Norwegian is looking into Covid-19 vaccine requirement

[nomad098]

1 hour ago, DCGuy64 said:

I think you're comparing apples to oranges here. And I'm not saying I think you're wrong, but I think you may be failing to see the difference between consumer protection laws and health regulations.

The scenarios you outlined above regarding excursions and flights are largely convenience issues, whereas COVID-19 is a deadly, global pandemic affecting the entire world. If NCL adds a vaccine requirement, that (to me, at least) isn't in the same category as, say, a cruise line substituting a different island on its itinerary, failing to give you OBC, free drinks, etc (in other words, things that are nice to have but aren't in the same class as a potentially lifesaving vaccine). I would be frankly very shocked if someone prevailed in court because he demanded a cash refund after refusing to sail due to a belated vaccine requirement. If the UK doesn't allow tour operators to make reasonable adjustments based on health and safety, I'd be quite surprised. But I will note this: to the extent that UK bookings allow for refunds in cases like you mention, that represents a cost to the cruise line, because it's not able to offer only FCC and must give a cash refund. That cost to the cruise line is probably why UK bookings don't allow refundable deposits. If the cruise line stands to lose, then so do its passengers. Can't have the good without the bad.

 

The law does not distinguish between a life saving vaccine and a drinks package when it comes to a companies terms and conditions and consumer law.

 

Health requirements are set by countries, cruise policies are set by companies in accordance with the law, two separate issues at the moment when it comes to a cruise holiday.

 

If you check section 9, I suppose it comes down to the requirement to be injected with a experimental vaccine, which is only authorised for emergency medical use, is considered an insignificant change to their policies or a significant one. Even when approved would a vaccine requirement by a cruise line but not a country be a significant change to the contract for anyone who booked before the requirement.

https://www.ncl.com/uk/en/about-us/terms-conditions-uk

 

Personally I would be very surprised if a judge did not side with a customer who booked before the requirement and did not want to take a covid-19 vaccine. Book after the requirement is introduced and you accept the policy. 

 

This is the relevant law https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/634/contents/made

 

The original post was to do with NCL being able to do pretty much anything they want because somebody signed a contract this may be true in the US but is not true everywhere.

 

I have no issues with a company making a vaccine requirement and I will happily take the Astrazeneca or J&J vaccines but I do not want the Pfizer or Moderna it's a personal choice. 

 

[nomad098]

14 minutes ago, graphicguy said:

@nomad098

 

I think you may want to look at your NCL contract terms you agreed to when you booked/paid your fares.  I can absolutely guarantee you would not get a refund of your fare because you may or may not have been able to keep an excursion time/date.  Further, I can guarantee you won’t be able to get a refund because you had to change your dining reservations.

 

Taking NCL to court because they required (for example) a vaccine, which would be for the good of all the other passengers, even though it wasn’t required when you booked, would be an interesting exercise I think.

 

If you want to cruise, at least in the relatively near future, you’re going to need proof you had the vaccine.  If you refuse, and decide to ask for a refund (even though the contract states you agree by paying the fare, you agree to the terms), let us know how and if that works.  I’d like to know how they handle someone agreeing to a contract that states requirements may change, and you state you don’t care about that contract.

 

Seriously, I’d like to know.

 

The terms I agreed to when I booked in the EU for a EU cruise weren’t dissimilar to the ones I’ve seen booking in the U.S. for a Caribbean cruise.  I don’t know that they required a different cruise contract for me, as they didn’t know I was a U.S. citizen when I booked the cruise.

 

That's the Law https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/634/contents/made 

 

Thats a NCL 2020 cruise contract pay attention to section 9

https://www.ncl.com/sites/default/files/FINAL_NCL_Master_GTC_UK_as_of_1May20_final.pdf

 

A vaccination requirement would be a significant change there has never been a vaccine requirement to board a cruise ship only to enter a country. 

 

All the information you need 

[graphicguy]

3 minutes ago, nomad098 said:

 

That's the Law https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/634/contents/made 

 

Thats a NCL 2020 cruise contract pay attention to section 9

https://www.ncl.com/sites/default/files/FINAL_NCL_Master_GTC_UK_as_of_1May20_final.pdf

 

A vaccination requirement would be a significant change there has never been a vaccine requirement to board a cruise ship only to enter a country. 

 

All the information you need 

I saw that.  It's similar to the one I saw a couple of years ago.  Seems Items 9, 10, 11, 13 were relevant.  I think what you consider significant and what NCL considers significant might differ.  NCL is probably referring to a dropped port, a change in cabin, etc.  Plus, I think the other items outline a scenario which stipulates a schedule of refunds available to you, depending on when you cancel your cruise.

 

Again, if you're requesting a refund, I'd like to know what happens once you get a response from NCL.

[DCGuy64]

3 hours ago, nomad098 said:

 

The law does not distinguish between a life saving vaccine and a drinks package when it comes to a companies terms and conditions and consumer law.

 

Health requirements are set by countries, cruise policies are set by companies in accordance with the law, two separate issues at the moment when it comes to a cruise holiday.

 

If you check section 9, I suppose it comes down to the requirement to be injected with a experimental vaccine, which is only authorised for emergency medical use, is considered an insignificant change to their policies or a significant one. Even when approved would a vaccine requirement by a cruise line but not a country be a significant change to the contract for anyone who booked before the requirement.

https://www.ncl.com/uk/en/about-us/terms-conditions-uk

 

Personally I would be very surprised if a judge did not side with a customer who booked before the requirement and did not want to take a covid-19 vaccine. Book after the requirement is introduced and you accept the policy. 

 

This is the relevant law https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/634/contents/made

 

The original post was to do with NCL being able to do pretty much anything they want because somebody signed a contract this may be true in the US but is not true everywhere.

 

I have no issues with a company making a vaccine requirement and I will happily take the Astrazeneca or J&J vaccines but I do not want the Pfizer or Moderna it's a personal choice. 

 

Thanks for providing those links. I don't have the time to read all of that right now, as I'm working and trying to prepare for Christmas. If I have time by the end of next week, I may give it a go. But my gut feeling is that the cruise lines can and will require people to get vaccinated as a condition of being able to sail. I wish you the best of luck in getting your money back since you consider this to be a significant change, and I hope your solicitor agrees with you.

[CruiseMH]

On 12/17/2020 at 9:27 PM, graphicguy said:

Can't understand how the contracts are against the law if you accept the terms once you book your cruise?  If the contract states that you accept that NCL can alter requirements, and you agreed to that by booking the cruise, how is that above the law?

 

Seems you missunderstood me. It is for sure not against the law that NCL(or whichever company) can adjust some things after your booking. But there are countries where there are limits regarding changes. You don`t have to accept every change they do.

E.g. in germany the big question is always  "would i have booked the cruise if i new that i had to get vaccinated(or whichever other medical or social process)." And if the answer is  "no"  then you are allowed to cancel the cruise and get back your money.

Of course therefore you have to start a lawsuit but as a forced vaccination in many countries counts as interference with the physical integrity there is a good chance that they would win the lawsuit. So i am absolutely sure that at least in germany and some other countries you have the right to cancel the cruise and get back your money if you don`t want to get vaccinated. I would but there might be some people that would not.

[roger001]

41 minutes ago, CruiseMH said:

 

Seems you missunderstood me. It is for sure not against the law that NCL(or whichever company) can adjust some things after your booking. But there are countries where there are limits regarding changes. You don`t have to accept every change they do.

E.g. in germany the big question is always  "would i have booked the cruise if i new that i had to get vaccinated(or whichever other medical or social process)." And if the answer is  "no"  then you are allowed to cancel the cruise and get back your money.

Of course therefore you have to start a lawsuit but as a forced vaccination in many countries counts as interference with the physical integrity there is a good chance that they would win the lawsuit. So i am absolutely sure that at least in germany and some other countries you have the right to cancel the cruise and get back your money if you don`t want to get vaccinated. I would but there might be some people that would not.

I'm not sure this is the same but.....As a Bermuda cruise returned to Boston with us after completing the cruise, the group of guests waiting to board for the next Bermuda trip were suddenly told, "We're not going to Bermuda now.  We're going to Canada instead".  A hurricane was unfortunately now forecast to block the Bermuda sailing.  There was no offer for a refund.  Just take it or leave it.  Like Covid, the hurricane was not at all forecast to occur back when most of the folks booked that cruise.  However, as contained in the guest contract, an unusual condition did occur that required NCL to alter the conditions of the cruise.  The guests were stuck with a trip to Canada or a trip back home with their money lost.  Kinda the same???   I think?????

[nomad098]

39 minutes ago, roger001 said:

I'm not sure this is the same but.....As a Bermuda cruise returned to Boston with us after completing the cruise, the group of guests waiting to board for the next Bermuda trip were suddenly told, "We're not going to Bermuda now.  We're going to Canada instead".  A hurricane was unfortunately now forecast to block the Bermuda sailing.  There was no offer for a refund.  Just take it or leave it.  Like Covid, the hurricane was not at all forecast to occur back when most of the folks booked that cruise.  However, as contained in the guest contract, an unusual condition did occur that required NCL to alter the conditions of the cruise.  The guests were stuck with a trip to Canada or a trip back home with their money lost.  Kinda the same???   I think?????

 

Funnily enough i remember this and I also remember quite a few complaints went in to ABTA.

 

For UK and EU bookings they should have been offered the option before the cruise to take the cruise as amended or cancel for a full refund. This did not happen.

 

I know that after this happened that it was clarified by ABTA that if more than two thirds of ports are missed or substituted this constituted a significant change and the passenger was entitled to a full refund/credit before the cruise

 

Once the cruise has started any changes would have to be beyond the cruise lines control like a hurricane changing course or civil unrest.

 

I had friends on I think it was the NCL Star out in Asia that had mechanical issues they were offered compensation but took the matter to ABTA they received a full refund and a large amount of future cruise credit which they left with NCL as they vowed never to cruise again.

 

The rules that apply to US bookings do not necessarily apply to bookings in other markets

 

The requirement for a vaccine is a foreseen event and significant change in policy to keep people safe this is why I can see them offering refunds to those who cannot get the vaccine this year in the UK and EU markets. Assuming vaccine becomes a requirement it's still not certain.

 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/a-change-was-made-to-my-cruise-itinerary-can-i-get-a-refund

[4774Papa]

On 12/10/2020 at 2:14 PM, nomad098 said:

 

So

no families with kids under 18

no medically unable to have a vaccine and that covers quite a few people

no pregnant women 

no breast feeding women 

no women planning on having kids in the near future

 

That's got to equal between 35% to 45% families alone equal 30% of the market

 

Add to that those that choose not to get vaccinated 15% to 20%

 

so a conservative 50% to 60% of the cruise lines customers unable to cruise.

 

And this does not take into account that healthy under 50's may not be offered the vaccine dependent on the outcome of the initial phased roll out in the UK may be different elsewhere.

 

It may prove difficult to even half fill all the ships cruise lines have which is not very profitable.

 

Good points, if the vaccine is required to cruise, there will be some in the population that will not be able to cruise.

However, my sense is that people that cruise a lot and travel will be more likely to get the vaccine than not.  Everyone of our friends that we have met on cruises or others we know locally all would take the vaccine in order to travel.  I believe that if some cruise lined opt not to require vaccinations that it would attract the  more risky traveler (without a vaccine) and many cruisers would be less interested in cruising with those lines.

[nomad098]

56 minutes ago, 4774Papa said:

Good points, if the vaccine is required to cruise, there will be some in the population that will not be able to cruise.

However, my sense is that people that cruise a lot and travel will be more likely to get the vaccine than not.  Everyone of our friends that we have met on cruises or others we know locally all would take the vaccine in order to travel.  I believe that if some cruise lined opt not to require vaccinations that it would attract the  more risky traveler (without a vaccine) and many cruisers would be less interested in cruising with those lines.

 

I see cunard are already restricting those who can sail due to medical conditions

 

https://www.cunard.com/en-gb/the-cunard-experience/sailing-with-confidence

 

https://www.cunard.com/content/dam/cunard/marketing-assets/pdf/health-advisory-letters/CN02601_HealthAdvisoryForm_UK_Final.pdf

 

How many more conditions will be added?

Will conditions be added even if you have had the vaccine?

 

Still a lot of unknowns?

 

Wales has just been given six hours notice that the planned lockdown set for the 28th December has been brought forward to midnight tonight due to a new variant of the virus.

[CruiseMH]

4 hours ago, roger001 said:

I'm not sure this is the same but.....As a Bermuda cruise returned to Boston with us after completing the cruise, the group of guests waiting to board for the next Bermuda trip were suddenly told, "We're not going to Bermuda now.  We're going to Canada instead".  A hurricane was unfortunately now forecast to block the Bermuda sailing.  There was no offer for a refund.  Just take it or leave it.  Like Covid, the hurricane was not at all forecast to occur back when most of the folks booked that cruise.  However, as contained in the guest contract, an unusual condition did occur that required NCL to alter the conditions of the cruise.  The guests were stuck with a trip to Canada or a trip back home with their money lost.  Kinda the same???   I think?????

There were some cruise ships that prooved that you can do cruising during covid-19 without a vaccine and still be safe.

So there is no necessarity for a vaccination to operate a cruise ship. In case of a hurrican the situation is a bit different. Cause firstly you can fight a virus successfully with the right measures.Fighting a hurricane is impossivle.And secondly because NCL had only a few hours to find an alternative.For cruises in 2021 NCL hat several months of time to develop a safety concept for cruising without vaccination.

Of course it is much safer but not necessary.So i see no chances for NCL to insist of any fees for cancelling the cruise.(at least in countries with strict laws that protect the rights of the customers)

But i might be wrong and depending on the local laws it can be a different situation in other countries (in the US it is definitely different and customers will have to take it or leave it)

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by CruiseMH

[david_sobe]

I assume everyone saw what happened on that LA flight were a passenger was so sick with Covid that he died on the plane.  The EMT who tried to save his life aboard the plane now has severe symptoms.  Its so ridiculous how selfish people are and put everyone at risk.  This will no doubt happen on cruises too.  People are sick yet know they cant cancel and get a refund so they board, get really sick, and quarantine everyone.  Why is everyone so darn selfish.  There would be no mask debate if a mask prevented yourself from the virus.  Everyone would wear one.  But people claim its a "freedom" issue and claim they are not sick while spreading it to everyone.  We don't have a cure for selfishness unfortunately.  Now everyone on this plane is greatly exposed.

 

EMT Gives CPR To Suspected Coronavirus Patient On LAX-Bound Flight, Now Feeling Symptoms – CBS Los Angeles (cbslocal.com)

[Charles4515]

35 minutes ago, david_sobe said:

I assume everyone saw what happened on that LA flight were a passenger was so sick with Covid that he died on the plane.  The EMT who tried to save his life aboard the plane now has severe symptoms.  Its so ridiculous how selfish people are and put everyone at risk.  This will no doubt happen on cruises too.  People are sick yet know they cant cancel and get a refund so they board, get really sick, and quarantine everyone.  Why is everyone so darn selfish.  There would be no mask debate if a mask prevented yourself from the virus.  Everyone would wear one.  But people claim its a "freedom" issue and claim they are not sick while spreading it to everyone.  We don't have a cure for selfishness unfortunately.  Now everyone on this plane is greatly exposed.

 

EMT Gives CPR To Suspected Coronavirus Patient On LAX-Bound Flight, Now Feeling Symptoms – CBS Los Angeles (cbslocal.com)

 

If news reports are to be believed some who are on ventilators and their death bed have claimed they don’t have Covid.

[hallux]

@david_sobeall this does is reinforce that Americans are selfish and no amount of restrictions, guidelines or other measures will protect us from each other. 

 

What I mean is this - "The passenger’s wife later revealed that her husband had symptoms of coronavirus before getting on the flight and was heading home to get tested."

 

If you're experiencing symptoms you DON'T GET ON A FLIGHT!  I get it - you might be more comfortable at home, but putting 200 others at risk (not to mention the numerous people you interact with at the airport) to do that when you already have symptoms?!  That's pure selfishness and lack of consideration for others!  That couple should have stayed where they were and gotten tested there rather than hopping on a cross-country flight.

Edited December 20, 2020 by hallux

[deliver42]

I will find the cruise lines and airlines that will require vaccinations. I thin that all public modes of transportation will require the vaccine. I'm, of course, talking about private companies, not municiple or state owned.

[david_sobe]

1 hour ago, Charles4515 said:

 

If news reports are to be believed some who are on ventilators and their death bed have claimed they don’t have Covid.

Seriously?    People on ventilators cant speak.

The bots are here trying to claim Covid is a hoax.

[sverigecruiser]

On 12/18/2020 at 4:45 PM, graphicguy said:

@nomad098

The terms I agreed to when I booked in the EU for a EU cruise weren’t dissimilar to the ones I’ve seen booking in the U.S. for a Caribbean cruise.  I don’t know that they required a different cruise contract for me, as they didn’t know I was a U.S. citizen when I booked the cruise.

 

Are you sure that they didn't knew that you was a U.S. citizen? If I remember correct I have always provided passport information when booking a cruise so my citizenship has always been known for the cruiseline.

[ace2542]

7 hours ago, hallux said:

That's pure selfishness and lack of consideration for others! 

Don't you mean reckless endangerment or even depraved indifference murder 2? I do love your laws btw.

[cruisequeen4ever]

I hope that they do not require a vaccine because some people cannot get it due to allergies or other medical conditions, and then of course children can’t get it, thus eliminating quite a few potential passengers!

[surfone]

The surgeon general nominee just announced a prediction of mid summer to early fall by the time the general public will get a chance at vaccinations.  So if he is correct then the average person will not be able to cruise until the end of the year at the earliest if cruise lines require proof of the vaccine.

[hallux]

58 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

Don't you mean reckless endangerment or even depraved indifference murder 2? I do love your laws btw.

Well, sure, if you want to put a legal term on it.

[fshagan]

On 12/11/2020 at 8:41 AM, Capitan Obvious said:

 

Not the point. The issue is that there is no differention betweens deaths actually caused by COVID vs deaths caused by "X" in people who ALSO have COVID. IOW, it is being taken as COVID is the cause, not even considering the other condition(s) which may actually be at fault.

 

Just look at excess deaths for the time period. It takes months to compile the data so we don't have it for recent months, but already there are deaths above the expected death rate for months in the early part of the year. They exceed the official Covid numbers. In a year or two we'll also have the "years lost" from early deaths.

 

Many of these objections are debate club arguments that don't bear on reality. It's fun, but not useful.

 

Cruise lines  will figure out a way for people to identify as having taken the vaccine, because even if people who CAN'T take the vaccine are excluded, like pregnant women, people with health issues that prevent vaccines, etc., there will be more people boarding than there are now.

[StarAFire]

On 12/20/2020 at 8:50 AM, hallux said:

@david_sobeall this does is reinforce that Americans are selfish and no amount of restrictions, guidelines or other measures will protect us from each other. 

 

What I mean is this - "The passenger’s wife later revealed that her husband had symptoms of coronavirus before getting on the flight and was heading home to get tested."

 

If you're experiencing symptoms you DON'T GET ON A FLIGHT!  I get it - you might be more comfortable at home, but putting 200 others at risk (not to mention the numerous people you interact with at the airport) to do that when you already have symptoms?!  That's pure selfishness and lack of consideration for others!  That couple should have stayed where they were and gotten tested there rather than hopping on a cross-country flight.

 

Actually, from the articles I read... they knew he had covid and he lied on the paperwork to united.  The articles said his wife was telling folks he tested positive for covid the week prior!

[warburg]

There are people who are unable to take vaccines for health reasons. For example, my sister nearly died from a flu shot reaction, ending up in the ICU.  She is a nurse and was advised by her doctors to avoid flu vaccines. For people in the same situation, negative covid tests should be enough. If everyone is covid free at boarding, and excursions are led by the healthy, there should be no problem.

 

No vaccine is perfect, and there are none for some really terrible illnesses. Think AIDS and ALS. Perhaps common sense and reasonable care are the way to go. Disease has plagued humanity since our beginning. Yet, with 7.3 billion of us alive today, we thrive on. Thanks to social media, there are no secrets. Sooner or later everything gets published somewhere. Let's see how the cruise industry's story  reads in 2021. I hope it includes Bon Voyage.

Mary

Edited December 28, 2020 by warburg
missing numeral

[armwinder]

Not to be argumentative but will passengers prefer to board a ship knowing all other passengers and crew have been vaccinated? Personally I would feel safer bellying up to the bar and exchanges pleasantries with someone alongside me who hopefully is not infected. We know not everyone is eligible for the vaccination and yet if not the cruise line other countries may not allow non vaccinated folks off the ship even if the ship is allowed to even dock. Will insurance companies charge a premium for non vaccinated individuals when it comes to medical travel insurance the same as they do for smokers and others with underlying problems? When I was working I traveled to countries that require vaccinations for yellow fever, malaria, smallpox etc..  No getting around it if you want to go there you have no choice but to be vaccinated.   Just saying,

[hallux]

36 minutes ago, armwinder said:

other countries may not allow non vaccinated folks off the ship even if the ship is allowed to even dock

I really think this will be the driving force.  If the countries the cruise lines plan to visit will require vaccinations for visitors then the cruise lines won't have much choice but to require one for boarding.

 

Something that has yet to be revealed - if a vaccinated person comes in contact with an infected person, can the vaccinated person pass the virus to another non-vaccinated person, or to another vaccinated person who can then transmit it to someone else?