Jump to content

What are the views on clause 40


MX-Drew
 Share

Recommended Posts

Here is clause 40 of P&O's T&Cs.

 

40.              Whilst P&O Cruises will do its best not to cancel or to make any significant alteration after a booking has been made, it shall nevertheless be entitled at any time prior to departure to cancel the Contract or to change and/or curtail the Package where this reasonably becomes necessary on operational, commercial or other grounds. P&O Cruises will inform the Guest of any such cancellation or change of Package as quickly as possible (with, where appropriate, written confirmation as soon as reasonably possible thereafter). If P&O Cruises makes a significant alteration to the Package it will inform the Guest or his/her travel agent as soon as reasonably possible. The Guest will have the choice of either accepting the alteration, accepting an offer of an alternative Package of comparable standard if available (P&O Cruises will refund any price difference if the alternative is of a lower value) or cancelling the Package and receiving a full refund of all monies paid. The Guest recognises and agrees that it will not normally be possible for P&O Cruises to offer an appropriate substitute Package which is available at about the same time as and/or with a similar itinerary to that originally booked, but P&O Cruises will do its best to provide a suitable alternative Package of similar duration and value. The Guest must notify P&O Cruises of his/her decision as soon as reasonably possible and in any event not later than 14 days of being informed of the significant alteration. 

 

Does this not mean once the "guest" has been informed in writing of the changes due to Covid-19 the "guest" can apply for a refund if they do not like the changes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MX-Drew said:

Here is clause 40 of P&O's T&Cs.

 

40.              Whilst P&O Cruises will do its best not to cancel or to make any significant alteration after a booking has been made, it shall nevertheless be entitled at any time prior to departure to cancel the Contract or to change and/or curtail the Package where this reasonably becomes necessary on operational, commercial or other grounds. P&O Cruises will inform the Guest of any such cancellation or change of Package as quickly as possible (with, where appropriate, written confirmation as soon as reasonably possible thereafter). If P&O Cruises makes a significant alteration to the Package it will inform the Guest or his/her travel agent as soon as reasonably possible. The Guest will have the choice of either accepting the alteration, accepting an offer of an alternative Package of comparable standard if available (P&O Cruises will refund any price difference if the alternative is of a lower value) or cancelling the Package and receiving a full refund of all monies paid. The Guest recognises and agrees that it will not normally be possible for P&O Cruises to offer an appropriate substitute Package which is available at about the same time as and/or with a similar itinerary to that originally booked, but P&O Cruises will do its best to provide a suitable alternative Package of similar duration and value. The Guest must notify P&O Cruises of his/her decision as soon as reasonably possible and in any event not later than 14 days of being informed of the significant alteration. 

 

Does this not mean once the "guest" has been informed in writing of the changes due to Covid-19 the "guest" can apply for a refund if they do not like the changes?

That is what it says, and in the covid restart period it will possibly be needed if the situation in any planned port of call changes prior to sailing.

But of course any change is only likely to be fairly last minute, so this clause will be unlikely to be of much use to people wanting to cancel before paying the final balance.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is merely setting out the rights for a consumer.  If you enter into a contract with a supplier snd they are unable to honour contract you are entitled to a full refund.

 

The only potential sticking point is definition of 'significant alteration' which will be a point between a change of port and the cruise not operating.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Thejuggler said:

It is merely setting out the rights for a consumer.  If you enter into a contract with a supplier snd they are unable to honour contract you are entitled to a full refund.

 

The only potential sticking point is definition of 'significant alteration' which will be a point between a change of port and the cruise not operating.

Discussions elsewhere on this forum have tended to indicate that P&O will not refund due to the Covid protocols but I (along with everyone else who booked before Covid) did not book a cruise where I could not mix at dining, go into see shows or wander around ports on my own. So to me this is a "significant" change.

 

I intend to try this with P&O and will report back but it will not be this week as I'm just back from (a land based) holiday and have loads to catch up on.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not being able to get off the ship without a guided tour would be enough of a significant change as this changes the whole cruise experience. The only way P&O could get around that one would be to provide free tours for everyone and have enough spaces everyday for every passenger. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The question here is what are you buying? What you are not buying are excursions - that’s a separate purchase so the arguments about only having bubbled tours won’t work.

 

Yes, you can get off the ship at any port but P&O still and always have had the authority not to let you reboard - you are not a prisoner trapped on the ship.
 

You are most certainly buying travel to a list of destinations, with full board and lodgings. There would be uproar if tea or a full english was not served on the ship but that wouldn’t be a significant change as what you buy isn’t that specific. Your package includes onboard entertainment but again non specific.

 

The Ts & Cs allow changes for both safety and operational reasons. The Covid changes fall under safety changes.

 

If you don’t want to adapt, just move your cruise two years in the future but when it comes to fighting for your money back, make sure you understand the specifics of what you’ve bought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, molecrochip said:

The question here is what are you buying? What you are not buying are excursions - that’s a separate purchase so the arguments about only having bubbled tours won’t work.

 

Yes, you can get off the ship at any port but P&O still and always have had the authority not to let you reboard - you are not a prisoner trapped on the ship.
 

You are most certainly buying travel to a list of destinations, with full board and lodgings. There would be uproar if tea or a full english was not served on the ship but that wouldn’t be a significant change as what you buy isn’t that specific. Your package includes onboard entertainment but again non specific.

 

The Ts & Cs allow changes for both safety and operational reasons. The Covid changes fall under safety changes.

 

If you don’t want to adapt, just move your cruise two years in the future but when it comes to fighting for your money back, make sure you understand the specifics of what you’ve bought.

Thank you for your very detailed answer. I have not said I don’t want to adapt, I’m more the opposite but I’m booked for 2021 & 2022 so how many times can I keep moving a booking?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, molecrochip said:

Yes, you can get off the ship at any port but P&O still and always have had the authority not to let you reboard - you are not a prisoner trapped on the ship

With all due respect, if you can only get off the ship if you pay a substantial fee, you are in effect being held to ransom.

People have bought a cruise to various destinations, with the implicit expectation of being able to leave the ship, f.o.c. at these destinations. To have to pay to leave the ship is a cosmic shift in the t&c's. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, wowzz said:

With all due respect, if you can only get off the ship if you pay a substantial fee, you are in effect being held to ransom.

People have bought a cruise to various destinations, with the implicit expectation of being able to leave the ship, f.o.c. at these destinations. To have to pay to leave the ship is a cosmic shift in the t&c's. 

You won’t be stopped leaving the ship for free. You might just not be allowed back on!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 minutes ago, molecrochip said:

You won’t be stopped leaving the ship for free. You might just not be allowed back on!

If P&O intend to do that, then I would hope that they make strenuous efforts not to let people off the ship who are not booked on a ships tour.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone from another group posted that all the trips had sold out for her future cruise which made me wonder if there will be enough places for everyone on trips if everyone wanted to get off  the ship.I am not keen on organised excursions but would be annoyed if I couldn t get off at a port because there were no tours left

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, ann141 said:

Someone from another group posted that all the trips had sold out for her future cruise which made me wonder if there will be enough places for everyone on trips if everyone wanted to get off  the ship.I am not keen on organised excursions but would be annoyed if I couldn t get off at a port because there were no tours left

As cruises won't start for the next 4,or5 weeks, they have got time to organise a few more coaches😎

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ann141 said:

Someone from another group posted that all the trips had sold out for her future cruise which made me wonder if there will be enough places for everyone on trips if everyone wanted to get off  the ship.I am not keen on organised excursions but would be annoyed if I couldn t get off at a port because there were no tours left

 The excursions often show as ‘sold out’ before they put them on sale - as mad as that seems!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, GUT2407 said:

If you say it is a significant change and P&O say it’s not, a judge may have to decide for you.

 

Win ...; Win

 

 

for the lawyers anyway.

 

That is the point.  Case law has not yet caught up with COVID, but it will do.  A case would need to go to at least The High Court or an appeal court to make case law, so in effect someone would need to have legal insurance, or find a firm prepared to take it on a no win no fee basis.  Or maybe a lawyer who is affected would decide to take the time to fight a case.

 

Would only need one case to go that far though.

Edited by tring
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, tring said:

 

That is the point.  Case law has not yet caught up with COVID, but it will do.  A case would need to go to at least The High Court or an appeal court to make case law, so in effect someone would need to have legal insurance, or find a firm prepared to take it on a no win no fee basis.  Or maybe a lawyer who is affected would decide to take the time to fight a case.

 

Would only need one case to go that far though.

Which is what P&O are probably relying on. Who will actually confront them?

 

Perhaps an action in the small claims court might do the trick. 

Alternatively a leaked report to the Daily Mail  - " My incarceration hell on board a multi million pound cruise ship " might get a reaction from P&O. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, wowzz said:

Which is what P&O are probably relying on. Who will actually confront them?

 

Perhaps an action in the small claims court might do the trick. 

Alternatively a leaked report to the Daily Mail  - " My incarceration hell on board a multi million pound cruise ship " might get a reaction from P&O. 

 

Certainly in the shorter term I see the latter happening.  Regards the small claims process, just depends on how it goes, though apparently if it is basically a Government requirement it may not be a clear cut situation as in pre covid days.  Case law would clarify.

 

Selling further cruises on those terms is another matter and once they need new bookings without use of a FCC, I can see a re think coming.

 

Interesting Fred is offering very flexible conditions for new cruise bookings for 2021, (as well as his enjoyment promise, which has been there for a few years, so valid for existing bookings as well).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The key issue is that P&O have stated publicly that the opportunity to have a penalty free transfer may change at any time.  This would only be said if this was at least being envisaged.  This means that the passenger either must either accept the restrictions, or accept a real financial loss.  That's a worsened position than is the case now.

 

In terms of what you are buying...you are purchasing travel rights to particular destinations, provided that it is safe to dock...with full board and lodgings, agreed.

 

The issue is not the bubbled tours, it is the principle that additional payment for the privilege must follow.  When you book the cruise, you have the choice to pay the headline price, nothing more and enjoy the package.  Now you don't, simple as. 

 

That's the alteration (significant change of price) and if no tours are available (significantly reduced enjoyment also).  You also lose almost all of the privileges of Select Price (dining, free shuttles, potentially transport flexibility), which is probably arguable too, as the company could default the price to the early saver fare - which they will of course not do so.

 

The argument that if you disembark without making payment you lose your right to enjoy the paid for package shouldn't stand.  It would be very straightforward for the company to offer a shuttle bus to the nearest centre and then comply with the applicable local or UK restrictions.  

 

The other argument is the charge by the passenger to have the COVID tests.  The company should absorb the costs for the same, however that feels less clear cut than the disembarkation penalty charge.

 

You would (trust/hope) that the company had taken regulator advice before issuing its policy.  However, the fact that it's approach is less generous than others would imply that it's competitors either see the situation differently, or don't fancy hacking off their customers over a technicality.

Edited by No pager thank you
Typos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am booked for July 2021. it might all be over by then, but it was a booking done 2 years ago to get a single balcony cabin. Balance will be due in April; if it looks as though these restrictions will be in place I intend not to pay, and to charge back my credit card for the deposit ( which was small).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Clodia said:

I am booked for July 2021. it might all be over by then, but it was a booking done 2 years ago to get a single balcony cabin. Balance will be due in April; if it looks as though these restrictions will be in place I intend not to pay, and to charge back my credit card for the deposit ( which was small).

 

If you do not pay the balance you have chosen to cancel your cruise.  Hence any charge back claim (or section 75 as would be far more sensible for a CC) would not be valid.  That protection would only be if a cruise is not provided by the supplier.  Even court claims would not be clear cut, as I explained in earlier posts.  I do hope all will be coming back to some sort of normality by July though, not least because that is when our first booked cruise is due.

 

Regards being able to explore a port independently, we feel very strongly about that, as mentioned by a number of other people.  Sadly, my thoughts are that any port calls in the early return to cruising time may well have been discussed with the port or country concerned and I suspect it could well be them that do not allow cruise passengers to disembark independently, rather than any decision by P&O, though P&O will have to obey agreed procedures with both our own government and any other relevant authorities/governments.  We have all seen the EU guidance, which will likely apply in such cases, though hopefully it will evolve over time.  We all know a port can refuse to take a cruise ship, so seems sensible to think that there could be conditions applied for a port call under current circumstances.

 

We called at Porbandar, India in mid February this year and, whilst passengers were allowed to disembark, crew were not.  As the Captain said subsequently, passengers spend money in port, whilst they do not!  To put that in a bit more perspective, I will add that a member of the crew had been taken ashore in Mumbai with flu symptoms a few days earlier, though e had been diagnosed with a specific strain of flu prior to our call in Porbandar, otherwise we would have not been allowed ashore either.  India were quite rightly getting a bit tetchy by then.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We go on a cruise to travel. If there are significant restrictions on leaving the ship then you should have the right to cancel.  P&O will find it hard to dispute this.

 

P&O will have to tell you before you travel what the protocols that apply to your cruise before you travel.  If there are significant restrictions the must offer a refund.

 

You should either move your deposit,  or wait for new protocols to be confirmed for your cruise and  ask for refund. Don't loose your money by not paying balance. 

 

You should write to P&O just before your balance is due and ask (demand to be told) what protocols will be in place for your cruise. If there are restrictions ask for a refund, of your deposit. If  P&O won't tell you talk to your  credit  card company  upfront,  to see if they will support you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

  • Forum Jump
    • Categories
      • Welcome to Cruise Critic
      • New Cruisers
      • Cruise Lines “A – O”
      • Cruise Lines “P – Z”
      • River Cruising
      • ROLL CALLS
      • Digital Photography & Cruise Technology
      • Special Interest Cruising
      • Cruise Discussion Topics
      • UK Cruising
      • Australia & New Zealand Cruisers
      • Canadian Cruisers
      • North American Homeports
      • Ports of Call
      • Cruise Conversations
×
×
  • Create New...