More details on the CDC mandate and return to sailing

[jimbo5544]

12 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, what you are saying is that without a vaccine, there should be no cruising?  And, yet, you complain that the CDC is restricting cruising while there is no vaccine?

You asked what my plan was. That is the way out.  It does not mean that life cannot go on while the way out is under way.  You are starting to scare me with your logic arguments.

[jimbo5544]

12 minutes ago, Moviela said:

The industry is starting to fight back, not the companies, they know not to pull on Superman's cape, but the ports are doing the lifting. 

 

Today Fox Business Channel did hourly live reports from the new terminal 3 at Port Canaveral. I must say it does look beautiful. The  el hefe for the port was interviewed several times and basically said they have had enough stalling, humming, and hawing by the CDC. 

I agree that there are now multiple evidence trails on things beginning to show that fight.  I hope it continues.

[Butterbean1000]

14 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

Totally agree, it is easy for them to stand up on their soapboxes and ramble on.  Hope you are trending better. 

Feeling good. Taste and smell continues to be an issue.  

[chengkp75]

19 minutes ago, Saint Greg said:

 

I never said the CDC had jurisdiction over hotels. If the CDC thinks paying attention to what's happening at other places that have guest rooms, pools, dining, laundry, retail and fitness centers is a waste of time, that just demonstrates how dumb they are.

 

Perhaps I should have been more explicit.  The CDC feels that thinking of remediation measures for hotels, etc, are a waste of time, because they cannot enact them.  But, they still study what happens there, to improve their knowledge of epidemiology, just as they study noro outbreaks at nursing homes and colleges, to see how things happen, even if they have no jurisdiction over those places.

[chengkp75]

13 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

You asked what my plan was. That is the way out.  It does not mean that life cannot go on while the way out is under way.  You are starting to scare me with your logic arguments.

Okay, so if you are willing to "go on with life" while waiting for the "way out", what it appears you are saying is that because remediation measures are not perfect, and don't stop transmission completely the way people hope a vaccine will, that you just drop the remediation efforts and "roll the dice" that you won't get infected, and worse, that you won't infect others?

 

And, you know why the No Sail Order was repeatedly renewed, you just don't want to admit it, that if the cruise lines had made efforts to meet the requirements of the NSO, the CDC could have shifted to the CSO, which has the same requirements, months ago.

[DGP1111]

35 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

 

The way out is the vaccine, not the CDC.  The way out is effective treatment, not the CDC.  They tried, and tried their best, I do not doubt their motives, just their performance.

 

 

I've been back in my Cruise Critic 'silo' again for quite a while, but there have been some recent posts (one from NYC, one from TX, and now this from you) that make minimal sense when I see them.

 

I'm certain that with the best intent of offering quality information to this online forum, you've often used the word Fact, while peppering it with opinion. You definitely have doubted numerous motives, starting way back in the early discussions of cooties season. 

 

You were/are 100% correct in your observations of seemingly flip-flop decisions during these months, and I've joined in that frustration as well, but that is the way Scientific Method works. There will be some great successes as well as some goobered-up errors.  You learn from those errors.  That goes for multiple government bodies, including the CDC, as well as the individual cruise providers.  

 

I was supposed to board a ship this Friday, and then again next Friday. Of course that ain't happening. People in authority make decisions that I have to live with.  I do wish that you'd been able to directly witness even a small amount of the work done with CDC participation during these horribly troubling times.  It would help add balance between opinion and fact.

 

Be well, Jimbo!!  I want to get back on a ship as soon as possible too.

 

.

[BlerkOne]

2 hours ago, crewsweeper said:

Maybe the CDC should take another look at big box stores and groceries as those seem to be the catch-alls for coronavirus oubreaks based on contact tracing.  Close the entire firm's stores in any state where one case of the virus occurs due to someone shopping at that store. And due note that most people in stores are wearing masks.

I believe restaurants and gyms are at the top of the list. Most customers are either not wearing masks, or not wearing them properly, it seems.

[BlerkOne]

1 hour ago, skridge said:

I was wrong.  I thought we would be back on cruise ships by December.  I guess I didn't realize how many would ignore some simple basic instructions and cause the pandemic to explode the way it has.  Sigh.

Bingo. and they keep repeating the same mistakes OVER and OVER. and then try to blame others.

[ukbecky]

9 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Bingo. and they keep repeating the same mistakes OVER and OVER. and then try to blame others.

 

Assumption. 

 

What mistake did "they" make?

[BlerkOne]

29 minutes ago, ukbecky said:

 

Assumption. 

 

What mistake did "they" make?

Lie, Deny, Scream Freedom, Golf and then spread the virus some more.

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, Butterbean1000 said:

Feeling good. Taste and smell continues to be an issue.  

Hang in there.  

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

Okay, so if you are willing to "go on with life" while waiting for the "way out", what it appears you are saying is that because remediation measures are not perfect, and don't stop transmission completely the way people hope a vaccine will, that you just drop the remediation efforts and "roll the dice" that you won't get infected, and worse, that you won't infect others?

 

And, you know why the No Sail Order was repeatedly renewed, you just don't want to admit it, that if the cruise lines had made efforts to meet the requirements of the NSO, the CDC could have shifted to the CSO, which has the same requirements, months ago.

I feel strongly that the virus will do what it wants until it is over.  Our actions may delay and some if they isolate for the duration, will not be impacted.  Life is full of choices, we make them every day, some more important to others.  The vaccine IS the answer...and that is a fact.  Whether you or I embrace remediation and mask wearing, and social isolation will be what it it will be.  Some will and some will not. That is the ay it works in the good old US of A.  

 

It does no good whatsoever to rehash why something happened or did not.  I really do not care.  I want the CDC to be 100% behind the industry and support (let me restate this...I do not care, not who was right and who was wrong). I have no inside knowledge, but my guess is they were reeling with 100 different things and dealing with this one showed they were in free fall.  There appeared to be no easy way out and they alternatives looked costly and time consuming.  I would also guess they thought we would be much further along in the recovery then we were currently are (I know I thought we would be).  All that said, it matters not.  You seem much more focused on what occurred and who was right or wrong and I want to be laser focused on getting back to cruising as we knew it.  

 

One step at a time, 100% focused on the goal, everybody focused (including the CDC).  There are successful examples out there to succeed, everyone needs to embrace these.  If things take a turn for the worse, slow it down, not throw up another roadblock that solves nothing.  That is my 2 cents, YOMV 

[BlerkOne]

4 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

I feel strongly that the virus will do what it wants until it is over.  Our actions may delay and some if they isolate for the duration, will not be impacted.  Life is full of choices, we make them every day, some more important to others.  The vaccine IS the answer...and that is a fact.  Whether you or I embrace remediation and mask wearing, and social isolation will be what it it will be.  Some will and some will not. That is the ay it works in the good old US of A.  

 

 

Do you choose to sneeze in someone's face or to at least turn away. Wear the mask.

 

Misinformation about vaccines has already started and is only going to get worse. Watch this space.

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, DGP1111 said:

 

I've been back in my Cruise Critic 'silo' again for quite a while, but there have been some recent posts (one from NYC, one from TX, and now this from you) that make minimal sense when I see them.

 

I'm certain that with the best intent of offering quality information to this online forum, you've often used the word Fact, while peppering it with opinion. You definitely have doubted numerous motives, starting way back in the early discussions of cooties season. 

 

You were/are 100% correct in your observations of seemingly flip-flop decisions during these months, and I've joined in that frustration as well, but that is the way Scientific Method works. There will be some great successes as well as some goobered-up errors.  You learn from those errors.  That goes for multiple government bodies, including the CDC, as well as the individual cruise providers.  

 

I was supposed to board a ship this Friday, and then again next Friday. Of course that ain't happening. People in authority make decisions that I have to live with.  I do wish that you'd been able to directly witness even a small amount of the work done with CDC participation during these horribly troubling times.  It would help add balance between opinion and fact.

 

Be well, Jimbo!!  I want to get back on a ship as soon as possible too.

 

.

LOL, well minimal sense is better than no sense. I really do not remember cooties season, but it does sound like me.  Any discussion involves facts and supporting these.  I can only comment on my views and what I think will work.  

 

In regards to flip flops, I tried to stay away from the ones that are tied to science, the list is long though and they all blend together.  As late as today they changed the recommendation on the isolation period.  Of course everybody wants to succeed, I understand that.  The issue in my mind comes down to two differences.  The first is that their way of handling the cruise industry is WAY different than their approach on everything else.  That brings the scorn front and center.  The other one is that I see only one side and that side and the other side appears to be sitting back and drumming their fingers waiting for the “response”. It totally cuts across the grain in what I know in my heart of heart of what the RIGHT way to solve the problem.  Way to much finger pointing and posturing and way to little production.  I have a tough view, because there is no room for outward bound sessions of team building, their is a job to get done, and like NOW.

 

Lastly, I have the one viewpoint, wish I saw the other side, but they fade to background from my view.  All that said, I like it better when you are out of the silo, than it it.  Stick around, the good times are coming.  We need to find a way to get to sail together...in the near future.

[Ellaleah]

I would never consider cruising without a vaccine and am amazed at how many would risk their lives for a cruise.  I have booked my next cruise for 12/22 and I am hoping that proof of vaccination will be mandatory.

[jimbo5544]

2 minutes ago, Ellaleah said:

I would never consider cruising without a vaccine and am amazed at how many would risk their lives for a cruise.  I have booked my next cruise for 12/22 and I am hoping that proof of vaccination will be mandatory.

For starters, literally over 100,000 have signed up for the Royal trial cruises.  You can add at least a zero to those willing to cruise.  Unless living in isolation or seclusion, from your point of view, “risk’ their lives every day.  For the record, vaccines may be mandatory on cruises or not, but never for population, and the virus will not leave without a fight otherwise.  

[chengkp75]

I find two things very interesting in the arguments from those who place the "boogeyman" and "hate the cruise industry" labels on the CDC.

 

First, they decry the "flip flops" that the CDC has made with regards to the pandemic, and remediation measures, and cite this as "failure of leadership", yet in the one area where they have stood firmly, and not changed their recommendations for 8 months, they are labeled as "dictatorial".

 

Second, they decry the CDC for not giving specific details on what was needed to restart cruising, yet even in areas that the CDC had no jurisdiction over, and areas where many have made comparisons to the cruise industry, the CDC has not made specific remediation details, just general recommendations.  They make recommendations based on their expertise, and leave it to others to implement those recommendations based on the industry's (whatever industry) expertise to actually make it happen.

 

And, I feel that freedom of choice is a basic US tenet, and have served to protect that right, but your right to choose to cruise ends when your sneeze risks my health.  You say a vaccine is the way out for cruising, and while that can protect those on the cruise, I say that a mandatory quarantine after the cruise is the way out to protect those who choose not to cruise, until there is a sufficiently large enough vaccinated public to reduce transmission cases down to "background" levels.

[tallnthensome]

It’ll be 100% vaccination requirement for all on board ..... or forget about it, cruising is toast. If they require the vaccine, which we would get, and they still require testing, cruising is toast. Surely a false positive would occur even still after vaccinations and if quarantine rules still applied forget about it. Too risky and a waste of time and money for almost anyone wanting to cruise going forward. Only way to cruise looking forward is 100% vaccinations (2 doses) for all on board and no Covid testing. That’s the only way at this point.

[jimbo5544]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

I find two things very interesting in the arguments from those who place the "boogeyman" and "hate the cruise industry" labels on the CDC.

 

First, they decry the "flip flops" that the CDC has made with regards to the pandemic, and remediation measures, and cite this as "failure of leadership", yet in the one area where they have stood firmly, and not changed their recommendations for 8 months, they are labeled as "dictatorial".

 

Second, they decry the CDC for not giving specific details on what was needed to restart cruising, yet even in areas that the CDC had no jurisdiction over, and areas where many have made comparisons to the cruise industry, the CDC has not made specific remediation details, just general recommendations.  They make recommendations based on their expertise, and leave it to others to implement those recommendations based on the industry's (whatever industry) expertise to actually make it happen.

 

And, I feel that freedom of choice is a basic US tenet, and have served to protect that right, but your right to choose to cruise ends when your sneeze risks my health.  You say a vaccine is the way out for cruising, and while that can protect those on the cruise, I say that a mandatory quarantine after the cruise is the way out to protect those who choose not to cruise, until there is a sufficiently large enough vaccinated public to reduce transmission cases down to "background" levels.

I am not sure how we got to the end of the cruise when we never started.  The cdc only recommends quarantine after exposure.  If there were a breakout on a ship (a proven documented breakout) then the new shorter quarantine might be an answer.  Simply to say that anyone on a cruise has to quarantine because they were on one seems like folly to me.  I think we agree on your thoughts on herd immunity once the vaccine takes hold.  Lastly, no one should feel shame for having high expectations and being critical for an organization (the organization) whose job is to provide leadership, expertise and guidance out of the storm.  We should all be tough on them, it is their job, and by any standard, they are not doing a good job.  

[jimbo5544]

1 minute ago, tallnthensome said:

It’ll be 100% vaccination requirement for all on board ..... or forget about it, cruising is toast. If they require the vaccine, which we would get, and they still require testing, cruising is toast. Surely a false positive would occur even still after vaccinations and if quarantine rules still applied forget about it. Too risky and a waste of time and money for almost anyone wanting to cruise going forward. Only way to cruise looking forward is 100% vaccinations (2 doses) for all on board and no Covid testing. That’s the only way at this point.

I have no idea what the end result will be, doubt they do either.  I have no issue with a mandatory vaccine, all the rest of the toast is up for discussion.  

[tallnthensome]

2 minutes ago, jimbo5544 said:

I have no idea what the end result will be, doubt they do either.  I have no issue with a mandatory vaccine, all the rest of the toast is up for discussion.  

One would think and hope that if all were vaccinated to meet the lines and CDC requirements that no testing would be necessary .... I’m sure most could live with that. It’s the testing and false positives that is the killer ..... 

[jimbo5544]

7 minutes ago, tallnthensome said:

One would think and hope that if all were vaccinated to meet the lines and CDC requirements that no testing would be necessary .... I’m sure most could live with that. It’s the testing and false positives that is the killer ..... 

I agree with you, but we have to get there.

[crewsweeper]

13 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

I believe restaurants and gyms are at the top of the list. Most customers are either not wearing masks, or not wearing them properly, it seems.

I'm hearing opposite.  No gym has been flagged as a contact trace point in Florida or New Jersey, when opened.  I have yet to hear of a restaurant being a contact point anywhere.  But you can't eat with a mask on .

 

In fact, even though everywhere we're seeing increases in the coronavirus now-as that's what these types of viruses do in late fall early winter, it appears the states with the most restrictive policies are the ones experiencing the  largest increases.  And we know from studies, cloth masks aren't all that preventative. 

 

Vaccines can't come soon enough.  Some epidemiologists opine that the elusive "herd-immunity" can be achieved with 50-70% of population vaccinated.  

[bitemyfly]

Britain ‘Uk has already approved Pfizer’s  vaccine ,  and we wait till a meeting next weeK . Masks can help but no where near the answer, in fact it just turned into a political straw man,

while states with serious lock downs have the virus spreading .

vaccine and effective treatment will get cruising going.

the fda should meet now and along with the cdc get this vaccine in people arms , all else is BS 

[jimbo5544]

With the recent news by NCL it makes one wonder whether the strategy will now be to wait until the vaccines become readily available and mandate vaccine before sailing (at least for the majority of fleet).  If they did this, I wonder how it would adjust the CDC return to sea directive....hmmm