CDC latest

[babs135]

Don't know how reliable this is, but it's depressing reading .

 

https://www.cruisehive.com/cdc-issues-warning-against-all-cruise-travel-worldwide/42932

[Roz]

@babs135, thanks for the link.  I went to the CDC's website but didn't find this same information, unless I wasn't looking in the right place.  If it is true, it's disappointing but not surprising.

[navybankerteacher]

Of course it is presenting a cruise industry point of view of a CDC recommendation.   Since the CDC’s aim is to limit the spread of a deadly virus, it is not surprising that they would recommend avoiding non-essential activities which have been shown to contribute to that spread.

[cruisemom42]

The CDC notice (which they provide a link to in their article) is from March 17, 2020.

 

Talk about picking up "news" rather late.....

[CruiserBruce]

28 minutes ago, cruisemom42 said:

The CDC notice (which they provide a link to in their article) is from March 17, 2020.

 

Talk about picking up "news" rather late.....

Agree. I read most of the linked info...the only thing I see different from much earlier pronouncements is the statement the cruise hold was extended on September 30. Beyond that...it appears to be many months old. 

 

Of course that could mean their position and advice has not changed. But, given the wrangling that appears to have gone on about the extension on September 30, I suspect there isn't much new here, and there is a reasonable chance the cruise hold will not be extended after Oct 31.

[Flatbush Flyer]

4 hours ago, babs135 said:

Don't know how reliable this is, but it's depressing reading .

 

https://www.cruisehive.com/cdc-issues-warning-against-all-cruise-travel-worldwide/42932

This is OLD news. Nothing changed since the last White House meeting that was cancelled because of Covid running rampant there.

[babs135]

My apologies but I was guided by their highlighted dates of October 21st and the 30th.   

[Hlitner]

This is nothing new, but the CDC chose to issue a Level 3 Warning last Wednesday.  The situation that caused a worldwide shutdown of the cruise industry and ports still exists!  The big question now is do we change our behavior to an acceptance of the COVID risk...or not!   As cruise lovers many of us on CC look for any justification to resume cruising.  But the resumption of mass market cruising in todays current COVID atmosphere is folly!  While the proposed ship mitigation measures will certainly help reduce the COVID risk, the risk is still great.  In fact, I would suggest that there will quickly be cases of COVID on some cruises if we resume in the next few weeks.  Why?  We only have to look at the experience gained by the resumption of cruising in Europe.  Several of those here on CC who supported quick resumption of cruising in the USA had used the resumption in Europe as a demonstration that cruising can be safe.  Really?  Lets look at the facts!

 

Europe has implemented cruising with very strict testing and mitigation guidelines.  And yet, the MSC Grandiosa had a confirmed case of COVID on their Oct 7th sailing.  In keeping with the "transparency" we are seeing in Europe the Italian Health Ministry and MSC have chosen to keep the info about this case under wraps.  Meanwhile, the Costa Diadema apparently had 8 confirmed cases but also tried to keep a lid on related information.  More recently a couple of river cruises in Germany had multiple cases.  Hurtigruten was forced to shut down operations after a few cases.   What I find disturbing is that there seems to be efforts to keep the COVID information very quiet.  And also consider that the other passengers on these cruises have since returned home and it remains to be seen if any of them were also positive and now further spreading COVID in their communities..not to mention on the transportation systems used to get them home.

 

None of this is lost on the CDC who we can assume is closely monitoring what is happening in Europe.  What the European experience shows is that no matter how strict the screening and mitigation measures some cases of COVID will occur.  The CDC must decide how to deal with new COVID cases that would most likely occur on cruises and, so far, there are more questions then answers on what to do.   Sure, the cruise lines can quickly isolate a sick passenger and provide excellent healthcare support.  But with what we now know about COVID, the damage (spread) would have been done prior to the person even knowing they were sick.  ARGH!

 

By the way,  That Level 3 Warning for all cruising is nothing to ignore.  Many health and travel policies exclude coverage if you knowingly travel to an area with a Level 3 Warning!   There are some travel health policies that will cover COVID under these circumstances but folks who decide to ignore that Level 3 warning should check the fine print of their health policies to make sure they are covered for COVID.

 

Hank

[c-boy]

17 minutes ago, babs135 said:

My apologies but I was guided by their highlighted dates of October 21st and the 30th.   

well then, as penance I want you to post some thing positive  ... 😄

[Roz]

@babs135, no need to apologize, news outlets do stuff like that all the time.

[babs135]

52 minutes ago, c-boy said:

well then, as penance I want you to post some thing positive  ... 😄

How about .... it's only 11 months to our next cruise?!!  🤣

[CruiserBruce]

1 hour ago, Flatbush Flyer said:

This is OLD news. Nothing changed since the last White House meeting that was cancelled because of Covid running rampant there.

Actually, on Sept 30, the CDC hold on cruises was extended to Oct 31. That was after the canceled meeting...there was a zoom meeting just before Sept 30 to finalize the extension. There was tremendous pressure put on CDC by the Administration and the Cruise industry not to extend the hold. CDC wanted to extend until after Jan 1. So, in regards to the hold, there were things done after Trump tested positive.

[pc_load_letter]

5 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

Of course it is presenting a cruise industry point of view of a CDC recommendation.   Since the CDC’s aim is to limit the spread of a deadly virus, it is not surprising that they would recommend avoiding non-essential activities which have been shown to contribute to that spread.

 

But yet the airline industry and their huge reach has made the CDC ease airtravel. Not to mention Southwest has just announced that they will now put people in the center seats.

 

CDC Announces Big Change to Air Travel Restrictions (yahoo.com)

[Hlitner]

5 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

Actually, on Sept 30, the CDC hold on cruises was extended to Oct 31. That was after the canceled meeting...there was a zoom meeting just before Sept 30 to finalize the extension. There was tremendous pressure put on CDC by the Administration and the Cruise industry not to extend the hold. CDC wanted to extend until after Jan 1. So, in regards to the hold, there were things done after Trump tested positive.

It is impossible to keep politics out of something as important to the economy as COVID.  But the CDC has not relented (yet) when it comes to cruising and simply compromised by adopting shorter time frames (later extended) to their no-sail order.   I think this has less to do with Trump then with the CLIA lobby group and Governor DeSantis along with Senator Scott who have all urged the White House COVID task force to help get cruising restarted.  But when the CDC reiterated their position, last Wednesday, by recommending against all cruising (worldwide) and declaring it a Level 3 risk, I think they were making their position very clear.  For them to now come out (by Oct 31) and allow cruising to resume in the USA would make absolutely no sense.

 

My other thought is that until there is a safe/effective vaccine nothing is going to change vis-a-vis cruising.  There would be no reason to restart cruising in Dec, Jan, Feb, etc.  unless we have a vaccine.  COVID is not going away, and crowding folks onto mass market cruise ships is not getting safer.   The model used in Europe to restart cruising is (and was) terribly flawed and does not work.  A contagious virus will go wherever it pleases until it either morphs into something less harmful (this is not happening) or we defeat it with drugs.  Smallpox was around for nearly 2000 years (there is evidence if existed in the 3rd century BCE) before we finally defeated it with a vaccine.  So those that think that COVID will simply go way are likely mistaken....especially since many researchers have called COVID a nearly perfect virus in terms of contagion.  While we join with most folks in hoping for some kind of miracle I suspect that the only miracle for COVID is a decent vaccine.

 

Hank

 

 

[navybankerteacher]

1 hour ago, pc_load_letter said:

 

But yet the airline industry and their huge reach has made the CDC ease airtravel. Not to mention Southwest has just announced that they will now put people in the center seats.

 

CDC Announces Big Change to Air Travel Restrictions (yahoo.com)

Apples and oranges — while some air travelers do it for recreation, it is a much more necessary activity than cruising - which also  offers much longer time frames for people to tire of reasonable precautions.

[c-boy]

2 hours ago, babs135 said:

How about .... it's only 11 months to our next cruise?!!  🤣

🥰  wonderful !

[crazyank]

On 10/26/2020 at 6:28 PM, Hlitner said:

 The model used in Europe to restart cruising is (and was) terribly flawed and does not work. 

In your opinion.

[getting older slowly]

I think the CDC was suggesting was  :-

no cruising in or out of America...

and for no Americains to go cruising in other parts of the world.... 

[Hlitner]

5 hours ago, getting older slowly said:

I think the CDC was suggesting was  :-

no cruising in or out of America...

and for no Americains to go cruising in other parts of the world.... 

That is very true.  They actually recommend no cruising or non-essential travel.  On the other hand, to some folks travel is essential to their mental health :).

 

Hank

[donaldsc]

3 hours ago, Hlitner said:

That is very true.  They actually recommend no cruising or non-essential travel.  On the other hand, to some folks travel is essential to their mental health :).

 

Hank

 

Interesting thought.  Would you have to get a letter from your doctor certifying that cruising is medically necessary or could you just say that you are going crazy because you aren't on a ship?  LOL!!!

 

Follow up question.  If the doctor does certify that the cruise is medically necessary, how about getting medicare to pay for it?  Got to know how to game the system.

 

DON

[Hlitner]

29 minutes ago, donaldsc said:

 

Interesting thought.  Would you have to get a letter from your doctor certifying that cruising is medically necessary or could you just say that you are going crazy because you aren't on a ship?  LOL!!!

 

Follow up question.  If the doctor does certify that the cruise is medically necessary, how about getting medicare to pay for it?  Got to know how to game the system.

 

DON

I like the way you think 🙂   We actually have a friend (she is a retired CPA) who managed to add and expensive indoor swimming pool to her home and get IRS to agree it was a tax deductible medical expense (an interesting tale).   So I guess anything is possible.  

 

Hank

[bigrednole]

On 10/26/2020 at 1:28 PM, Hlitner said:

My other thought is that until there is a safe/effective vaccine nothing is going to change vis-a-vis cruising. 

If that is the case, they need to tell the cruise industry. This will put cruising off in the US for 3-5 years. Anything out before that is to appease the media and give lip service to a few politicians. The ones rushing something out are doing so for profit and nothing more. Pharmaceuticals will be protected by the PREP Act and that is why they are rushing to get anything out. There is nothing like getting $1B in aid to develop a vaccine, another $0.5B in government backed purchase of the vaccine, and 0% liability for anything related to the vaccine. A company like Moderna is simply rubbing their hands together. They were given free money to develop it, guaranteed revenue to buy, and no care of what happens. I call that a massive win/win all around.

 

The CDC needs to declare publicly and specifically what will be required to cruise from US ports. If they cannot provide that, then they need to make it clear when cruising is banned until. This will allow cruise lines to make alternative plans to cruise from other ports. They could make deals with say Atlantis in the Bahamas. Have a day pass for passengers flying in the day before,

do embarkation check-in somewhere near or at Atlantis, and shuttle them to Nassau cruise port to board. This will bypass the CDC garbage, allow cruising to start, and people can fly from the Bahamas to MIA or FLL for their normal travel.

[Hlitner]

28 minutes ago, bigrednole said:

If that is the case, they need to tell the cruise industry. This will put cruising off in the US for 3-5 years. Anything out before that is to appease the media and give lip service to a few politicians. The ones rushing something out are doing so for profit and nothing more. Pharmaceuticals will be protected by the PREP Act and that is why they are rushing to get anything out. There is nothing like getting $1B in aid to develop a vaccine, another $0.5B in government backed purchase of the vaccine, and 0% liability for anything related to the vaccine. A company like Moderna is simply rubbing their hands together. They were given free money to develop it, guaranteed revenue to buy, and no care of what happens. I call that a massive win/win all around.

 

The CDC needs to declare publicly and specifically what will be required to cruise from US ports. If they cannot provide that, then they need to make it clear when cruising is banned until. This will allow cruise lines to make alternative plans to cruise from other ports. They could make deals with say Atlantis in the Bahamas. Have a day pass for passengers flying in the day before,

do embarkation check-in somewhere near or at Atlantis, and shuttle them to Nassau cruise port to board. This will bypass the CDC garbage, allow cruising to start, and people can fly from the Bahamas to MIA or FLL for their normal travel.

I am going to guess that you are a relatively young cruiser :).  If life were only so simple!  Your idea of using Nassau  or Grand Bahama Island would be possible for only a small number of ships but even that would be a problem because of the logistics needed to supply a single ship for a week.  The Bahamas do not have that infrastructure in place.  Also consider that as of Nov 1, anyone traveling to the Bahamas will need to have a recent negative PCR test and apply for a special Bahamian Visa (which comes with a fee) just to enter the Bahamas.  And then there is the issue as to where a cruise ship could go other then one of the private islands.  Most Caribbean ports have not announced their willingness to accept any ship.

 

But you must consider that there is a lot more to the cruise industry then short Caribbean cruises.  We are talking several hundred vessels that move in and out of ports all over the world.  The winter (our winter) market normally finds groups of ships in Australia (closed to cruising), New Zealand (closed), South Pacific (Closed), Europe (basically closed), Middle East (closed), South Asia (closed), South America (closed), etc.  As one who has cruised in all those places I can just imagine the frustration felt in the executive suites of the cruise lines.

 

I do believe that, once cruises are allowed to commence from US ports, we will start to see a few shorter Caribbean cruises.  In fact, this was exactly the point made by RCI's CEO in a recent interview.  He even talked about a serious of "test cruises" done with only cruise line employees so that they can test their health/safety policies.  On the other hand, the cruise lines give us little reason to be optimistic given their history of deception and lack of transparency.  If you want interesting reading start going through the documents that led to a Federal judge in Miami turning the screws on CCL for their continuous violation of environmental regulations not to mention a history of broken promises to the court.   You also need to consider that the cruise industry was not real forthcoming with the CDC during the early months of the pandemic which has apparently has resulted in a degree of skepticism at that agency.

 

We can learn from the results of some cruise resumption in Europe.  Those operations showed that with a lot of caution, mitigation, testing, and operating ships with only a small percentage of their capacity, there were still some cases of COVID on the ships.  While a couple of European governments seem to be willing to accept this situation it is not likely to be acceptable here in the USA.  My simple question has always been, "what will the cruise lines do when they get a single case of COVID on a ship?"   Until there are answers to that issue I do not think cruises are going to be a norm.   In Europe they simply ignored the issue and allowed thousands of cruisers (who were exposed to COVID) to simply go home (running the risk of infecting others on public transit and at home).  Because of the lack of transparency (so far) we do not know if others were infected, how many, and where.  It is likely that cruising in Europe will soon be shut down (again).

 

Hank

[evandbob]

With the surge in COVID cases, hospitalizations and deaths here in the US and Europe, resuming cruising remains unrealistic.  Let's not blame the CDC for cruise stoppages.  Rather our lax mitigation and prevention protocols have failed or the voluntary methods like wearing masks and social distancing are not being followed.  Blame the public at large, blame COVID fatigue, but there's no denying the numbers are rising to alarming heights.

 

There are 72,000 seconds in a day, yesterday we had 90,000 reported COVID cases, more than one per second!  5,600 deaths last week, YIKES!  That's more than the number of passengers on many cruise ships - imagine a cruise terminal loaded with that many coffins!

[evandbob]

1 hour ago, bigrednole said:

If that is the case, they need to tell the cruise industry. This will put cruising off in the US for 3-5 years. Anything out before that is to appease the media and give lip service to a few politicians. The ones rushing something out are doing so for profit and nothing more. Pharmaceuticals will be protected by the PREP Act and that is why they are rushing to get anything out. There is nothing like getting $1B in aid to develop a vaccine, another $0.5B in government backed purchase of the vaccine, and 0% liability for anything related to the vaccine. A company like Moderna is simply rubbing their hands together. They were given free money to develop it, guaranteed revenue to buy, and no care of what happens. I call that a massive win/win all around.

 

The CDC needs to declare publicly and specifically what will be required to cruise from US ports. If they cannot provide that, then they need to make it clear when cruising is banned until. This will allow cruise lines to make alternative plans to cruise from other ports. They could make deals with say Atlantis in the Bahamas. Have a day pass for passengers flying in the day before,

do embarkation check-in somewhere near or at Atlantis, and shuttle them to Nassau cruise port to board. This will bypass the CDC garbage, allow cruising to start, and people can fly from the Bahamas to MIA or FLL for their normal travel.

 

The Bahamas are not accepting cruise passengers per chengpk on another thread. They are only in phase 3, while phase 4 pertains to allowing cruise ship passengers in port.

 

And if the Bahamas reach phase 4, they can always disallow passengers from countries with alarming COVID infections and deaths like us here in the USA.