Norwegian is looking into Covid-19 vaccine requirement

[YankeeFan4Ever]

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Norwegian-is-looking-into-the-legality-of-vaccination-requirement?fbclid=IwAR1YaW3_zuKihZPpXp-7ma2MXTFhLoq2kDrAy0vcYp_i4hWecQWy51l-pUw

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by YankeeFan4Ever

[BirdTravels]

It's good that they are evaluating the legality of the requirement prior to "shooting from the hip" like the Qantas CEO.

 

If the article accurately reported the interview, sounds like April may be the first voyages. We're booked in April, so we'll see how that goes. 

[hallux]

They are exploring the legality of requiring a vaccine to board one of their ships?  IMO - it's a similar argument to a store requiring a mask for entry, it's a privately-owned space, they can set any rules they want.  There shouldn't be any legal question regarding requiring a vaccine to board, but IANAL...

[GA Dave]

9 minutes ago, hallux said:

They are exploring the legality of requiring a vaccine to board one of their ships?  IMO - it's a similar argument to a store requiring a mask for entry, it's a privately-owned space, they can set any rules they want.  There shouldn't be any legal question regarding requiring a vaccine to board, but IANAL...

I read an article that said the main concern for employers, stores, airlines, cruise lines, etc., requiring proof of vaccination is their liability when someone comes down with Covid anyway.  Since the vaccines are showing a 95% efficacy rate, that could mean 5% get the vaccine but still get Covid.  These businesses are concerned about law suits if that happens.

[ace2542]

30 minutes ago, hallux said:

They are exploring the legality of requiring a vaccine to board one of their ships?  IMO - it's a similar argument to a store requiring a mask for entry, it's a privately-owned space, they can set any rules they want.  There shouldn't be any legal question regarding requiring a vaccine to board, but IANAL...

Correct! After all if it was possible to challenge things like that legally I am sure plenty of guys in new york and other cities would have mounted a court case against the no single guys in bars. That case would have hit court a long time ago as opposed to guys leaving LA in particular because they hate it because they can't get in anywhere.

 

And once they figure out you can't really challenge it especially if CDC suggests it they will for want of a better term put the line in the sand the way Qantas did. And I am sure anyone who challenged and would be banned by NCL?

[ace2542]

23 minutes ago, GA Dave said:

I read an article that said the main concern for employers, stores, airlines, cruise lines, etc., requiring proof of vaccination is their liability when someone comes down with Covid anyway.  Since the vaccines are showing a 95% efficacy rate, that could mean 5% get the vaccine but still get Covid.  These businesses are concerned about law suits if that happens.

And not allowing an unvaccinated person onboard would make that moot for the most part.

[PelicanBill]

A liability shield for businesses was in fact in discussion with the present negotiations for a relief bill in US Congress.  Sounds like it was pulled off the table as a compromise for now, but I think we will need to see something. I just hope it is specific about a shield from liability for normal exposure - same as the flu or norovirus... But allows lawsuits for negligence or willful violation of laws. Example:

Business owner willfully fails to enforce a limit on social distancing vs. a customer doesn't maintain distance and someone gets sick and wants to sue the business.  The trick here is there needs to be a law - local or state.  It can't be a "suggestion" to social distance.  And when a business puts their own rule up - masks required - but there no law - it gets really sticky.  The private property and trespass laws take over... but can you sue the owner because a customer would not comply?  Should not be able to.

 

And you can't be allowed sue for normal exposure, such as when there is an outbreak traced to being present in a particular restaurant on a particular evening and the owner was doing everything right.

 

[graphicguy]

1 hour ago, GA Dave said:

I read an article that said the main concern for employers, stores, airlines, cruise lines, etc., requiring proof of vaccination is their liability when someone comes down with Covid anyway.  Since the vaccines are showing a 95% efficacy rate, that could mean 5% get the vaccine but still get Covid.  These businesses are concerned about law suits if that happens.

Good points, Dave.  The flip side, if they don’t require a vaccine, they may go out of business if they can’t get passengers to sail them.  This will be as much a marketing tool as it is a health requirement.  They’ve already made a point of installing virus killing HVAC filters.

 

Passenger safety will become a major selling tool, I believe.

 

The requirement can be made.  It’s their ship.  I’m sure they’ll be taken temps before boarding.  If you have a fever, you won’t be able to board.  No proof of a vaccination?  Boarding denied.

 

Hope you and your wife are well.  I’m actually looking at an Alaska cruise for this summer in the Haven on the Bliss.

[CruiseMH]

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

 

The requirement can be made.  It’s their ship.  I’m sure they’ll be taken temps before boarding.  If you have a fever, you won’t be able to board.  No proof of a vaccination?  Boarding denied.

 

 

temperature taking before boarding is just something to calm down the guests but it is almost completely useless to sort out persons with covid-19. So it can only be one of many measures.

Regarding the proof of a vaccination i am really curios on how the cruise lines with international guests will handle it. Cause almost every country has different regulations and different ways of saving the information about vaccination and giving their residents some form of proof. I do doubt that dctors/hospitals/medical facilities will sign a general draft provided by the cruise lines as a proof.

So for international guests it might become very difficult to provide a proof of vaccination to the cruise line.

 

[Capitan Obvious]

9 hours ago, SpainAlien said:

The only figure I take into account is how many people are being admitted to hospital because the number of tests doesn't affect that. The number of deaths is another reliable one but that is normally a couple of weeks behind

 

 

I don't know about the death count either as it can easily be skewed. Show me the number of people that died from COVID vs the number of people that died for one or more causes that also had COVID as a contributer. For example, (and you can Google this) back in the summer it was reported in Florida that a man died in a motorcycle crash. Turns out he also had COVID so they counted it as a COVID death. The doctor claimed "well, it could be argued that COVID caused him to crash". 

 

I'd like to see them report the number of COVID-only deaths along with the number of deaths that also had COVID.

[graphicguy]

1 hour ago, CruiseMH said:

temperature taking before boarding is just something to calm down the guests but it is almost completely useless to sort out persons with covid-19. So it can only be one of many measures.

Regarding the proof of a vaccination i am really curios on how the cruise lines with international guests will handle it. Cause almost every country has different regulations and different ways of saving the information about vaccination and giving their residents some form of proof. I do doubt that dctors/hospitals/medical facilities will sign a general draft provided by the cruise lines as a proof.

So for international guests it might become very difficult to provide a proof of vaccination to the cruise line.

 

High temperatures is just one of the COVID symptoms.  It’s also the easiest and quickest to detect with non touch thermometers.  I’m certain whenever you get on the ship, either at embarkation or from a port, your temperature will be taken.

 

I’m thinking it doesn’t matter what country you’re from.  But, to board the ship, you’ll have to bring a statement from a Dr or recognized health agency, with a medical seal, showing the person who has been inoculated, the date of inoculation and the organization who did the inoculation as well as their certifications showing they’re an official health agency who is authorized to provide inoculations for COVID.  Again, this will be country independent.

 

If you can’t provide the above, regardless of the reason,  you can’t cruise. 

[BirdTravels]

3 hours ago, graphicguy said:

Good points, Dave.  The flip side, if they don’t require a vaccine, they may go out of business if they can’t get passengers to sail them.  This will be as much a marketing tool as it is a health requirement.  They’ve already made a point of installing virus killing HVAC filters.

 

Passenger safety will become a major selling tool, I believe.

 

The requirement can be made.  It’s their ship.  I’m sure they’ll be taken temps before boarding.  If you have a fever, you won’t be able to board.  No proof of a vaccination?  Boarding denied.

 

Hope you and your wife are well.  I’m actually looking at an Alaska cruise for this summer in the Haven on the Bliss.

Under your definition, there will be no cruises to Alaska or anywhere else by summer because an insufficient number of passengers will meet the criteria of being vaccinated. 

[nomad098]

4 hours ago, graphicguy said:

  No proof of a vaccination?  Boarding denied.

 

 

 

So

no families with kids under 18

no medically unable to have a vaccine and that covers quite a few people

no pregnant women 

no breast feeding women 

no women planning on having kids in the near future

 

That's got to equal between 35% to 45% families alone equal 30% of the market

 

Add to that those that choose not to get vaccinated 15% to 20%

 

so a conservative 50% to 60% of the cruise lines customers unable to cruise.

 

And this does not take into account that healthy under 50's may not be offered the vaccine dependent on the outcome of the initial phased roll out in the UK may be different elsewhere.

 

It may prove difficult to even half fill all the ships cruise lines have which is not very profitable.

 

[ace2542]

1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

Add to that those that choose not to get vaccinated 15% to 20%

That is the carrot or stick however that works to get those 15-20% to get vaccinated. 😉

 

1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

no medically unable to have a vaccine and that covers quite a few people

And they may allow this grouping to get the upcoming antibody shot with proof of  shot being needed and doctors note showing that requirement. 

[nomad098]

50 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

That is the carrot or stick however that works to get those 15-20% to get vaccinated. 😉

 

And they may allow this grouping to get the upcoming antibody shot with proof of  shot being needed and doctors note showing that requirement. 

 

I was being generous if non cruise critic cruisers are like the rest of the population it could be anywhere between 20% and 50% depending what poll you believe. But those on cruise critic love to cruise.

 

Hopefully more vaccines can come online and fill the gaps that mRNA vaccines have

[ace2542]

52 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

I was being generous if non cruise critic cruisers are like the rest of the population it could be anywhere between 20% and 50% depending what poll you believe. But those on cruise critic love to cruise.

 

Hopefully more vaccines can come online and fill the gaps that mRNA vaccines have

But you can swap out cruisers for flyers to America, Canada, Australia, Dubai etc etc. Most of these countries will probably require the vaccine to enter, ergo to fly even if the airlines don't. Of course UK government should be no vaccine no entry to push the carrot or whatever around from our side.

[slavetoabunny]

I really think that a vaccine requirement will seriously shrink the cruising market.  It's time to buy a motorhome - for what I have spent on cruises in just the last five years, I could get a really high-end one.

[IrieBajan54]

1 hour ago, slavetoabunny said:

I really think that a vaccine requirement will seriously shrink the cruising market.  It's time to buy a motorhome - for what I have spent on cruises in just the last five years, I could get a really high-end one.

.

Some of us prefer to be at sea breathing fresh sea air instead of auto fumes while looking at blacktop driving from city to city. Vaccine or bust!

Edited December 11, 2020 by IrieBajan54
correction

[graphicguy]

11 hours ago, BirdTravels said:

Under your definition, there will be no cruises to Alaska or anywhere else by summer because an insufficient number of passengers will meet the criteria of being vaccinated. 

I think there will be many fewer passengers allowed to cruise, which coincides with sailing at 50%-60% capacity that they’ve been talking about.

 

Initially (maybe 18 mos from first sailings out of U.S. ports), “at risk” folks like pregnant or new mothers who are nursing probably won’t be able to cruise.  

 

Again, I think out of the gate (all of 2021, at least), without a vaccine, you aren’t going to be allowed to cruise.  We may learn more and tweak those rules.  But, over the next 12 months you’re going to need a COVID vaccine to cruise.

Edited December 11, 2020 by graphicguy

[nomad098]

10 hours ago, slavetoabunny said:

I really think that a vaccine requirement will seriously shrink the cruising market.  It's time to buy a motorhome - for what I have spent on cruises in just the last five years, I could get a really high-end one.

 

9 hours ago, IrieBajan54 said:

.

Some of us prefer to be at sea breathing fresh sea air instead of auto fumes while looking at blacktop driving from city to city. Vaccine or bust!

 

Environmentally speaking a motorhome might not be a bad idea

 https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/luxury-cruise-giant-emits-10-times-more-air-pollution-sox-all-europe’s-cars-–-study

[farmersfight]

13 hours ago, slavetoabunny said:

I really think that a vaccine requirement will seriously shrink the cruising market.

 

Will it also seriously shrink the airline market?

[hamrag]

13 hours ago, slavetoabunny said:

I really think that a vaccine requirement will seriously shrink the cruising market.  It's time to buy a motorhome - for what I have spent on cruises in just the last five years, I could get a really high-end one.

 

Presumably even the really high end motorhomes cannot sail the high seas! 😉

[farmersfight]

15 minutes ago, hamrag said:

 

Presumably even the really high end motorhomes cannot sail the high seas! 😉

 

I wouldn't be too sure about that;

 

[GA Dave]

53 minutes ago, hamrag said:

 

Presumably even the really high end motorhomes cannot sail the high seas! 😉

Here is my "motorhome".  No vaccine required!  🤣

Edited December 11, 2020 by GA Dave

[halos]

20 hours ago, Capitan Obvious said:

 

I don't know about the death count either as it can easily be skewed. Show me the number of people that died from COVID vs the number of people that died for one or more causes that also had COVID as a contributer. For example, (and you can Google this) back in the summer it was reported in Florida that a man died in a motorcycle crash. Turns out he also had COVID so they counted it as a COVID death. The doctor claimed "well, it could be argued that COVID caused him to crash". 

 

I'd like to see them report the number of COVID-only deaths along with the number of deaths that also had COVID.

Are deaths unrelated to COVID-19 being marked as COVID-19? (abc15.com)