all stateside sailings until at least early November.

However, with the Healthy Sail Panel, helmed by Royal Caribbean and and Norwegian Cruise Line, putting out their health and safety recommendations this week, reality is starting to sink in. Cruising isn't going to be as fun and carefree as it used to be for passengers, and it's definitely not going to be as lucrative for the actual cruise line operators.

Image source: Getty Images.

All a-bored

The 65-page report by the industry-helmed panel details dozens of new protocols that will make the cruising experience safe and ideally acceptable to the CDC. Some of the things may seem fairly obvious. Passengers will have to be tested for COVID-19 just before going on a ship -- no greater than five days before they set sail -- and submit the negative result. There will then be an additional health screening at embarkation.

Crew members will have even more hoops to jump through. They also will be required to submit a fresh negative test before boarding the ship, but then they'll have to quarantine on the vessel for seven days and pass another COVID-19 test before beginning their duties. 

Life on the ship will also be a little more inconvenient. Passengers and crew will have to submit to daily temperature checks and be required to wear face coverings for most of the time that they're outside of their cabins. Naturally, there'll be exceptions when eating, drinking, or swimming, but the mask requirement is going to be a deal-breaker for some potential passengers. 

Financially speaking, the measures will take a bite out of the profitability that Carnival, Royal Caribbean, and Norwegian Cruise Line investors are used to seeing. The panel recommends that the ships have fewer passengers -- and crew members -- on board. The itineraries should also be shorter, with limited shore excursions to keep exposure in check. The cruise lines will also be on the hook for enhanced protocols including improving ventilation and medical capabilities, increased sanitation, and other measures to limit interactions. 

If this doesn't sound like the magical cruises that you may have taken in the past, you're right. If some of these measures seem like a regulatory overreaction, keep in mind that it's the cruise lines themselves proposing these changes as a way to get approval to start sailing again. Cruise ships continue to be the last major travel transportation industrywaiting for the green light, but this could be just the start of a new wave of problems for the cruise lines. 

 

 

[Baron Barracuda]

Newark Airport has begun offering antibody and PCR tests without appointment,  2 - 3 day turnaround.   They will soon have 15 minute rapid test as well.  Cost is $75 - $90.  May be a sign of things to come at airports.

 

https://abc7ny.com/new-jersey-covid-testing-19/6414362/

[mnocket]

On 9/21/2020 at 9:22 AM, phoenix_dream said:

Full disclosure - I skimmed through the document and did not read every word.  Here are my impressions:

• I could have written this.  They didn't need PHD's - as a knowledgeable cruiser, Cruise Critic reader, and former manager I could have filled it with the same manager speak they did.  I learned nothing new
• There is way too much recommending to recommend.  They need to recommend that cruise lines REQUIRE some of these processes, not just recommend them.  Too many passengers already ignore many recommendations.
• Their recommendation of a negative test up to 5 days prior is almost worthless.  Many of us fly to our destinations, stay in port cities a day or two prior, and take transportation.  In addition, many of us cannot find anyplace to get a test that gives quick results.  So that means, the actual testing date may be as much as 10 days prior or more!  I also don't know about others, but in our area the standard testing spots do not give you any type of written confirmation.  So you would need to try to get an appointment at your doctor's office for the test  - may not be possible.
• Too many "if feasible", such as the quick test before boarding.  IMHO (yes, I am not a PHD!) that is something that needs to be required before boarding!
• A lot of vague recommendations - decrease capacity by what %?  Increase medical facilities and care to what passenger to doctor ratio/what passenger to bed ratio?   What is the definition of a quarantine area and how is it to be managed?? To me this is a critical oversight in the document.  This is the kind of detail which I would think would be expected by the knowledgeable experts on this panel.  But is it not there!
• Not their fault, but what happens next?   I know this is US based only, but the CDC has not given any indication (to my knowledge - correct me if wrong) of what they intend to do with this document.  

 

I had very much the same reaction when I read the document.  Then I realized this is not a submission to the CDC, but is a recommendation to the cruise industry.  The purpose I suppose is to help guide them in formulating their submissions to the  CDC.  I expect the formal submissions to the CDC will contain far more details and all of those "shoulds" will become "shalls".

[mnocket]

On 9/21/2020 at 10:11 AM, phoenix_dream said:

They did not need to pay experts to come up with generic, common sense "recommendations"

Very true, but this is the typical corporate MO -  instead of having your staff take a week to compile these common sense recommendations, assemble a group of highly paid experts to take 4 months to do the same thing.   Corporations often pay outside "experts" to do what their staff can do faster because they feel the "experts" bring more gravitas to the results.

[mnocket]

20 hours ago, Arizona Wildcat said:

seems CLIA has accepted the proposal.   Thus we await the Vector see how they match up.

Actually, CLIA has issued their own "mandatory core elements of a strong set of health protocols to be implemented as part of a phased-in, highly controlled resumption of operations"

 

https://cruising.org/en/news-and-research/press-room/2020/september/clia-and-its-cruise-line-members-announce-mandatory-core-elements-of-health-protocols

 

These recognize the work done by the Healthy Sail Panel, but stand independent.

[hcat]

In my opinion( non political), CDC  has not had an impressive record in connection with handling of Covid 19......but it still has the authority function as a roadblock in the U.S..

 

If the recently proposed legislation succeeds,  the regulatory role  for cruise health issues may go to other entities  which are solely focused on ships, port safety  and cruising.

[RedneckBob]

Very interesting about COVID testing 5 days out and 24 hours. Will no work. Only way it will work is by setting up test sites at entry to port such as Port Everglades and not being allowed entry into Cruise terminal until notified by text that you passed. Good luck with that. The car line may run from Port Everglades along Alligator Alley to Naples FL

[phoenix_dream]

5 hours ago, cangelmd said:

You do ask to “self-quarantine”

My assumption is that most cruisers early on will be motivated to take their vacations safely and will make an effort to follow the guidelines and rules presented. I know that’s naive, and won’t work beyond the first few months, but I think that’s what we are talking about.

“Self-quarantine” under these circumstances is not truly quarantine. You have not been exposed, you should just be doing what you should have been doing anyway - does that make sense? For your colonoscopy, it is easier to tell people to stay home between swabbing and the procedure than it is to have detailed discussions or instructions. Here in the US there are still enough people not taking sufficient precautions, so providers are reluctant to make statements beyond self-quarantine.

I think you make some good points.  But at the same time, even with many of the more common sense precautions I would take at home, I would encounter more exposure when traveling to a cruise ship.  Riding in an airplane probably sits atop that list.  I also would be getting more exposure than I would do in my day to day life, even following precautions like mask wearing and social distancing (which I always do), as I would by necessity need to interact more with others at hotels, taxis/ubers, and more eating at restaurants (albeit outside) than I normally would at home.  Some of that could be mitigated by flying in the day of, but that has it's own risks unrelated to the virus.  There just is no good answer unfortunately.

[Tapi]

On 9/21/2020 at 1:36 PM, Dwight1 said:

Hmmmm. $6k to wear a mask most of the time, not do what I want to on an island but only take the crummy cruise line excursions, take a covid test several days before boarding ( good luck on that one), limit going to “safe” ports, stay 6 feet away from all other cruisers. I hope I never get that desperate to plunk down that much cash to sail under these conditions. Adios to 2022.

What if you found a super affordable cruise, like less than $200pp for a balcony stateroom on a 7 night cruise? Would you be willing to put up with these protocols? Or is it still a hard pass? 

Edited September 22, 2020 by Tapi

[Arizona Wildcat]

3 minutes ago, RedneckBob said:

Very interesting about COVID testing 5 days out and 24 hours. Will no work. Only way it will work is by setting up test sites at entry to port such as Port Everglades and not being allowed entry into Cruise terminal until notified by text that you passed. Good luck with that. The car line may run from Port Everglades along Alligator Alley to Naples FL

Bob- our local University has been running a couple thousand tests a day.  Over 5K tests done before kids could move into dorms. Little waiting for either test or results in 48 hours.  Tests are rapidly changing with cost coming down.  As for a doctor's order being required, at least here if you want one you go get one.  

I absolutely agree that once cruising is opened to international travellers things get complicated.  However, we are talking about short cruises to the private islands in the Bahamas right now for US cruisers.

Seems likely that cruising will be limited until borders open and airlines schedule accordingly.  For some months Canada and most of Europe seem to be closed to Americans.

[Arizona Wildcat]

3 hours ago, SHIP TRAVELER said:

That sounds hopeful.  I am struck by the huge undertaking this will be for Celebrity and RCCL.  We have all been on ships where certain excursions are sold out.   Planning to get everyone on the ship on  a safe excursion is going to be a challenge.  I am sure that cruise companies will be as eagar as passengers to return to the pre covid conditions for leaving a ship at ports.

Since they are talking about short cruises only to places like the private islands at first, seems shore excursions will be moot issue.  Many will find that great just to get on board.  Many others will say no.

[Covepointcruiser]

TUI has been following most of the protocols recommended since August.    Passengers are dealing with it.    Costa will be starting soon in Italy for Italian citizens.   As long as this virus is around your travel will be severely restricted.    Arriving at the port city ahead of time for a pre cruise vacation is a personal decision so if will be up to you to get a COVID screening in whatever state, or country you will be in 5 days prior to the cruise.