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1 minute ago, yorkshirephil said:

Depending on you age I might know you as I went to Penistone Grammar school between 1968 and 1973.

I'm older and not a Yorkshireman !  Married a Yorkshire lass and moved to Gods Country when I retired at 50, 24 years ago. Love it, even though I'm almost a Cockney !

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1 hour ago, lancashire_cruisers said:

The latest information I’ve seen for West Lancashire CCG is that patients who received their first jab on or before 31/12/20 will receive the second jab after 3 weeks. Thereafter the interval will be 12 weeks.

 

Of course the picture is changing rapidly but I haven’t seen any update to this so far.

Well my father had his Dec 16th. I guess he is one of the lucky ones. Problem is though the pfizer hasn't been tested for a 12 week layover so to speak.

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32 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

Well my father had his Dec 16th. I guess he is one of the lucky ones. Problem is though the pfizer hasn't been tested for a 12 week layover so to speak.

Completely agree about the extended interval between jabs. Without knowing how long the first jab is effective for the policy is playing Russian roulette and it isn’t something I’m comfortable with.

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9 minutes ago, lancashire_cruisers said:

Completely agree about the extended interval between jabs. Without knowing how long the first jab is effective for the policy is playing Russian roulette and it isn’t something I’m comfortable with.


Have to say I take the opposite view. I was quite cross listening to the selfishness of an elderly couple on our local TV news tonight complaining that they had ‘only’ had one jab each and would now have to wait 12 weeks for the second one, when the vast majority of their peers are still waiting for their first jab. I would have loved to have asked them the following question - if only two jabs were allocated for your household, would you have insisted that one of you had both, or would you want one each? I suspect I know the answer.

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Probably a silly question? We have now a much faster virus then Covid from South Africa. Will the jab also manage that as well.

Back in Lockdown now until February, what happens when we come out ?

I am in the 65 bracket, lets hope and pray the Government gets the vaccine the Country needs for everyone.

 

All take care and stay safe.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, lancashire_cruisers said:

Completely agree about the extended interval between jabs. Without knowing how long the first jab is effective for the policy is playing Russian roulette and it isn’t something I’m comfortable with.

I take it then that you consider yourself a better expert than JVT?

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1 minute ago, Amelia Noylam said:

Probably a silly question? We have now a much faster virus then Covid from South Africa. Will the jab also manage that as well.

Back in Lockdown now until February, what happens when we come out ?

I am in the 65 bracket, lets hope and pray the Government gets the vaccine the Country needs for everyone.

 

All take care and stay safe.

 

 

Nobody knows yet for sure whether the vaccine will work on the new variant. The general consensus seems to be that it should, as to whether the same protection will be achieved we will have to wait and see, the experts at the vaccine makers will be looking at the new variant to see whether a tweak is needed. Boris said that by the middle of Feb all the people in the top 4 groups should be vaccinated. As to when we come out of lockdown who knows what will happen, ask 2 different people, get 2 different answers. 

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2 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

Nobody knows yet for sure whether the vaccine will work on the new variant. The general consensus seems to be that it should, as to whether the same protection will be achieved we will have to wait and see, the experts at the vaccine makers will be looking at the new variant to see whether a tweak is needed. Boris said that by the middle of Feb all the people in the top 4 groups should be vaccinated. As to when we come out of lockdown who knows what will happen, ask 2 different people, get 2 different answers. 

Yes you are right no one knows, it's a waiting game.

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23 minutes ago, Selbourne said:


Have to say I take the opposite view. I was quite cross listening to the selfishness of an elderly couple on our local TV news tonight complaining that they had ‘only’ had one jab each and would now have to wait 12 weeks for the second one, when the vast majority of their peers are still waiting for their first jab. I would have loved to have asked them the following question - if only two jabs were allocated for your household, would you have insisted that one of you had both, or would you want one each? I suspect I know the answer.

For the Pfizer vaccine in particular if there was evidence available to support a longer gap between doses then I would agree with you but there is no such evidence available and that comes from the manufacturer. Given the less than stellar performance by those allegedly in charge this kind of arbitrary policy change makes me nervous.

 

I’ve no such concerns with the AZ/Oxford vaccine - should have made that clear in my first post.

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Well to be fair to Boris, I thought he handled that very well. I was pleased that he used the word ‘lockdown’ rather than raising tier levels nationally. The commitment to get the first 4 priority groups jabbed by mid Feb (over 70’s) is a huge one and will require a monumental effort, but AT LAST we now have a date and a specific target. No weasel words there. Good also that school kids due exams this year know that it’s now being reviewed. Presume Uni students haven’t gone back yet? We all have differing views and opinions, but I was impressed. As an aside, imagine the pressure of talking live to the nation? The largest group I addressed live was 2,500 people and it was terrifying 😂 

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6 minutes ago, lancashire_cruisers said:

For the Pfizer vaccine in particular if there was evidence available to support a longer gap between doses then I would agree with you but there is no such evidence available and that comes from the manufacturer. Given the less than stellar performance by those allegedly in charge this kind of arbitrary policy change makes me nervous.

 

I’ve no such concerns with the AZ/Oxford vaccine - should have made that clear in my first post.


I fully appreciate the point you are making, but this is a worldwide emergency. It is far more likely that more lives will be saved by the revised approach. There has never been a day when all the experts are in agreement on anything, but the vast majority seem to be supporting the policy. I think JVT summed it up best. Given a choice of having two people with 87% protection or one with 95% and the other with no protection, which would you choose? We simply cannot afford to take twice as long to get around to vaccinating all vulnerable people (which, don’t forget, is everyone over 50), which is exactly what would happen if we gave 2nd jabs within 3 weeks. 

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20 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

Nobody knows yet for sure whether the vaccine will work on the new variant. The general consensus seems to be that it should, as to whether the same protection will be achieved we will have to wait and see, the experts at the vaccine makers will be looking at the new variant to see whether a tweak is needed. Boris said that by the middle of Feb all the people in the top 4 groups should be vaccinated. As to when we come out of lockdown who knows what will happen, ask 2 different people, get 2 different answers. 


Phil - can I ask you this as I know you have specialist knowledge? I’ve heard that there are reports circulating today that the South African variant may be resistant to the vaccine but, like you, aren’t getting too worried as I believe that vaccines can be tweaked very quickly (in fact I was staggered to learn that the original vaccine was devised within just 48 hours of the genetic code being identified - if that’s the correct term). My question is, can they just tweak the vaccine and carry on jabbing, or will there need to be tests which could delay things? Also, would those vaccinated ‘pre tweaks’ need to be jabbed again? Thanks. 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Selbourne said:


Phil - can I ask you this as I know you have specialist knowledge? I’ve heard that there are reports circulating today that the South African variant may be resistant to the vaccine but, like you, aren’t getting too worried as I believe that vaccines can be tweaked very quickly (in fact I was staggered to learn that the original vaccine was devised within just 48 hours of the genetic code being identified - if that’s the correct term). My question is, can they just tweak the vaccine and carry on jabbing, or will there need to be tests which could delay things? Also, would those vaccinated ‘pre tweaks’ need to be jabbed again? Thanks. 

 

 

 

One advantage the vaccine makers had was that a lot of the building blocks for vaccines are in place, SARS generated a lot of valuable data which is still being worked on in the background. In reality I think most people knew that a pandemic was coming, just not when, history has a habit of repeating itself. It is an unbelievable achievement to get a vaccine rolled out and approved in the current time frame, I would have bet my bottom dollar that it couldn't happen. With current techniques for genetic mapping making changes can be quite quickly achieved, typically the product would be piloted on a small scale before being analysed and approved by the companies QC and QA departments. If the changes are minor the company may go to full scale production with the globe being in crisis. MHRA will prioritise approval and say yea or nay. 

 

The vaccine that is currently on the shelf/under test and approval and being produced cannot be modified, in my opinion carrying on as we are while investigating a modified vaccine is the way forward as the current vaccine should still be effective to a degree, only time will tell. It may sound off the wall but there could even be a slight chance that the vaccine is more effective against the new variant. There are people who will have natural immunity to the new variant and more variants as the virus mutates. An effective virus should not kill its host and mutation is the viruses way of achieving that, being more transmissible but being less fatal is the preference, however the virus does not know that people with weakened immune systems or underlying health issues will die. The people who have had the vaccine should reach optimum protection  and not need to be vaccinated again within the current year. Only time will tell whether we reach herd immunity and the virus subsides or whether we will need a jab every year as with flu. Sorry to waffle and to use weasly words but in essence I don't have a crystal ball. The saving grace is that we are building up data as we go which should help in the future.

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8 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

One advantage the vaccine makers had was that a lot of the building blocks for vaccines are in place, SARS generated a lot of valuable data which is still being worked on in the background. In reality I think most people knew that a pandemic was coming, just not when, history has a habit of repeating itself. It is an unbelievable achievement to get a vaccine rolled out and approved in the current time frame, I would have bet my bottom dollar that it couldn't happen. With current techniques for genetic mapping making changes can be quite quickly achieved, typically the product would be piloted on a small scale before being analysed and approved by the companies QC and QA departments. If the changes are minor the company may go to full scale production with the globe being in crisis. MHRA will prioritise approval and say yea or nay. 

 

The vaccine that is currently on the shelf/under test and approval and being produced cannot be modified, in my opinion carrying on as we are while investigating a modified vaccine is the way forward as the current vaccine should still be effective to a degree, only time will tell. It may sound off the wall but there could even be a slight chance that the vaccine is more effective against the new variant. There are people who will have natural immunity to the new variant and more variants as the virus mutates. An effective virus should not kill its host and mutation is the viruses way of achieving that, being more transmissible but being less fatal is the preference, however the virus does not know that people with weakened immune systems or underlying health issues will die. The people who have had the vaccine should reach optimum protection  and not need to be vaccinated again within the current year. Only time will tell whether we reach herd immunity and the virus subsides or whether we will need a jab every year as with flu. Sorry to waffle and to use weasly words but in essence I don't have a crystal ball. The saving grace is that we are building up data as we go which should help in the future.


Thanks Phil. I have to say that having you on this forum is invaluable. I am a bit of a news junkie and listen to all the experts on these issues, but their answers are only as good as the questions they are asked and the media often seem fixated on trivial issues whilst ignoring the really important questions!

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6 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

One advantage the vaccine makers had was that a lot of the building blocks for vaccines are in place, SARS generated a lot of valuable data which is still being worked on in the background. In reality I think most people knew that a pandemic was coming, just not when, history has a habit of repeating itself. It is an unbelievable achievement to get a vaccine rolled out and approved in the current time frame, I would have bet my bottom dollar that it couldn't happen. With current techniques for genetic mapping making changes can be quite quickly achieved, typically the product would be piloted on a small scale before being analysed and approved by the companies QC and QA departments. If the changes are minor the company may go to full scale production with the globe being in crisis. MHRA will prioritise approval and say yea or nay. 

 

The vaccine that is currently on the shelf/under test and approval and being produced cannot be modified, in my opinion carrying on as we are while investigating a modified vaccine is the way forward as the current vaccine should still be effective to a degree, only time will tell. It may sound off the wall but there could even be a slight chance that the vaccine is more effective against the new variant. There are people who will have natural immunity to the new variant and more variants as the virus mutates. An effective virus should not kill its host and mutation is the viruses way of achieving that, being more transmissible but being less fatal is the preference, however the virus does not know that people with weakened immune systems or underlying health issues will die. The people who have had the vaccine should reach optimum protection  and not need to be vaccinated again within the current year. Only time will tell whether we reach herd immunity and the virus subsides or whether we will need a jab every year as with flu. Sorry to waffle and to use weasly words but in essence I don't have a crystal ball. The saving grace is that we are building up data as we go which should help in the future.

Hopefully,with the amazing progress that's been achieved this last year they could produce a vaccine that can combine this one and the flu jab.

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9 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

One advantage the vaccine makers had was that a lot of the building blocks for vaccines are in place, SARS generated a lot of valuable data which is still being worked on in the background. In reality I think most people knew that a pandemic was coming, just not when, history has a habit of repeating itself. It is an unbelievable achievement to get a vaccine rolled out and approved in the current time frame, I would have bet my bottom dollar that it couldn't happen. With current techniques for genetic mapping making changes can be quite quickly achieved, typically the product would be piloted on a small scale before being analysed and approved by the companies QC and QA departments. If the changes are minor the company may go to full scale production with the globe being in crisis. MHRA will prioritise approval and say yea or nay. 

 

The vaccine that is currently on the shelf/under test and approval and being produced cannot be modified, in my opinion carrying on as we are while investigating a modified vaccine is the way forward as the current vaccine should still be effective to a degree, only time will tell. It may sound off the wall but there could even be a slight chance that the vaccine is more effective against the new variant. There are people who will have natural immunity to the new variant and more variants as the virus mutates. An effective virus should not kill its host and mutation is the viruses way of achieving that, being more transmissible but being less fatal is the preference, however the virus does not know that people with weakened immune systems or underlying health issues will die. The people who have had the vaccine should reach optimum protection  and not need to be vaccinated again within the current year. Only time will tell whether we reach herd immunity and the virus subsides or whether we will need a jab every year as with flu. Sorry to waffle and to use weasly words but in essence I don't have a crystal ball. The saving grace is that we are building up data as we go which should help in the future.

Would a variant vaccine need piloting? Isn't that what happens every year with the flu vaccine, where they need to modify it as the flu virus mutated? 

I assume they dont do pilot tests on flu vaccines  especially considering that some changes often happen in the last few weeks before the vaccine is rolled out.

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20 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

One advantage the vaccine makers had was that a lot of the building blocks for vaccines are in place, SARS generated a lot of valuable data which is still being worked on in the background. In reality I think most people knew that a pandemic was coming, just not when, history has a habit of repeating itself. It is an unbelievable achievement to get a vaccine rolled out and approved in the current time frame, I would have bet my bottom dollar that it couldn't happen. With current techniques for genetic mapping making changes can be quite quickly achieved, typically the product would be piloted on a small scale before being analysed and approved by the companies QC and QA departments. If the changes are minor the company may go to full scale production with the globe being in crisis. MHRA will prioritise approval and say yea or nay. 

 

The vaccine that is currently on the shelf/under test and approval and being produced cannot be modified, in my opinion carrying on as we are while investigating a modified vaccine is the way forward as the current vaccine should still be effective to a degree, only time will tell. It may sound off the wall but there could even be a slight chance that the vaccine is more effective against the new variant. There are people who will have natural immunity to the new variant and more variants as the virus mutates. An effective virus should not kill its host and mutation is the viruses way of achieving that, being more transmissible but being less fatal is the preference, however the virus does not know that people with weakened immune systems or underlying health issues will die. The people who have had the vaccine should reach optimum protection  and not need to be vaccinated again within the current year. Only time will tell whether we reach herd immunity and the virus subsides or whether we will need a jab every year as with flu. Sorry to waffle and to use weasly words but in essence I don't have a crystal ball. The saving grace is that we are building up data as we go which should help in the future.

That's really interesting, do you think it's possible that the vagueness around the quantities of vaccine to be delivered is anything to do with the recent Kent strain of the virus being investigated at Porton Down. JVT said at a recent briefing that it will take them about 14 days to analyse whether the new strain will be resistant to the vaccine which coincides with the potential uplift in production? Does that make sense?

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9 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

Would a variant vaccine need piloting? Isn't that what happens every year with the flu vaccine, where they need to modify it as the flu virus mutated? 

I assume they dont do pilot tests on flu vaccines  especially considering that some changes often happen in the last few weeks before the vaccine is rolled out.

There are several factors that would determine whether a new vaccine would need piloting, one of them being the stability of the vaccine, this has come to the fore with the new style mRNA vaccines and the fact that they need to be stored at -70oC. Another is cost, by putting any product into full scale production carries substantial risk, a scaled up batch of a product can be worth millions of pounds, things can go wrong in production and batches are lost, chemistry doesn't always go as planned even with well established products. Albeit the corona virus is similar to the cold virus we do not have the experience with corona to take too many risks in the initial production. We did pilot batches of flu vaccines, but bear in mind we were not under pressure to produce the vaccine as quickly. Production of vaccine for the British flu season would be agreed by the governing bodies and passed to manufacturers for roll out in summer, to a degree it was a wet finger in the air as to which strains were expected which is why some years the flu vaccine can be at 40%, last year there was a late emergence of a modified strain which was incorporated into production late and only given to the over 65s as not enough could be made for everyone. Also most manufacturers do not necessarily make all stages of the product as they do not have the capacity or technology which creates supply chain issues. I have no experience of manufacturing mRNA vaccine as this is quite new but the fact that two companies brought this vaccine to market first suggests that they were very well prepared or the processing time is shorter?

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18 minutes ago, nicki-k said:

That's really interesting, do you think it's possible that the vagueness around the quantities of vaccine to be delivered is anything to do with the recent Kent strain of the virus being investigated at Porton Down. JVT said at a recent briefing that it will take them about 14 days to analyse whether the new strain will be resistant to the vaccine which coincides with the potential uplift in production? Does that make sense?

I see where you are coming from but I doubt that the new strain has anything to do with delivery schedules, I think every effort will be made to deliver and vaccinate as many people as possible as quickly as possible. 

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6 hours ago, Dinglebert said:

Fair enough.  However, next of kin is not a relationship recognised anymore.  People can if they choose have someone authorised to be given information about a patient.  Just being related doesn't count!

 

Whoever is nominated is called next of kin though. We had a problem with an uncle a couple of years ago as a neighbour had a bad influence on him and got himself labelled as NOK.  The neighbour's son was a drug dealer who was obviously involved, and there is no doubt they were into no good.  My uncle realised it towards the end of his life and wanted to change it all as well as his will, but it was no good by then as he had been confused when he had a kidney infection and then became incapable of being re assessed as ok, which he clearly was by then.  At least his immediate family were able to spend his last few days at his bedside which we are very thankful for.  The new system has it's problems.

 

When people are very elderly they do talk to relatives.  In fact at the request of my husband, his mum was not even told of her terminal prognosis towards the end of her life this year.  I have also had no problem being told about medical matters of an elderly aunt as well as my uncle (who I have mentioned) and no terminal prognosis at those respective stages.

 

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According to Johnson last evening, all the following will be vaccinated by the middle of February:

 

1 - Residents in a care home for older adults and their carers
2 - All those aged 80 and over. Frontline health and social care workers
3 - All those aged 75 and over
4 - All those aged 70 and over. Clinically extremely vulnerable individuals

 

The programme hasn't even started yet in this area, and given that the previous assurance that 'millions' of vaccinations would be done by 31 December failed dismally I'm not holding my breath.

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Meanwhile, at the coal-face, in darkest North London, we are working tirelessly to vaccinate every arm that is held out to us. Things are going well. We have completed step 1. in Bath Oliver's list. The cohort in Step 2 starts at 8am today.

 

As long as the supply chain holds up we'll be ready and waiting with our vials and needles.

 

North Central London CCG told us yesterday that those patients already vaccinated can have their second Pfizer up to and including 11th January. After that we go to the 12 week schedule.

 

At the moment the Astra Zeneca vaccines are only being given at hospitals. We hope to have more news about the roll-out to general practice later today. At the moment we are fully booked until 16th January in our 'hub'. Whether or not we continue in hubs or revert to the vaccine being given from each individual practice is not yet clear. From the hub we are giving roughly 900vaccines per day.

 

Keep the faith - you know the NHS won't let you down - it's all down to the supplies coming through.

 

Have a good day everyone.

 

Best wishes.

 

Jane

 

 

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